Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #6

[AllyJane]

I agree. I said earlier that I think it's possible that the killer did not come to the house for the purpose of killing. The manner of death (strangulation) does not fit with a pre-planned double murder. The killer would have probably brought a gun if that was the intention. I think the hanging was to make it look like a double suicide and that the killer may have strangled them when he was caught doing something in the house. JMO.

Unless the goal was to make someone suffer or give information. A gun isnt usually used in torture. I am thinking there has to be a significance of the belts or strangulation.

 

[JDG]

My family always had promissory notes as a safeguard against someone suing and taking out of the family. I had to sign a mortgage for educational expenses ( that was forgiven when I graduated). My grandfather loaned me money for my first business for one year at a 10% interest rate which I paid back. I had to do an entire business plan and sell him on it. Yes there was a promissory note attached.

When my mom died a couple of years ago and sorted her files (every check and bank statement and more going back to 1965 when she was a teen) I found the files with the promissory notes. I laughed. Some families, especially successful business families, are like that.

Same in our family. Business is still business, even with family members. One can always 'forgive' the loan once everything else falls into place. That was a fairly common occurrence but you never knew in advance, so couldn't count on it.

I recall someone we 'put through school'. They mostly did well but also partied through a couple of classes, who doesn't when young. When they had to do a repeat of two classes, we informed them that they had to pay the re-dos. The look of shock and horror!! lol

My answer, well, yes I agreed to pay for college but did you really think I didn't expect a good result.
Pointed out that if you wish to party, you get to pay for the re-dos and we will start paying again as soon as they are done. All further classes were a pass. Im sure the partying still happened but with adequate study.

I truly believe that people appreciate things more if they have to participate in the cost/elbow grease. Then, its an accomplishment in more ways than one. We aren't fans of just handing out blank cheques.

 

[clearskies1]

Ok, another elementary question: do we know that that no DNA or fingerprints were left?

 

[AllyJane]

The manner of death was very effective. I believe they came to kill both HS and BS and to leave zero traces of DNA. It was planned, they knew where the Shermans would be and how/where to attack them in the house. IMO

If one attacks from behind, using a ligature you can kill rather quickly and I think there were at least 2 men there to do it. Possibly a third, as a look out or back up in case of a physical altercation. IMO

I am puzzled by the story of Honey sitting in a puddle of her own blood from scratches on her nose and mouth.

Nothing on her upper body clothing but enough blood to make a puddle? Just doesn't seem right to me. IMO

IMO, the only way that could happen would be if she had been dead before they sat her upright to hang her.

Once the heart stops beating, the excessive blood from a mouth wound would not be much but it should still drip onto the clothing.

The police may be giving out 'misinformation' on purpose. I have even wondered if FE was a 'set up' for KW, give him an arena to speak where he feels in control and let him chat away. The re-enactment timing was odd and to air it just before he was called in for an interview just adds to my sense that it was all done for a purpose.

I believe the LE said they were strangled with the belts before being positioned to the rail (or maybe it was one of the LE leaks). They said she put up quite a fight due to the scratches on her face and the pool of blood from her face. So maybe she was backslapped in the face with someone who had a ring that cause scratches as well as a bloody nose or mouth and it knocked her out face first onto the floor where she bled. Then she was strangled while down which, like you said, would lessen the blood flow. Not sure if this was done before BS got home or after but I am thinking maybe before. However, not sure what the killer(s) would be doing for another 2 hours until BS got home in the house if nothing else in the house was disturbed (that is an assumption just because there has been no info on that)

 

[Twinkle]

I agree. I said earlier that I think it's possible that the killer did not come to the house for the purpose of killing. The manner of death (strangulation) does not fit with a pre-planned double murder. The killer would have probably brought a gun if that was the intention. I think the hanging was to make it look like a double suicide and that the killer may have strangled them when he was caught doing something in the house. JMO.

Very interesting. Care to speculate what they were caught doing?

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[clearskies1]

Very interesting. Care to speculate what they were caught doing?

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Perhaps stealing? Reason I say that is because of a case I posted about a few pages ago. A woman in NYC was found hanging from a shower rod by a bed sheet in her aptmt. The cops initially thought it was a suicide but later arrested a construction worker who had been doing work in her building. I believe it was learned that he had entered the victim's aptmt and was stealing money when she caught him. He then strangled her and tried to make it look like a suicide. Anyway, I think the killer could have been in the Sherman house trying to steal or he may have come over to talk, lost it and wound up strangling one of them and then the other. Maybe I'm totally off, but I think this is possible. JMO.

 

[AllyJane]

Perhaps stealing? Reason I say that is because of a case I posted about a few pages ago. A woman in NYC was found hanging from a shower rod by a bed sheet in her aptmt. The cops initially thought it was a suicide but later arrested a construction worker who had been doing work in her building. I believe it was learned that he had entered the victim's aptmt and was stealing money when she caught him. He then strangled her and tried to make it look like a suicide. Anyway, I think the killer could have been in the Sherman house trying to steal or he may have come over to talk, lost it and wound up strangling one of them and then the other. Maybe I'm totally off, but I think this is possible. JMO.

LE already said this was a targetted killing of both HS and BS. So robbery wouldn't fall into that or they would have said robbery gone wrong.

 

[JDG]

I think the Fifth Estate in their re-enactment said it was believed that they never left the house after coming home separately.

No. they didn't leave the house. they were attacked as they entered the house, killed and hung pretty quickly.
Now that we know from TPS that they came in at different times, Barry must have seen Honey hanging from the railing. IMO

Once again, I cannot imagine the pain of the surviving family members. IMO

IF it ever gets to trial, it will all unfold but I am wondering if they will ever solve this crime. IMO

 

[clearskies1]

LE already said this was a targetted killing of both HS and BS. So robbery wouldn't fall into that or they would have said robbery gone wrong.

They didn't think it was an attempted robbery in the NYC case either. But that's what it turned out to be. Just stating my theory.

 

[Hazel]

If these deaths were 'staged' as a murder/suicide, using two belts (ostensibly, or factually belonging to BS) it would fit the common method of suicide by men by hanging. They use what is available and belts are used. Hanging from a low structure is more common also, as in being attached to the pool railing. If BS killed his wife and decided to commit suicide (planned or not) the death scene is plausible.

So did the killer "google" common suicide methods used by men to come up with a plausible scene of murder/suicide to fool LE? I feel that the only killer who would go that route is someone who knew the couple versus big pharma or international enemies. The killer knew that the murder/suicide scenario might be believable during investigation, for reasons that we are unaware of. JMO

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3539603/

Sorry to use wikipedia, but take it for what it is.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_by_hanging

If we go by the FE show and other leaks we read about, it would appear that HS arrived home about 3 hours before BS, and was found still wearing her coat/jacket and boots.

It implies she was attacked as soon as she got home, and had no time to remove boots nor coat. I wonder where was her purse found? Her phone and house/car keys?

The murderer(s) could have just gagged, blindfolded and tied her, and left her on her bed or locked in a room (bathroom), or walking closet, and then wait for BS to come home.

She could have been found in 1 or 2 days later, dehydrated but alive.

If it was BigPharma, I don't see why the need to kill her? I could be totally wrong, but for that reason, I don't think it was Big Pharma. ALL JMHO

 

[Grey-St]

According to KW, he had to sign promissory notes. Not gifts, loans. BS set them up but was leaving himself an option if things went south. He knew he was dealing with people with drug problems.

It becomes very complicated.

How was any of them going to be able to payback what BS loaned them? Even if their businesses became more successful, 8 million dollars is a lot of money.

All so very strange to me and forever will be. JMO.

 

[JDG]

I believe the LE said they were strangled with the belts before being positioned to the rail (or maybe it was one of the LE leaks). They said she put up quite a fight due to the scratches on her face and the pool of blood from her face. So maybe she was backslapped in the face with someone who had a ring that cause scratches as well as a bloody nose or mouth and it knocked her out face first onto the floor where she bled. Then she was strangled while down which, like you said, would lessen the blood flow. Not sure if this was done before BS got home or after but I am thinking maybe before. However, not sure what the killer(s) would be doing for another 2 hours until BS got home in the house if nothing else in the house was disturbed (that is an assumption just because there has been no info on that)

IF you can believe the FE people, the forensics professor (?) indicated that the house was very clean i.e. little or no DNA, prints etc. I didn't have all my attention on that part and will re-watch it on the weekend but Im sure he said it, then went quiet very quickly, as if getting a cue to hush. IMO

The only 'issue' I have about your ring theory is, if you were going out to commit a murder or two, would you not remove all jewellery? Not saying you are wrong but I would remove all extraneous items so that they don't leave marks, get dropped or get bloodied. Don't think they were expecting blood but murder is a 'serious' business. Get in, get out and leave nothing behind. They sure wouldn't want TPS checking out ring patterns. IMO

With a ligature, Im surprised that HS had a chance to fight. Wonder if that is really true? I had imagined it being put around her neck from behind and quickly. No fight, no sight, no nothing.

Police are allowed to 'mislead' during investigations if it helps them nab the perps? Am I right on that one??

 

[AllyJane]

IF you can believe the FE people, the forensics professor (?) indicated that the house was very clean i.e. little or no DNA, prints etc. I didn't have all my attention on that part and will re-watch it on the weekend but Im sure he said it, then went quiet very quickly, as if getting a cue to hush. IMO

The only 'issue' I have about your ring theory is, if you were going out to commit a murder or two, would you not remove all jewellery? Not saying you are wrong but I would remove all extraneous items so that they don't leave marks, get dropped or get bloodied. Don't think they were expecting blood but murder is a 'serious' business. Get in, get out and leave nothing behind. They sure wouldn't want TPS checking out ring patterns. IMO

With a ligature, Im surprised that HS had a chance to fight. Wonder if that is really true? I had imagined it being put around her neck from behind and quickly. No fight, no sight, no nothing.

Police are allowed to 'mislead' during investigations if it helps them nab the perps? Am I right on that one??

The forensics professor has no access to LE information. So he can only be speculating that there is no DNA. I am not sure if he actually said that. But I think he agreed that it was a targetted killing but not necessarily by professionals. (I am going by memory so I can be wrong).

I think HS put up a fight which possibly the killer(s) were suprised by. Maybe they hit her with something else that was around the pool, maybe with one of the belts.

I think LE can mislead but I think they need to be careful in case they give the future Defense lawyers a theory to work with. But LE has given so little info that I can't imagine what they could be misleading about. I think it is more about what they AREN'T saying that is misleading.

 

[Grey-St]

Has TPS named KW as a Person Of Interest yet? I thought we can't be discussing anyone in particular until they were named a POI in the case?

Is that honestly true for WS? Because I mean, there's a plethora of potential suspects that have been discussed to no avail over multiple threads in this case.

 

[casesensitive]

If we go by the FE show and other leaks we read about, it would appear that HS arrived home about 3 hours before BS, and was found still wearing her coat/jacket and boots.

It implies she was attacked as soon as she got home, and had no time to remove boots nor coat. I wonder where was her purse found? Her phone and house/car keys?

The murderer(s) could have just gagged, blindfolded and tied her, and left her on her bed or locked in a room (bathroom), or walking closet, and then wait for BS to come home.

She could have been found in 1 or 2 days later, dehydrated but alive.

If it was BigPharma, I don't see why the need to kill her? I could be totally wrong, but for that reason, I don't think it was Big Pharma. ALL JMHO

I agree. There would be no reason for business enemies to kill BS's wife. Even if she saw and could describe the killer, she wouldn't have been posed like BS was. This was more personal, and for what ever reason, HS was also included in the horror.

 

[Grey-St]

Didn't BS also do the same to JD and the house he was given? FD was also being sued then became closer friends with BS and got more loans and $ for his business ventures. My point is KW (BS own relative) wasn't the only 1 that was being helped out by BS's money/generosity (if you want to call it that). JMO

It speaks to BS's level of power IMO.

 

[Twinkle]

If we go by the FE show and other leaks we read about, it would appear that HS arrived home about 3 hours before BS, and was found still wearing her coat/jacket and boots.

It implies she was attacked as soon as she got home, and had no time to remove boots nor coat. I wonder where was her purse found? Her phone and house/car keys?

The murderer(s) could have just gagged, blindfolded and tied her, and left her on her bed or locked in a room (bathroom), or walking closet, and then wait for BS to come home.

She could have been found in 1 or 2 days later, dehydrated but alive.

If it was BigPharma, I don't see why the need to kill her? I could be totally wrong, but for that reason, I don't think it was Big Pharma. ALL JMHO

I don't think it was big pharma either. In my opinion it was an "insider" someone who knew the habits and schedule of Honey and Barry. Someone who was comfortable in the house and knew their way around the house. They knew where the master bedroom and Barry's closet was to find belts. They knew the ideal "hiding spot" for the bodies. Ligature strangulation is very up close and personal and tends to show hate. Imo this was not a professional hit, it was a highly emotional killing. Maybe not even planned because they didn't come with a weapon.

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[clearskies1]

I don't think it was big pharma either. In my opinion it was an "insider" someone who knew the habits and schedule of Honey and Barry. Someone who was comfortable in the house and knew their way around the house. They knew where the master bedroom and Barry's closet was to find belts. They knew the ideal "hiding spot" for the bodies. Ligature strangulation is very up close and personal and tends to show hate. Imo this was not a professional hit, it was a highly emotional killing. Maybe not even planned because they didn't come with a weapon.

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Agree. Someone who had been in the house before. I also agree that it may not have been planned. JMO.

 

[AllyJane]

I don't think it was big pharma either. In my opinion it was an "insider" someone who knew the habits and schedule of Honey and Barry. Someone who was comfortable in the house and knew their way around the house. They knew where the master bedroom and Barry's closet was to find belts. They knew the ideal "hiding spot" for the bodies. Ligature strangulation is very up close and personal and tends to show hate. Imo this was not a professional hit, it was a highly emotional killing. Maybe not even planned because they didn't come with a weapon.

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Also someone who knew their window of opportunity to kill them both was closing in since HS was booked to go to Florida the following Monday.

 

[Grey-St]

bbm

Yes, BS did make loans to others along with KW and his brothers and IMO I call that exceedingly generous. To my knowledge, BS was suing FD not the other way around but I may be wrong about that. In any case, I think BS was able to compartmentalize business as just business whether he was dealing with family, friends or competitors, IMO. The ability to be detached to a great degree is essential in business, IMO. Business is business, it's not personal.

Likely BS would have sued anyone who decided to spit in the face of his generosity, and IMO he was justified. Had anyone, family member, friend or stranger, been a financial benefactor to me in my life I cannot imagine repaying them with baseless accusations of murdering my parent (as KW did to BS about LW) and nor would I decide to sue such a benefactor because I decided that I deserved more.

BS worked hard for his success. KW could have chosen to follow BS's good example, IMO. He could have worked hard, shared what he made with others, given others a hand up (loans), and had he done so, IMO, KW may be today a much more satisfied and content person. KW had choices as we all do. KW had more opportunities than most of us ever will and by accepting BS's hand up on numerous occasions he could have chosen to make himself a good life. Instead he is a man full of rage, rancor and regret, IMO, when just a little humility and gratitude could have made such a big difference in his life.

ALL MOO.

I so desperately do not want to rehash this, so I want to say that I fully respect your opinion, but I don't know how KW could have "chosen" to follow in BS's footsteps. They were handed completely different lives and circumstances. BS had a mentor, KW's father. KW didn't seem to have the same.

KW's life was riddled with trauma and substance use disorders. No one really chooses that either, to be completely honest.

I'm also appalled with his behaviour as a grown adult in recent years, I think he needed and needs today, a tremendous amount of help, and not the monetary kind. He's angry, frightening, vengeful, troubled, hurt, and he should probably be working this all out in a therapist's office instead of a courtroom or on The Fifth Estate. JMO.