Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #1

[otto]

This is the most detail I've read, so as a starting point I have to wonder what this means.

"Sources say investigators found the Shermans, side by side, in their windowless pool room, each with a men’s leather belt wrapped around their necks and tied to the pool railing. Both had on jackets that were pulled “behind their backs” and rolled down over their arms.

It is believed the camera in the pool area had been disconnected."​

http://torontosun.com/news/local-news/warmington-mystery-shrouds-deaths-of-billionaire-couple

The camera was disconnected. Does this mean that the pool area is the only part of the house that is a crime scene? Was it disconnected locally or electronically? If it was disconnected locally, my guess is that someone had to know exactly where the camera was to avoid being captured on camera. If it was disconnected electronically, there has to be an electronic identity associated with disabling the camera. Either way, it suggests that a murder scenario means that the murderer was familiar with the house and camera or surveillance system locations. The same applies with a murder suicide scenario.

However, there is still the question of how the belts were introduced to the scene. If the only disabled camera is in the pool area, there must be surveillance of someone getting the belts from the closet, OR the belts were brought to the scene by a third party. Were they Barry's belts?

The couple is posed at the pool, presumably looking over the water. They were headed to Florida separately within a week of each other. Is this location of looking out over the pool significant? I think this could mean revenge murder or murder suicide.

Their arms were restrained. Is it possible to restrain their own arms with a jacket and to then hang themselves? I think it's possible, but it means that someone went to an awful lot of trouble to stage a double murder. If Barry murdered his wife and then decided to commit suicide, was it important to him that it appear as a double murder for religious reasons.

 

[Websleuthbc]

Not related, but perhaps also not unrelated, fwiw, speculation
https://www.cp24.com/news/synagogues-in-toronto-hamilton-montreal-receive-hate-mail-1.3728073.

i had mentioned the anti-semetic and/or israel angle... the shermans were perhaps the most high profile and most giving israel supporters in canada. or at least that's my take.

but i don't see that there'd be no/little evidence of their actions at the crime scene. forced entry, stabbing, some sort of major statement.

i think if not murder/suicide then someone they know and weren't extremely threatened by.

seems like a mess. you'd think there'd be security cameras everywhere.... another billionaire jewish couple in toronto had ex-mossad agents following them around i believe. and i mean before this happened.

 

[Elley Mae]

This is the most detail I've read, so as a starting point I have to wonder what this means.

"Sources say investigators found the Shermans, side by side, in their windowless pool room, each with a men’s leather belt wrapped around their necks and tied to the pool railing. Both had on jackets that were pulled “behind their backs” and rolled down over their arms.

It is believed the camera in the pool area had been disconnected."​

http://torontosun.com/news/local-news/warmington-mystery-shrouds-deaths-of-billionaire-couple

The camera was disconnected. Does this mean that the pool area is the only part of the house that is a crime scene? Was it disconnected locally or electronically? If it was disconnected locally, my guess is that someone had to know exactly where the camera was to avoid being captured on camera. If it was disconnected electronically, there has to be an electronic identity associated with disabling the camera. Either way, it suggests that a murder scenario means that the murderer was familiar with the house and camera or surveillance system locations. The same applies with a murder suicide scenario.

However, there is still the question of how the belts were introduced to the scene. If the only disabled camera is in the pool area, there must be surveillance of someone getting the belts from the closet, OR the belts were brought to the scene by a third party. Were they Barry's belts?

The couple is posed at the pool, presumably looking over the water. They were headed to Florida separately within a week of each other. Is this location of looking out over the pool significant? I think this could mean revenge murder or murder suicide.

Their arms were restrained. Is it possible to restrain their own arms with a jacket and to then hang themselves? I think it's possible, but it means that someone went to an awful lot of trouble to stage a double murder. If Barry murdered his wife and then decided to commit suicide, was it important to him that it appear as a double murder for religious reasons.

About the disconnected camera, if the sherman’s by chance swam in the nude they may have disconnected it. I would.

 

[Websleuthbc]

The Winter boys each received about $350,000 from their parents' estate. Their mother wanted them to be raised in the Jewish faith (she was a convert) and so she stipulated that they not be raised by relatives (odd: her relatives weren't Jewish but her husband's were, so why did she not want the boys to be raised by their father's family?) They were adopted by strangers who did not treat them well and used most of their inheritance for their living expenses - the boys squandered the remainder when they came of age. They have struggled as adults - Barry Sherman helped them by buying them houses and giving substantial amounts of cash - but I'm not sure that more money would be the answer to their problems.

Over the years, they have tried to settle but Barry always refused, referring to their lawsuit as extortion. The boys filed an appeal after they lost the lawsuit in September - I wonder, with Barry and Honey both gone, if the executors of the estate will be more willing to settle and give the boys a large amount just to close the file.

good comments... i've seen the suggestions that some of the relatives wanted a billion dollars.. it's like everything where you'd have to know the exact history to know whether one of mr sherman's prime motivations for selling x company and starting y company a year or two later was to get away from those obligations. and of course what form were the obligations? the $$$$ were probably contractual. but i'm assume the employment promise was just verbal and general

.. absolutely no need for executors to give them any $$$$. the courts sided with Mr. Sherman twice and now there is likely much less emotional attachment to the case from the Sherman's estate.

as to the police i would they'd have training and common sense to be able to figure out how/where the hands/arms were tied and what the inferences of that is. sorry, poor grammar.

 

[Elley Mae]

Both had on jackets that were pulled “behind their backs” and rolled down over their arms.

http://torontosun.com/news/local-news/warmington-mystery-shrouds-deaths-of-billionaire-couple

How does one hang themself w/ jacket pulled behind their back and rolled down over their arms? Which do you do first.?

Quoting my post for newcomers.

How does one hang oneself w/ hands bound behind your back?

 

[BUF]

Thank you for posting this. I found the entire interview at the link below. It is in the second half of the show--haven't listened to all of it yet, but he just started talking about the tweet.

https://omny.fm/shows/bill-kelly-show/the-mayors-townhall-and-honey-and-barry-sherman

Thanks for posting the 'whole' interview.

I think what Warmington was trying to say is they each had belts wrapped around their necks & then tied to the railing (with a rope). He also said he was told there was a second crime scene (involving the wife). I also found it interesting that he said staff was at the house, but no one had gone down to the pool...could a staff person have let in someone posing as maybe a repair person?

This is such a sad story any way you look at it. Their children must be totally devastated at the loss of both parents and also to have it played out in the news this way.

https://omny.fm/shows/bill-kelly-show/the-mayors-townhall-and-honey-and-barry-sherman



http://torontosun.com/news/local-news/warmington-mystery-shrouds-deaths-of-billionaire-couple

...in their windowless pool room, each with a men’s leather belt wrapped around their necks and tied to the pool rail...

 

[Websleuthbc]

Do you think we'll get more leaks from "unnamed sources" before the funeral? Just the fact that things are leaked when they shouldn't be causes me to question the motive and truthfulness of the leak.

i personally think it's going to be very slow going from here.......... they've directly and indirectly got the interim finding out there.. now, there's just a massive undertaking of checking out all kinds of disjointed info.... it may very well come down to them not figuring out exactly what happened.

 

[otto]

About the disconnected camera, if the sherman’s by chance swam in the nude they may have disconnected it. I would.

Why have a camera in the pool area if it's always disconnected? I suppose it's possible.

From the same article, police say Mrs. Sherman may have been murdered elsewhere and moved to the pool area. Were there drag marks on carpets? Is "moved from another location" the explanation for her jacked being rolled down over her arms? Was it only her jacket that was pulled down over her arms? Are police thinking that she was strangled with a belt in another room and then dragged to the pool room by the belt?

"What we know:

– The Shermans died Thursday inside their 12,440 square-foot Old Colony Rd. mansion which was up for sale for $6.9 million.
– They were not found until 11:45 a.m. Friday.
– There was no sign of forced entry and no suicide note.
– The Shermans were planning to build a new home in Forest Hill.
– Toronto Police said they are not currently looking for suspects.
– The couple had scheduled trip this week to Florida.
– Autopsies Saturday and Sunday indicate the Sherman’s died from “ligature neck compression”
Sources say police believe they are dealing with a murder-suicide and that Mrs. Sherman’s body may have been moved from a secondary scene inside the home to the pool room."

http://torontosun.com/news/local-news/warmington-mystery-shrouds-deaths-of-billionaire-couple

 

[drama_farmer]

Here's my burning question: What were they wearing when found?

Here's my burning question: were their hands/feet bound?

ETA: already being discussed!

 

[JayFriend]

i had mentioned the anti-semetic and/or israel angle... the shermans were perhaps the most high profile and most giving israel supporters in canada. or at least that's my take.

but i don't see that there'd be no/little evidence of their actions at the crime scene. forced entry, stabbing, some sort of major statement.

i think if not murder/suicide then someone they know and weren't extremely threatened by.

seems like a mess. you'd think there'd be security cameras everywhere.... another billionaire jewish couple in toronto had ex-mossad agents following them around i believe. and i mean before this happened.

If this was Islamic terrorism, wouldn't they be claiming responsibility?

 

[Canterbury Tales]

I

Maybe someone took advantage of the bad blood between Sherman and his cousins, and went in for the kill, thinking the cousins would be the top suspects. Who stood to benefit the most? This was a hit. The usual suspects have strong alibis. Who would know the Shermans were about to go to Florida? Who would know about the surveillance camera in the basement and possibly disable it. If there were no signs of forced entry, the Shermans knew them and let them in. Would the Shermans let any of the cousins inside of the house? I don't think so. Any competitors? Nope. It's someone they were very familiar with.

Yes, good points. It seems to me like somebody who was aware of the layout of the house and who knew the Shermans intimately was involved in this crime(either by themselves or hired a hit.) I don't know if the cousins were ever in the house and were familiar with the layout. It seems like they haven't been on good terms for a very long time but Sherman was paying them money for years and years and paid their mortgages, set them up in businesses, etc. so they may have been in that house?
If not the cousins, it sure seems to me like it could be one or more of the children or their spouses/partners, i.e. people very familiar with the Shermans' home and their activities from day to day. Also, they are the ones who would benefit the most directly from the Sherman fortune.

What I'm not sure about is why would the cousins kill Honey as well as Barry? Unless Honey was nasty to them or they felt she was just as involved as Barry was in making sure they didn't receive one more penny and was willing to go to the ends of the Earth to litigate just as Barry was.

I really feel it was one of the cousins or the children and their spouses/partners and that the motive was either revenge(cousins) or money(children.) I'm not sure a mob hit or a business connection hit would have gone down in this way. We'll see what happens.

 

[JayFriend]

Why have a camera in the pool area if it's always disconnected?

Probably if they were in the habit of swimming nude,

 

[Wyle_E_Coyote]

Quoting my post for newcomers.

How does one hang oneself w/ hands bound behind your back?

Careful when checking out links... you may see more than you want to.

http://www.academia.edu/903627/Prec...g_and_Reducing_Pain_in_Suicidal_Hanging_Cases

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/037907388490029X

https://www.arthritisresearch.us/carbon-monoxide/hanging.html

That's all I can do, there's more out there but Google at your own risk. A lot of the sites on this topic are extremely graphic.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

 

[otto]

Probably if they were in the habit of swimming nude,

I think the key to answering double murder, or murder-suicide, is the belts. If they came from inside the house, there must be surveillance of getting the belts. If they came from outside the house, then it is a double murder.

Let's assume that this was a double murder, and the only camera that is disabled is in the pool area. Even if someone entered through the garage, chances are cameras in the garage or near the garage would have captured someone entering the home. Regardless of murders or murder-suicide, a third party had to know that they cameras were disabled.

 

[Elley Mae]

Why have a camera in the pool area if it's always disconnected? I suppose it's possible.

From the same article, police say Mrs. Sherman may have been murdered elsewhere and moved to the pool area. Were there drag marks on carpets? Is "moved from another location" the explanation for her jacked being rolled down over her arms? Was it only her jacket that was pulled down over her arms? Are police thinking that she was strangled with a belt in another room and then dragged to the pool room by the belt?

"What we know:

– The Shermans died Thursday inside their 12,440 square-foot Old Colony Rd. mansion which was up for sale for $6.9 million.
– They were not found until 11:45 a.m. Friday.
– There was no sign of forced entry and no suicide note.
– The Shermans were planning to build a new home in Forest Hill.
– Toronto Police said they are not currently looking for suspects.
– The couple had scheduled trip this week to Florida.
– Autopsies Saturday and Sunday indicate the Sherman’s died from “ligature neck compression”
Sources say police believe they are dealing with a murder-suicide and that Mrs. Sherman’s body may have been moved from a secondary scene inside the home to the pool room."

http://torontosun.com/news/local-news/warmington-mystery-shrouds-deaths-of-billionaire-couple

Could have been a package deal., but could be deactivated.

Some ppl have elevator shafts built in but hold off on the elevator.

 

[Canterbury Tales]

Seems like a very litigious kind of person, almost greedy. From all I've read about the guy, he doesn't seem like a very nice person. Even his business, stealing recipes for other companies drugs and selling them cheaper. Really just seems like a bit of a dick in my opinion.

Unfortunately, in this world when it comes to succeeding in business at a very high level, you can't be nice all the time. You have to be ruthless and stick to your convictions because a lot of people will try and take advantage of your wealth and try and leech off you. Just because he was litigious, doesn't mean he wasn't a good person. He was a billionaire in a cut-throat business. He had to be extremely ruthless and that isn't necessarily a bad thing IMO.

 

[gdalton]

About the disconnected camera, if the sherman’s by chance swam in the nude they may have disconnected it. I would.

Yeah, I don't know why they'd have a camera in there in the first place. If I pointed a camera at our hot tub, it would get disconnected pretty quick.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

 

[Canterbury Tales]

Thanks for the link. Kerry states very explicitly that his motivation for suing his cousin was revenge, and does he ever come across as bitter and vindictive. Losing the lawsuit must have been a huge, huge blow.

Yes, he seemed extremely vindictive, bitter and obsessed. A very obvious suspect.

 

[Jasper52]

Careful when checking out links... you may see more than you want to.

http://www.academia.edu/903627/Prec...g_and_Reducing_Pain_in_Suicidal_Hanging_Cases

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/037907388490029X

https://www.arthritisresearch.us/carbon-monoxide/hanging.html

That's all I can do, there's more out there but Google at your own risk. A lot of the sites on this topic are extremely graphic.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

I really suggest not looking at these. I found somebody hanging 25 years ago. I was in extreme shock for about 8 months - my weight went down to 45 lbs (I was in my early thirties at the time). I've been on sleep meds for 25 years now and that image is forever burned into my mind.

 

[Canterbury Tales]

"..-what is it about the crime scene that would lead police to believe that it was a murder suicide when it clearly appears to be a double homicide?.."

Because a murder/suicide is more plausible imo. They both died of ligature neck compression, so I'm assuming they died by hanging, not strangled before and then hanged.
Think about how difficult it would be for a number of assailants (there would have to be more then one) to hang both of them until they died.

Given the facts, a murder-suicide is not more plausible. <modsnip> IMO. These two people tied jackets around their backs to act as a makeshift straitjacket and then hung themselves? <modsnip>

Ligature neck compression does not necessarily mean they died from hanging. They could have had somebody strangle them with a belt or rope and then hang them to make it appear like a double suicide or murder-suicide. Of somebody(likely two people), held them at gunpoint and put the jackets around them, put the belts around their necks and hung them.

I don't know how anybody could still think this was a murder-suicide or double suicide given all of the facts. JMO.