Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #6

[ldlager]

BS was a workaholic. As well, this can also be a generational thing. My father never went to our games or events because in that day, child rearing was the "job" of the stay at home mom. It doesn't make him a bad father. (Have you ever seen some hockey parents at games? Going to games isn't always a positive thing) I know a lot of generous people who don't go to food banks or be a Big Brother. People make the commitments they can and give in their own way.

Another way to look at it is that he created a company that gave livelihoods to thousands of people. Look at how many employees attended his funeral and how many have spoken so highly of him. That can count for something too.

Absolutely. My point was not that he wasn’t generous, only that he chose to give money instead of his personal time. I know many wealthy and very successful people that give both. And I know some that don’t do either. It seems for BS, work was more important than giving his time, that’s all I am saying.

 

[WINDSOR]

BS was very much about Money, Power and Control.

BS arranged a 'sweet deal' with the trustees to take over Empire.

BS, sells Empire to finance new company Apotex, doing the same sort of pharma work. Empire's founder's sons effectively cut out of any part of new business.

BS is very very rich, his charitable donations even though substantial, are a very small part of his net worth. Many websleuths reading this, in terms of their net worth, are more generous than BS was.

BS because he had accountants and tax lawyers, knew the generous tax advantages of donations, and how being charitable gave you power and control. Give lots of money to a political party, the leader will answer your phone calls.

BS had given lots of people money but always secured it with promissory notes. That gave him control over those people.

BS likely could have worked out a deal with his nephews, that would have been satisfactory to all, but he preferred to win in litigation.

BS lent Frank D'Angelo over a $100,000,000.00. BS's son now owns and runs FD's company. FD claims BS and he were best friends. A mafia strategy is to keep lending a legit friend money, until the friend cannot ever pay the money back. The friend then gives his business over to the mafia to control and is ever beholding to the mafia and will do anything for them.

If you look at the movies FD has made they are about organized crime characters. Maybe FD is on the suspect list for Law Enforcement.

I doubt KW had anything to do with the murders of BS & HS

Passion was involved with these murders (hate, revenge, justice) so I tend to think the deaths were instigated by somebody who had a personal relationship with the Shermans, not a business entity.

My list of POI's would include the relatives; employees and partners, past or present; somebody feeling the 'screws' from BS.

Who recently just had their notes called for payment?

 

[ldlager]

Many believers in effective altruism would argue that BS should have worked in his job and donated instead of volunteering at the food bank. The amount of money he could earn in a day of working would enable charities to perform a lot more good than if he had taken the day off to help put together bags of food for the needy.

I Doubt his son Jonathan would agree. Given the choice of having his dad see his hockey game or having his dad spend another night at work, I don’t think Jonathan would choose the latter. Not saying Barry didn’t do a lot with his money for people. Just that he gave with money instead of time. Imo

 

[PaulR]

Yes, indeed. But even if Royal Trust had chosen to accept the offer, which they didn't, the offer didn't include all future companies.

I'm not sure anyone would buy a business where the children of the original founders had an implicit right to work at the company and could purchase part of the business after meeting certain criteria. Does anyone here want to be KW's manager and business partner, because that's exactly what the agreement was supposed to indicate.

FYI, remember that the stipulation about working for the company and being able to buy part of it was not the wish of Lou or Beverly Winter. It was the request of Royal Trust:

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/rep...family-feud-comes-to-the-fore/article1069800/

We don't know what Lou Winter would have wanted.

 

[musicaljoke]

BS won in court simply because the clauses were not in perpetuity nor an obligation that was carried from one company to another. That is normal practice, AFAIK.

BS was never under the obligation because it never became part of any agreement. BS made the offer, but it was rejected by the Trustees.

https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/d...TaGVybWFuIGFuZCB3aW50ZXIAAAAAAQ&resultIndex=2

 

[Grey-St]

Most of what the Fifth Estate program related was already known, but there was some new information - such as the fact that HS left the Apotex offices at 6 p.m. and BS left almost three hours later. Assuming that HS drove straight home, there was more than enough time to kill her and then lie in wait for BS to arrive.
Also - when KW wanted to start a construction business, BS gave him considerable financial help. Even as the business continued to lose money, BS poured in additional millions, to no avail. Most people starting businesses don't have rich relatives bankrolling them to this extent. KW really should stop blaming BS for everything that went wrong in his life and take a hard look at the mirror.

But see, that's what I find is strange in all of this. Bankrolling failing businesses, hemorrhaging money, etc. As someone stated previously, it's almost as though he had an inability to be emotionally attached or invested in anything, mentoring anyone or offering his business insight into how to make this a more successful venture. Just a strange component from my observations. JMO.

 

[PaulR]

BS was never under the obligation because it never became part of any agreement. BS made the offer, but it was rejected by the Trustees.

https://www.canlii.org/en/on/onsc/d...TaGVybWFuIGFuZCB3aW50ZXIAAAAAAQ&resultIndex=2

Interesting, this was a summary judgment. I'm not sure what a summary judgment is in Canada, but I do know what it is in the United States. In short it means that a motion was made by one of the parties (in this case the defendant) to stop the lawsuit from going to trial because the lawsuit was without merit, and the judge agreed.

 

[musicaljoke]

I'm not sure anyone would buy a business where the children of the original founders had an implicit right to work at the company and could purchase part of the business after meeting certain criteria. Does anyone here want to be KW's manager and business partner, because that's exactly what the agreement was supposed to indicate.

Yes, I agree. I see the offer as coming from a paternalistic benevolence, rather than good business sense. If the cousins were to be given opportunity to purchase 20% of the shares, then someone would have to be willing to part with 20% of the company's shares, something a father would do for his children, but not something that you could expect from other partners in the company. With a clause like that, the company would become untenable.

 

[Grey-St]

Sphinx - I agree that saying the killers were professional doesn't exclude making the hit "personal" if that's what the contract entailed. Professional just means to me that someone is very good at what they do, and able to do it undetected which is crucial in such a high profile case. As for K.W. he looked and sounded as if he was experiencing some mental health issues. What made him think that he could win a legal battle with B.S. says something about his mindset from the get go, not exactly sensible.

I think he was seeking justice, so it's not really about sensibility. Our system doesn't often favour the ones who do. I have no doubt that this has had mental health implications on him. JMO.

 

[Crosby87]

I disagree with the statement that this lawsuit would not have gone forward had it not been the "Rich Uncle". IMO if the Winter children had found out that anyone had not honoured thier parents wishes they would have gone after them too.

We know that this is "True"as stated in Winter v. Sherman, 2017 ONSC 5492 (CanLII)

[16] The Sherman & Ulster offer also included an option for the Winters children to be employed by the purchased business and to acquire 5% of the shares of the company if employed for two years.
[17] The option had four pre-conditions attached; the opportunity of employment and subsequent acquisition of shares would only arise if all four pre-conditions were met. If any one of the conditions was not fulfilled at the point in time when the children were to have the opportunity of employment or share acquisition, Sherman’s obligations were to be null and void.
[18] Royal Trust had wanted stronger option terms that would have inhibited Sherman’s ability to resell the purchased business or take the Empire Companies public. Sherman refused such terms. As Justice Perell put it at paragraph 123 of his reasons:
Sherman was only prepared to offer a limited, qualified, contingent and conditional employment agreement and option agreement. He was asked to be more expansive and generous, but he would not be moved….Royal Trust did not leave any money on the negotiating table by negligently drafting the Option Agreement or by not squeezing Dr. Sherman to ensure that his promise extended to employment and an interest in any and every generic drug business in which he might become involved in the future.

[19] The shares in the Empire Companies were owned by Sherman and Ulster Li

The case that I cannot find is the Court of Appeal, Justice Paul Perell, Winter v. Sherman..Can someone find this?

Quoted in this news article https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...ans-fortune-wishful-thinking-judge-rules.html and in the Sheman v. Winter document.

Quote from the news article- “As found by Justice (Paul) Perell and confirmed by the Court of Appeal, Apotex did not own or use any of the assets, goodwill, property of business of the Empire companies,” Hood wrote

^ This would mean that BS did not use ANY of the assets, goodwill, property of business of the Empire companies.

So how did BS fund the company APOTEX? It's ridiculous in my opinion. Did a forensic accountant go over BS's finacial statements prior to the purchace of Apotec.I'd personally appeal this too.Maybe someone can clarify?

Off topic. I was happy that the crimminoligist in the W5 episode stated the rarity of wealthy couples being strangled. What he did not mention is that the Shermans were the only couple ever found to date to have been strangled in a double murder useing belts as I stated before.Statisticly improbable.This is also true of a murder/suicide. NEVER happened before in the case of a wealthy couple.

ALL JMO

RBBM

That 's what I want to know too; How could BS purchase Apotex without using ANY of the assets, goodwill, property of business of the Empire companies?

 

[human]

Gosh Grey St I am totally with you on all of the points you have made. These kids didn't stand a chance because they never knew the possibilities that lay before them early on. I really believe that there was no disclosure regarding the early plans that would eventually give them something to look and work toward.

Kerry, IMO, is blowing off steam that has built up over 15 years or more. Media is his only outlet at this time. I don't agree with it but I understand it. I do not think he was involved either, MOO. What I think is happening to him is that his fantasies about hurting them have come to fruition but not by his hand. He is tactless and boorish but I think his hurt is coming out now in a rush of emotion that is unable to control.

In my past line of work, Barry was the devil. I know he isn't the devil but he really pissed (can I say that?) hundreds if not thousands of people off. Honey seems to be innocent. So I just don't know what the hell happened and why? JMO

Why did they not stand a chance? They had parents that loved them at birth. I would think their parents left them some kind of money. The people who raised them were wealthy. They must have had all kinds of experiences. It sounds like some at least went to good schools and excelled.

They had the opportunity for education. Were they beaten or starved?

Yes, they suffered the trauma of death as did Barry when his father died.

The children needed counseling but to say they did not have a chance is stretching it. Oprah Winfrey did not have a chance, Look at her early life

 

[casesensitive]

Chase Merritt (charged with killing the McStay family) comes to mind. He offered interviews to the media after the bodies were found. He also disliked the wife and said he was going to write a book. But he certainly didn't implicate himself as much as KW has done.

 

[Grey-St]

Would anyone keep funding those who are now making accusations that one killed their father?

Why wouldn't one 'take back' that which was given to help them when they then turn on one?

Obviously, ones' generosity is of no avail at that point.

Had they said nothing, BS would probably still be supporting them in a rather generous manner.

Or until his recent death.

Which I think speaks to BS's mentality. He must always remain in control. Until he is challenged, his generosity continue. When he is, it's all over. JMO. I don't fault him for being angry about the accusation, I just may not have made them homeless because of it. MOO.

 

[human]

I am going to add in my opinion,"it would have been the 'right' thing to do.Personally I think BS morally had a duty to go above and beyond to protect the boys from trecherous & disastrous perhaps even predatory business dealings. Yes it would have been beyond and above what is reasonable oversight in a courtroom but it was his duty to the orphaned heirs of his late aunt and uncle.

:cow:

What access did he have to the orphans? The mother denied the family the ability to have the children.

 

[casesensitive]

Not sure I can remember a case where a potential POI has shone such a light on themselves :thinking:

Chase Merritt (charged with killing the McStay family) comes to mind. He offered interviews to the media after the bodies were found. He also disliked the wife and said he was going to write a book. But he certainly didn't implicate himself as much as KW has done.

 

[Researchnut]

Along with the Official Guardian of Ontarios' office. It was up to both RT and OG to do their fiduciary duty and protect ALL assets of the Winters' when they were children.

Who failed them in that capacity? Seemingly everyone.

BS won in court simply because the clauses were not in perpetuity nor an obligation that was carried from one company to another. That is normal practice, AFAIK.

Not according to the court documents. They lost because BS didn't use ANY money, assets etc. from the sale of Empire to start APOTEX which IMO is highly suspect. This was stated in the court documents.

This is very interesting IMO https://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=d086014b-9790-40c5-9ec4-668d534b3f24

It talks about BS resisting the producing of financial documents and then produced limited versions. If you have nothing to hide why not freely share?

ALL IMO

Also ,we do still use the term wack-wacked. It may not be used in all circles.It's street language maybe picked up from movies but still used. Depends on who you know . Just some of our organized crime families this list is missing many of them and we also have organized street gangs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_criminal_enterprises,_gangs_and_syndicates#Canada

 

[human]

I believe BS in some ways also felt guilty about his money. He lived relatively frugally, didn’t flaunt his wealth, didn’t seem comfortable with it. His mission seemed to only be to make more. . But giving it away was IMO a way for him to not have to become personally involved. AFAIK he never spent a few hours helping in a food bank. Or coaching a kids activity. Or being a Big Brother. Frankly, he rarely even went to his own sons sports games. I am not being critical of him, it’s just that IMO he gave away money at least in part to assuage his guilt regarding his wealth, and he used donations as a way to offset his disinterest in donating his own time and becoming involved at a much more personal level.
I wonder if when he stands before the Pearly Gates how he will be judged. MOO

He did what he did best. Make money. Then he gave that money to people who would do what was needed. A few hours in a soup kitchen is not utlizing his talents. A few hours making money that he can donate for good is his special talent.

 

[PaulR]

Why did they not stand a chance? They had parents that loved them at birth. I would think their parents left them some kind of money. The people who raised them were wealthy. They must have had all kinds of experiences. It sounds like some at least went to good schools and excelled.

They had the opportunity for education. Were they beaten or starved?

Yes, they suffered the trauma of death as did Barry when his father died.

The children needed counseling but to say they did not have a chance is stretching it. Oprah Winfrey did not have a chance, Look at her early life

I'm not so sure the adoptive family was bad at all. KW hates them but he seems to blame everyone (adoptive parents, BS/HS, Royal Trust) but himself, he's not exactly objective.

 

[human]

Giving doesn't have an IOU attached.

The courts would have been powerless to order the return of the money without such.

My belief is that Barry knew they were entitled to more than he was lending them. He didn't seek them out to tell them. They had to fight through the courts to even get that information. The business was their father's brainchild and Barry would not have been where he was without that start and that wasn't acknowledged IMO. So whether what he did was legal or not, from a moral standpoint it was wrong in my view. He said in the deposition he had other cousins he never saw, but that is rather clouding the fact that the father of these particular cousins had enabled his career path.

Look at all of the children of ultra rich that lose their wealth. For instance, some of the heirs of the Johnson and Johnson fortune. Many examples.

Barry bought a company that was not doing well.

It was his skill and brains that made it work.

 

[kay74]

If the boys had been brought up by their bio parents they would have been part of their father's business and would have succeeded. Instead they were cheated out of a loving family and brought up by two people who did not love them and lanquished. For a kid to have to leave home at 15 yrs. old says it all. People on here who disagree, came from loving homes, do NOT understand. It's so easy to judge when you have not been in this situation.