Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #6

[musicaljoke]

I disagree with the statement that this lawsuit would not have gone forward had it not been the "Rich Uncle". IMO if the Winter children had found out that anyone had not honoured thier parents wishes they would have gone after them too.

Did they go after anyone other then Rich Uncle? The offer was made by Sherman & Ulster. Was Ulster named in the lawsuit?

Sherman's offer was rejected by Royal Trust and never became part of the final Agreement to Purchase. The sale went forward without any clause that would give the cousins a right to purchase shares in the Empire company. Was Royal Trust sued by the cousins?

 

[gregjrichards]

I just came across this article that was posted by The Globe and Mail which doesn't present a rosy picture of Barry and Honey’s relationship. Maybe after the couple met with the architect, Barry realized he didn’t want a future with his wife and snapped? People often hide what goes on behind closed doors or in a person's mind. There's alot of secrets. And Honey was killed elsewhere and her body was moved to the pool area. No signs of forced entry.

“They complemented each other, yet had clashing personalities.”

Friends close to the couple describe signs of discord in the Sherman's marriage, such as public ribbing about Barry's devotion to work, but they viewed it as shtick.

Interviews with friends, court records, Barry's memoirs and public tributes at the couple's memorial Thursday paint a portrait of two people with outsized personalities who were polar opposites.

When Barry lost his father when he was 10, he did not recall a great sense of turmoil. His detached, rational side was also evident while he was in the military reserves, where he would argue aggressively with a chaplain who preached Christianity.

In court cases, he was unyielding and combative. His judicial disputes embroiled a motley cast of people who crossed his path – relatives, contractors, business rivals.

At their parent’s memorial service, Jonathan hinted that in remarks that hinted that Barry and Honey weren't always on the same wavelength.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/new...-honey-sherman-apotex-deaths/article37424109/

They look like a normal loving couple to me in photos. I trust law enforcement’s determination that both Barry and Honey were murdered.

 

[musicaljoke]

Are you saying the money BS received when he sold Empire isn't an asset?

All of Empire's assets, goodwill, equipment, bank accounts, outstanding loans, and even pending lawsuits would be included in the sale. The proceeds from the sale are taxed and the balance goes to the company of shareholders.

 

[Hazel]

One of the groups I looked at had its 12 step program on a Sunday (Southern Ontario C.A.) and attendees were asked to email attendance beforehand as spaces were limited. I couldn't check past meeting dates only those going forward, and I have no idea where he lives or if that is the group he attends.

12 Step Recovery Meeting of Cocaine Anonymous

Wednesday

7:30 PM Big Book/Trad/Discussion
SNL Staying Alive
Walmer Road Baptist Church
188 Lowther Ave., Toronto
Upstairs in meeting room #2
(North of Bloor, 1 west of Spadina)
wheel-chair-icon

7:30pm Book Discussion
Phoenix Group
Christ Church Deer Park
1570 Yonge St., Toronto
(2 Blocks North of St. Clair Subway)
wheel-chair-icon

7:30pm / Big Book Discussion
Type 3 Group
Bellwood Centre
175 Brentcliffe Rd.
(Ravine Level, Vancouver Room)

IIRC, KW mentioned "cocaine" not "narcotics" but I could be wrong.
Link: https://ca-on.org/
Click the first link where it says +Toronto

 

[Veeduck]

The thing that bothers me is if it was one killer how did he know the Shermans would arrive home separately and be able to handle both if necessary. Someone can predict from past behaviour that Barry would come home late from the office, but not what time Honey would return.

I'd suggest that what Kerry described in the Fifth Estate interview was more than just fantasy. What if Winter DID wait for Barry in the Apotex parking lot, and watch him walk to his car? He may even have done it more than once, without actually getting out of his car to confront Barry.

In a wide-ranging interview with The Fifth Estate, Winter said he told his psychiatrist that in the past, he had fantasized about murdering Barry Sherman.

"I would talk about killing Barry, and it was very graphic," Winter said. "He would come out of the parking lot of Apotex, and I'd be hiding behind a car ..."

Maybe on December 13, after finishing work, Winter went to the Apotex parking lot, saw Barry's car still there, and (as he may have on previous occasions), waited for Barry to leave the building. It's easy to speculate what might have happened next.

Instead of seeing Barry, he would've seen Honey exit the building at 6 pm. Realizing that neither of them was home yet, and that the housekeeper didn't work that late, (still speculating), maybe Winter quickly drove to the Sherman residence, and arrived there several minutes before Honey did. This seems possible, IMO.

Perhaps Winter parked his car down the street, and hid in the evergreen bushes that separate the Sherman's property from their neighbors. There he could wait unseen, and be positioned to either follow Honey's car into the garage, or if she parked in front (as she did that day), could catch her at their front entrance before she got inside. To me, that's a plausible scenario. JMO.

Winter still wouldn't have known exactly when Barry would arrive home; only that he would be arriving later. At luck would have it, their arrivals were separated by hours, so there was plenty of time for Winter alone to incapacitate each of his victims separately. MOO.

If Winter had given much thought to committing murder, (as implied in the interview), he might have always kept a couple of belts and some rope in his car, to be ready for the right opportunity. Every word here that isn't in quotes is just my speculation.

 

[Hazel]

Hazel, thank you for once again sorting out the timeline.

I just have one comment about the timeline. Unfortunately, due to the fact that we can only copy bits, some of the more salacious comments get highlighted (maybe unfairly) and important details get omitted. IMO

For instance, 1967, Empire was losing money while under the care of RT. Did BS bring it to their attention? Yes. For the goodness of his heart? Likely not, he wanted to purchase it BUT he also pointed out, quite rightly, that it would give the Winter orphans grounds to sue if it continued to not be run properly. IMO

To me, that part is more important than saying 'he had all the angles covered', because he may have been looking out for his cousins as well as out of self interest. We just don't know. IMO

The other thing is about 'fiduciary duty'. As first cousins, there is NO fiduciary duty to ones younger cousins unless you are the executor/trustee for their deceased parents. BS was neither. IMO

When he bought Empire, those clauses were added, either by RT or BS. It doesn't matter who added them but if it were BS, he was looking out for his cousins. Once Empire was sold, the clauses were no longer available. I believe that is normal business practice. IMO

The Winter orphans were entitled to an inheritance from their parents estate, received it and 'blew through it' is how it was reported. IMO

Earlier, someone pointed out that IF BS had bought a house and done really well but the Winters had also bought a house and not done well, would there be an obligation for BS to share or help out the ones who failed to do well? No. Of course not, we would likely agree. IMO

Just trying to explain fiduciary duty in a more clear manner. It is NOT the same as a familial duty, where one feels obligated from a moral stance to lend a hand or even just a wish to help in some sense when people are in trouble. IMO

Sorry to jump on the back of your timeline but earlier there seemed to be some confusion about fiduciary duty being related to how well someone in the family had done. IMO

Now, I am not claiming sainthood for BS, as I have said before. We really do not know why he tried to help his cousins, it was not a legal requirement and I do think he was trying to help by getting them rehab, homes and starting up their businesses. If anyone had done that for me, I would have considered it helping me and would have been very grateful. IMO

As an astute business man, there is also nothing wrong with understanding and making use of any/all loopholes. People do it every day. Thats why you hire lawyers and accountants. IMO

I do hope that this terrible crime will be solved, that the family will somehow, someday be able to move on without fear and dread. I wish Mary could have her sister back and the children, their parents.

JDG, it's true we cannot copy and paste much (only 10%) - also my English is not very good, so it's hard for me to express exactly what I want to say, and also I don't want to get in trouble.

I wish we could copy from all articles and read as a historical book.

Please notice that BS went to talk to Mrs. BW three days after LW died, so that's 14 days before she passed away, and made his first offer to purchase Empire.
She never made a decision, however she told one of the trustees her fears that BS wanted to take the company from her "babies" (3, 4, 5 and 7).

Three days after she dies, BS went to the trustees and makes an offer to buy the company. They said "no".

He went to University, and two years later, again he offers to buy the company. If he was so concerned for the children, he could have asked to be given the opportunity to work for Empire as a Manager or Scientist, but NO, he wanted to buy it, and buy it for cheap.

We don't know if it was at that point that he put the shares under his name or under that company Bernard C. Sherman Ltd., or if he did that afterwards.
Why were the shares not in his name instead?

He was very adamant in purchasing Empire, he could have just open Apotex with his mother's $ and partner, without having to buy Empire, only to re-sell it to International Chemical and Nuclear (ICN) two years later for $2 million, and start working for ICN for 6 months until he was fired.

We know the rest of the story.
Do you still believe he had the children's interests in mind when acquiring Empire?
How old were the orphan children when BS bought Empire? 5, 6, 7 and 9?

 

[Hazel]

I disagree with the statement that this lawsuit would not have gone forward had it not been the "Rich Uncle". IMO if the Winter children had found out that anyone had not honoured thier parents wishes they would have gone after them too.

We know that this is "True"as stated in Winter v. Sherman, 2017 ONSC 5492 (CanLII)

[16] The Sherman & Ulster offer also included an option for the Winters children to be employed by the purchased business[/B] and to acquire 5% of the shares of the company if employed for two years.

[17] The option had four pre-conditions attached; the opportunity of employment and subsequent acquisition of shares would only arise if all four pre-conditions were met. If any one of the conditions was not fulfilled at the point in time when the children were to have the opportunity of employment or share acquisition, Sherman’s obligations were to be null and void.


[18] Royal Trust had wanted stronger option terms that would have inhibited Sherman’s ability to resell the purchased business or take the Empire Companies public. Sherman refused such terms.

As Justice Perell put it at paragraph 123 of his reasons:

- Sherman was only prepared to offer a limited, qualified, contingent and conditional employment agreement and option agreement.

- He was asked to be more expansive and generous, but he would not be moved….

- Royal Trust did not leave any money on the negotiating table by negligently drafting the Option Agreement or by not squeezing Dr. Sherman to ensure that his promise extended to employment and an interest in any and every generic drug business in which he might become involved in the future.


[19] The shares in the Empire Companies were owned by Sherman and Ulster Limited


The case that I cannot find is the Court of Appeal, Justice Paul Perell, Winter v. Sherman..Can someone find this?

Quoted in this news article https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...ans-fortune-wishful-thinking-judge-rules.html and in the Sheman v. Winter document.

Quote from the news article- “As found by Justice (Paul) Perell and confirmed by the Court of Appeal, Apotex did not own or use any of the assets, goodwill, property of business of the Empire companies,” Hood wrote

^ This would mean that BS did not use ANY of the assets, goodwill, property of business of the Empire companies.

So how did BS fund the company APOTEX? It's ridiculous in my opinion. Did a forensic accountant go over BS's finacial statements prior to the purchace of Apotec.I'd personally appeal this too.Maybe someone can clarify?


ALL JMO

(respectfully bolded by me)

JDG, the bolded part is for you to read.

 

[nuff]

Yes he died about the middle of January, I guess we can be grateful KW didn’t announce on TV how happy that made him, did he fantasise about decapitating him too?
The more I think about that comment the more despicable kW seems.

I think this has been said previously, but KW is not named among the sons in the adoptive father's obit.

 

[nuff]

I assumed all Jews worshipped God until I met Barry Sherman. Because Barry didn't believe in God, did this couple participate in the practices and the traditions of the Jewish people who do worship Jehovah or did they separate themselves from it? Did they attend a synogogue? Wouldn't Christmas be meaningless for them?

And all Christians who observe Christmas and Easter and go to church at least for weddings & funerals worship God, do they? Observing cultural traditions is common among all faiths even for those who don't necessarily believe.

 

[nuff]

Lol tax write off

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They had a family foundation, so the tax implications are different than they are for a personal donation. This in no way takes away from their tremendous record of philanthropy.

 

[nuff]

Thank you Tortoise. Afaik, KW lives in Toronto, Ontario, the same City the Shermans lived in.

I don't know much about Narcotics Anonymous but I doubt they post the names of those who attend their meetings since it's called 'Narcotics Anonymous'.

The only person(s) who can likely access this confidential information is LE.

/QUOTE]

At most 12-step meetings, attendance is not taken or recorded, and attendees use only their first name. Having people sign up in advance in unusual. Those who are court-ordered to attend usually bring a form to be signed, to give to their probation officer or whomever. It is not impossible that TPS could attend the same group KW claims to have attended, but there is no "official record" for them to seize. Any witnesses to his attendance would be speaking voluntarily.

 

[Tortoise]

No he couldn’t. Legal restrictions and no one would invest in a company with that clause.

Not that I'm much of a business minded person but how could that clause have existed at Empire if this is the case?

At the end of the day I believe what Barry did when he sold Empire and founded Apotex was done to leave that clause behind, to wriggle out of it, but the Winter boys should have gone after Royal Trust because they were negligent not to notice the loophole Barry exploited concerning the five year clause and his share ownership being corporate.

 

[Tortoise]

IIRC, KW mentioned "cocaine" not "narcotics" but I could be wrong.
Link: https://ca-on.org/
Click the first link where it says +Toronto

Yes he did say Cocaine Anonymous. Those Wednesday meetings are book discussions and I think he said he attended the 12 step meeting, which is why I mentioned it being held on a Sunday. But the December meeting dates weren't available for checking because past dates don't appear to be listed on the website.

 

[Tortoise]

At most 12-step meetings, attendance is not taken or recorded, and attendees use only their first name. Having people sign up in advance in unusual. Those who are court-ordered to attend usually bring a form to be signed, to give to their probation officer or whomever. It is not impossible that TPS could attend the same group KW claims to have attended, but there is no "official record" for them to seize. Any witnesses to his attendance would be speaking voluntarily.

Hopefully they will be able to find footage of his car that evening on a security camera, or trace his cell phone locations. I don't know what powers they would have to check his cell phone if he hasn't been arrested.

 

[MizStery]

Not that I'm much of a business minded person but how could that clause have existed at Empire if this is the case?

At the end of the day I believe what Barry did when he sold Empire and founded Apotex was done to leave that clause behind, to wriggle out of it, but the Winter boys should have gone after Royal Trust because they were negligent not to notice the loophole Barry exploited concerning the five year clause and his share ownership being corporate.

[FONT=.SF UI Text][FONT=.SFUIText-Semibold]I am speaking from a very personal POV. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=.SF UI Text][FONT=.SFUIText-Semibold][/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=.SF UI Text][FONT=.SFUIText-Semibold]BS uncle and aunt had a profound influence in his life.That debt to them goes way beyond legal contractual documents.If you like the debt to his aunt and uncle extended to protect their sons from unethical or predatory actions that were contrary to the best business interests of their orphaned sons. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=.SF UI Text][FONT=.SFUIText-Semibold][/FONT]
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[FONT=.SF UI Text][FONT=.SFUIText-Semibold]As many have said BS simply did 'what he had to do'. He was generous and they repaid him by rancor.[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=.SF UI Text][FONT=.SFUIText-Semibold][/FONT]
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[FONT=.SF UI Text][FONT=.SFUIText-Semibold]His debt to honor his aunt and uncle transcended whether the boys were greedy or whatever nastiness developed.All of the sons hatred did not cancel out BS debt to his aunt and uncle. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=.SF UI Text][FONT=.SFUIText-Semibold][/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=.SF UI Text][FONT=.SFUIText-Semibold]I have individual's in my life who I can never repay. I do not take that obligation lightly. It's not because I have to it's because I truly want honor them by doing it. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=.SF UI Text][FONT=.SFUIText-Semibold][/FONT]
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[FONT=.SF UI Text][FONT=.SFUIText-Semibold]:cow:[/FONT][/FONT]

 

[canadiangirl]

They had a family foundation, so the tax implications are different than they are for a personal donation. This in no way takes away from their tremendous record of philanthropy.

Do you know how much you can bury in companies when it comes to expenses and charities? I don't believe any of it was from the goodness of his heart. It was business to benefit him.. And his accountants were likely telling him the amount to donate where etc for tax purposes. Moo

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[Tighthead]

Are you saying the money BS received when he sold Empire isn't an asset?

It’s his money. He owned shares and sold them and used the cash.

if you own shares of McDonalds and sell them, the cash is your asset. It doesn’t trace to McDonalds.

As as long as his dealings with the sale of Empire were on the up and up, there isn’t really an issue.

 

[canadiangirl]

Donations from corporations don't generate a wonderful tax write off, so ascribing his motive for philanthropy in this way is most likely not true.

No one knows where the money came from. I doubt it came from the corporation itself. Holdcos are common as tax shelters. They are pretty much the same as making a personal donation when it comes to taxes. Moo

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[nuff]

Do you know how much you can bury in companies when it comes to expenses and charities? I don't believe any of it was from the goodness of his heart. It was business to benefit him.. And his accountants were likely telling him the amount to donate where etc for tax purposes. Moo

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Actually, yes I do. But I disagree, in that I believe both Shermans were genuinely philanthropic people, nor do I see how this is relevant to their brutal murders.

 

[canadiangirl]

Actually, yes I do. But I disagree, in that I believe both Shermans were genuinely philanthropic people, nor do I see how this is relevant to their brutal murders.

Agree to disagree. I see it as relevant. Moo of course

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