Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #6

[AllyJane]

That's not even close to being right, the Shermans donated tens of millions to charity.

Plus BS gave the orphans $15 million dollars over the years. They also have wealthy adoptive parents so you have to wonder why they ended up with little money. Is continuously throwing money at people who mismanage it, really helping them or an obligation? Also he called back the money he gave KW when KW falsely accused him of killing his father. KW was given everything to build a renovation business and failed. BS also gave money to JD for his mortgage ($3M) and FD for his movies. Sounds like BS was more of a soft touch to a lot of people who had their hands out.

I dont think we know the extensive story of the contract and why the courts ruled in BS's favour. I don't think it is so cut and dry that he sold the company and was no longer obligated.

 

[Grey-St]

I agree with you too, Grey. In fact I posted similarly on the last thread. I wondered what their future might have been if the Winters kids had known from an early age about the opportunity they had and if they had been mentored. It’s possible they would have had motivation to qualify to work in the company. It might have given them a focus and hope as they grew up. For me, the finer points of the contract that Barry weaseled out of are a moral, not a legal issue. He did a terrible thing to those defenseless children.

Yes, he threw money at them later, when they reconnected due to a chance encounter. But that’s not the same thing as respectfully honoring the spirit of the agreement from the beginning, and helping those kids to adulthood by at least letting their adoptive parents know the terms of the contract. By the time he started giving them money, it was too late to make it right.

Barry was clearly a nihilist, by his own admission in his book, and he looked out for Barry. Period. He did not have the children’s interests at heart. I don’t blame them for being upset initially. Yes, everyone, including the Winters boys needed to do things differently. Barry and Honey didn’t deserve to be murdered. But if you deliberately hurt enough people to achieve your own ends, it’s no surprise when it happens. The only question is “Which enemy got to them first?”
JMO

I agree, and with what I know about child and adolescent development, which is quite a bit from my field of work, I do believe that the children were let down by the adults around them.

"Which enemy got to the first" truly is the question. May the rest peacefully.

 

[minorone]

Sphinx "Pamela, you make a very good point. What if Barry really did kill Lou ?"

Louis Winter COD was from an aneurism, so I do not think that BS could have had anything to do with his death. Brian aneurisms are a common COD and surely an autopsy would have been performed.

My mother came from a family of seven and two of her siblings died of aneurisms when they were in their early forties. They both had young families.

ETA: When BS received the call LW has passed, he was told it was a probable aneurism.

 

[JDG]

To me the fact that they did say something instead of keeping taking Barry’s “guaranteed” support money says that they truly believed in their position, and it caused them great anguish. It would have been much easier for them to just say nothing and have Barry’s ongoing support . IMO

But why accuse him of killing your father when its on record that Lou Winter died of an aneurysm?

Thats a bit preposterous, don't you think? Not likely to lead to an agreeable meeting of the minds?

 

[musicaljoke]

However, BS first tricked them out of their inheritance and then he doled out money when he felt it was right. When the cousins figured out what he had done and they sued him for the 5% each of the shares they were due .BS took anything good he had done and took everything back.This didn't just affect the W children,it also would have had an affect on the W kids,children . I personally would not have done it. He took thier homes.....

We also don't know what the W kids would have done with the money. They would not have to be dependant on BS's whim to get money that IMO should have gone to the W kid's in the first place. That would have taken some stress away from them.

All JMO

I don't see that he tricked the children out of their inheritance. I believe that their mother was afraid that he would take over the company at less than it's value, but this didn't happen. Instead, the company was put on the market, and BS' bid was considerably higher than the other offers. The children would have received the money from the purchase of the sale. As a result of BS's offer, they received about 20% more money than they would have if it had gone to the next highest bidder.

BS' original offer of 20% (5% each) in shares to the children was put on the table for one day only, and was very specific in its interpretation. That offer was rejected by the Trustees and not made by BS again.

https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/d...TaGVybWFuIGFuZCB3aW50ZXIAAAAAAQ&resultIndex=2

 

[ldlager]

Asked by the Star if he had ever been to the Old Colony Rd. home where the Shermans were killed, he said he had not.

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada...000-the-week-before-they-were-found-dead.html

thanks BUF, I was going from memory from the Warmington article, but no need for me to find it now!

 

[Grey-St]

And I disagree. That the thing about “morals” is no one agrees what moral is. No objective standard.

Legally, The obligation ended with the original company. Ethically You don’t burden new shareholders with a highly contingent clause from a previous business. If anyone is in the wrong it’s RT for agreeing to something that would be difficult to enforce. I suspect the lawyers, accountants and trust discovered they were in over their heads and wanted to shed themselves if the albatross. JMO

I'm really not concerned with what BS was legally allowed to do. If it was truly too much of a burden to new shareholders, there are other things he could have done to be there for those 4 children, much like how their father was there for BS. I think that they adults around the cousins let them down, including RT. JMO.

 

[AllyJane]

I believe BS in some ways also felt guilty about his money. He lived relatively frugally, didn’t flaunt his wealth, didn’t seem comfortable with it. His mission seemed to only be to make more. . But giving it away was IMO a way for him to not have to become personally involved. AFAIK he never spent a few hours helping in a food bank. Or coaching a kids activity. Or being a Big Brother. Frankly, he rarely even went to his own sons sports games. I am not being critical of him, it’s just that IMO he gave away money at least in part to assuage his guilt regarding his wealth, and he used donations as a way to offset his disinterest in donating his own time and becoming involved at a much more personal level.
I wonder if when he stands before the Pearly Gates how he will be judged. MOO

BS was a workaholic. As well, this can also be a generational thing. My father never went to our games or events because in that day, child rearing was the "job" of the stay at home mom. It doesn't make him a bad father. (Have you ever seen some hockey parents at games? Going to games isn't always a positive thing) I know a lot of generous people who don't go to food banks or be a Big Brother. People make the commitments they can and give in their own way.

Another way to look at it is that he created a company that gave livelihoods to thousands of people. Look at how many employees attended his funeral and how many have spoken so highly of him. That can count for something too.

 

[Grey-St]

You said Barry looked out for Barry, implying that's the only person he looked out for. People who only care about themselves generally don't cut eight figure checks to charity.

I appreciate this point, and appreciate Barry's generosity. Something still just doesn't sit right with me for some reason. JMO.

 

[ldlager]

Not necessarily. Lawyer could have approached the Winter kids with the prospect of a billion dollar lawsuit on contingency which would give the law firm a huge chunk of that, 30-40%. It would have had to be based on contingency because there is no way the kids could have afforded such an expensive lawsuit.

I don't hear anything from KW about how it caused him any anguish at all to sue BS. Just listen to the vitriol, his accusations that BS asked him to murder HS (which polygraphs indicate are a lie.) That is not anguish, that is hate.

I didnt say he felt anguish in suing BS. What I meant was he felt anguish at the situation of never being told of the terms of the deal, and feeling like he and his brothers were cheated. I wouldn’t have felt any anguish in suing him either.

 

[musicaljoke]

I don’t disagree with you, but shouldn’t Royal Trust have had an obligation to inform the children of the agreement about the company and, indeed, serve the children’s best interest?

Yes, indeed. But even if Royal Trust had chosen to accept the offer, which they didn't, the offer didn't include all future companies.

 

[Grey-St]

The killer(s): Someone who had the ability to get in the house, who apparently knew about their security cameras/system; who knew no one else would be present that night; who hated them enough to torture them; who apparently sought to kill both of them. To me, this seems like an inside job -- a family member, a staff member, or a close acquaintance. I don't see this as a big pharma hit. JMO.

I do wonder if HS simply opened the door to whomever it was. *shudder*

 

[JDG]

I don’t disagree with you, but shouldn’t Royal Trust have had an obligation to inform the children of the agreement about the company and, indeed, serve the children’s best interest?

Along with the Official Guardian of Ontarios' office. It was up to both RT and OG to do their fiduciary duty and protect ALL assets of the Winters' when they were children.

Who failed them in that capacity? Seemingly everyone.

BS won in court simply because the clauses were not in perpetuity nor an obligation that was carried from one company to another. That is normal practice, AFAIK.

 

[ldlager]

But why accuse him of killing your father when its on record that Lou Winter died of an aneurysm?

Thats a bit preposterous, don't you think? Not likely to lead to an agreeable meeting of the minds?

agreed absolutely.

 

[AllyJane]

Pamela, you make a very good point. What if Barry really did kill Lou ? That death was the key that opened the door eventually for him to buy Empire. The boys' Mother died of leukemia, but to for Lou to die suddenly at age 41 is rather suspicious unless he had an existing heart condition, or the autopsy proved beyond a doubt that he had a heart defect, or that it was a real heart attack. What now makes me wonder is that Barry knew so much about pharamaceuticals, and experimental ones at that. Me might have even been able to make something in his lab that was untraceable, and would cause a heart attack. This sounds like something out of a murder mystery on tv, I know, but this whole case is so strange, I am just thinking it might have been possible. Maybe as crazy as it sounds, KW could really be on to something true. What a shameful family secret that would be for the Sherman family if it ever came out ! I just hope the medical authorities were really sure about Lou's cause death at the time. Even if it were true, I don't think it was the cause of his and Honey's murder, but if those who ordered the hit knew, it might have made them feel more justified. It also might explain KW's hate and rage. For him it is not all about money. IMO

LW died of an aneuryism. KW has been proven a liar. KW was 4 at the time of his dad's death so I think it is all about the money for him. KW, even though adopted to a wealthy family, is not happy with his life and wants someone to pay. I am not sure why after last night's show, anyone can trust anything KW has to say about BS.

 

[AllyJane]

The killer could have hidden in the shadows near to the top of the ramp, waited for Honey to step out of her car, crept up and put a belt around her neck, hit the garage opener in her car, forced her to walk down the ramp and closed the garage from inside the house.

What I am wondering is if it is true that they both had their coats on. It would then mean that HS was attacked pretty soon after getting home and was bound (either dead or alive) for 3 hours until BS got home .

 

[Power of Two]

I recorded this from tonight's episode on the Fifth Estate. It's at the 33:48 mm.

"On the evening of Wednesday, December 13th, Barry and Honey Sherman headed home for the very last time. Each in their own vehicles, Honey left Apotex at 6 pm and Barry at 8:45 pm. It’s believed neither left the house again."

If this is the case, can someone remind me just when he sent that alleged final email? I thought it was reported to have been sent at 8:30 pm. Would he have sent from his work office?

 

[PaulR]

BS was a workaholic. As well, this can also be a generational thing. My father never went to our games or events because in that day, child rearing was the "job" of the stay at home mom. It doesn't make him a bad father. (Have you ever seen some hockey parents at games? Going to games isn't always a positive thing) I know a lot of generous people who don't go to food banks or be a Big Brother. People make the commitments they can and give in their own way.

Another way to look at it is that he created a company that gave livelihoods to thousands of people. Look at how many employees attended his funeral and how many have spoken so highly of him. That can count for something too.

Many believers in effective altruism would argue that BS should have worked in his job and donated instead of volunteering at the food bank. The amount of money he could earn in a day of working would enable charities to perform a lot more good than if he had taken the day off to help put together bags of food for the needy.

 

[Grey-St]

This is from the Lockport Press version of Warmington's article about the aftermath of KW's police interview.

BBM

The article isn't clear whether the friend knows that KW actually went inside the Sherman residence.

https://lockportpress.com/warmington-sherman-cousin-kerry-winter-speaks-with-toronto-police/

Which is strange, because KW states on The Fifth Estate that he had an uncomfortable conversation with HS in, what I interpreted as, their home.

 

[dotr]

Yes, this has been bothering me as well. I remember it well, because I commented on the use of "hog tied" but the thread was closed shortly thereafter. I am newish here and haven't figured out yet how to quote something from a previous thread. I did take a screenshot, but now find that I can't post that either. Pink Panther was the original member who used the phrase days before it appeared in the media. At the time it seems like they just misunderstood what "hog tied" meant, and thought it just meant the hands were tied behind the back, but now I am much more curious.

Have not yet read all the posts, so this may have already been answered.
First of all, welcome to Ws!
If you want to quote from another thread, just click on the # post number at the top right hand corner of that post, it will bring that post to the forefront, then copy and paste the Websleuth link that appears at the top. Hope that makes sense.
This is the news link reference to " hog tied" comment.
http://torontosun.com/news/local-news/business-rivalry-behind-billionaire-shermans-murder

Inconsistencies obtained from leaked police files now indicate their corpses were moved.

According to an insider close to the investigation, the family’s private investigators discovered signs that both victims’ were hogtied together at one time.