Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #7

[hudunit]

I may have to eat crow.That was a very definite description of wrist markings.All the other articles were suggestions that possibly they were bound.Somebody with ready access to ties (possibly a builder or tradesman)Anyone can buy plastic zip ties at Home Depot but it is damn next to impossible to put them on yourself.From these autopsy reports I also conclude that it was double miurder.But how did someone get in and out of that house.

 

[WINDSOR]

Forty minutes to call 911 after the discovery of the bodies is not 'suspect'

a) The realtor who discovered the bodies did not show the other realtor and clients the pool area. The clients have to be discreetly shown the rest of the house and then escorted out. The Listing agent does not want to spook the potential buyers in any way.

b) Then the house staff have to be advised of the bodies.

c) After confirming the Sherman's are in fact dead, no doubt the house staff needed time to deal with their shock and grief.

d) Once everybody was composed, 911 is called.

Remember the sense of urgency to call 911 disappears once it was ascertained the Shermans were in fact dead.

 

[WINDSOR]

Toronto Star article explains why TPS are now on the Double Murder path.

I think it also points to well prepared assailants, who brought and removed wrist restraints, possibly a second belt, (only one belt was positively identified as Barry's). They were able to enter the house without forced entry, and were covert enough to not be seen entering or leaving the Sherman's home.

 

[dotr]

http://www.iheartradio.ca/newstalk-1010/news/new-details-1.3806730

Next week marks 5 months since Honey and Barry Sherman were found strangled to death hanging from a railing in the pool area of their North York mansion on December 15th.

Today the killer or killers are still walking the street.

How did we get from murder suicide to double murder?

The new information in the Star spells it out.

Autopsies were done the day after the Shermans were found. According to the Star, sources insist that the pathologist doing the work found signs that the deaths could be a case of double murder. The doctor did not make that ruling and it's unclear why.

Days later another pathologist hired by the family did a second autopsy and based on the evidence, he decided the Sherman's wrists had been bound by rope or plastic and they weren't strangled by the belts tied around their neck. They’d been strangled with something else.

On Friday morning a real estate agent working on the Sherman mansion took possible buyers through the home. She spotted the bodies hanging from a pool railing and then told the buyers that part of the house was off limits.

 

[hudunit]

Honey had not changed her clothes.She must have been killed or restrained for some time before Barry came home.But if she was killed first why bother with restraints for either one.They must have been restrained together and she was terrorized for some time before Barry got home.This shows a lot of hate for both of them.

 

[JDG]

I may have to eat crow.That was a very definite description of wrist markings.All the other articles were suggestions that possibly they were bound.Somebody with ready access to ties (possibly a builder or tradesman)Anyone can buy plastic zip ties at Home Depot but it is damn next to impossible to put them on yourself.From these autopsy reports I also conclude that it was double miurder.But how did someone get in and out of that house.

Side door was always left open and friends/family/neighbours knew.

 

[ldlager]

I speculate that a junior REALTOR® in the Toronto luxury home market is under strict orders that, if they encounter something unexpected, they are not to do anything without getting instructions from the boss. Especially if it involves, in any way, shape or form, the police.

After all, the owners being found murdered in their pool room while the home is actually for sale, could have a significantly negative impact on the sale and therefore the commission. Even more importantly, the murders might actually have been associated with the actions of a REALTOR®, such as being careless with keys or showing the house to the wrong type of people. And yet more importantly, the other clients of the REALTOR® could be so disturbed by the association between the REALTOR® and the murder of the homeowners, they might actually change realtors. And an even further massively scary implication could be, that the murder of this couple in their luxury home, while it was for sale, could be just that little unexpected pin prick that bursts the inflated Toronto luxury real estate market, leaving nothing but a ragged bit of balloon.

So, I speculate, this is why, after 30 or so minutes of discussion, the housekeeper was told to phone 911, rather than the REALTOR® who actually found the bodies.

Doesn't matter. Her first priority would be to keep this horror from a prospective buyer,

And also the police and medical personnel

 

[ldlager]

I speculate that a junior REALTOR® in the Toronto luxury home market is under strict orders that, if they encounter something unexpected, they are not to do anything without getting instructions from the boss. Especially if it involves, in any way, shape or form, the police.


After all, the owners being found murdered in their pool room while the home is actually for sale, could have a significantly negative impact on the sale and therefore the commission. Even more importantly, the murders might actually have been associated with the actions of a REALTOR®, such as being careless with keys or showing the house to the wrong type of people. And yet more importantly, the other clients of the REALTOR® could be so disturbed by the association between the REALTOR® and the murder of the homeowners, they might actually change realtors. And an even further massively scary implication could be, that the murder of this couple in their luxury home, while it was for sale, could be just that little unexpected pin prick that bursts the inflated Toronto luxury real estate market, leaving nothing but a ragged bit of balloon.

So, I speculate, this is why, after 30 or so minutes of discussion, the housekeeper was told to phone 911, rather than the REALTOR® who actually found the bodies.

Trying to visualize the scene when the agents first entered the pool area, would the Sherman's backs be the first thing seen, or their faces?
If faces first, could that have been staged that way with the purpose of shocking and horrifying the agent and prospective clients?
speculation, imo.

Based on the floorplan of the house, I believe their backs would have been to the door.

 

[ldlager]

I speculate that a junior REALTOR® in the Toronto luxury home market is under strict orders that, if they encounter something unexpected, they are not to do anything without getting instructions from the boss. Especially if it involves, in any way, shape or form, the police.

After all, the owners being found murdered in their pool room while the home is actually for sale, could have a significantly negative impact on the sale and therefore the commission. Even more importantly, the murders might actually have been associated with the actions of a REALTOR®, such as being careless with keys or showing the house to the wrong type of people. And yet more importantly, the other clients of the REALTOR® could be so disturbed by the association between the REALTOR® and the murder of the homeowners, they might actually change realtors. And an even further massively scary implication could be, that the murder of this couple in their luxury home, while it was for sale, could be just that little unexpected pin prick that bursts the inflated Toronto luxury real estate market, leaving nothing but a ragged bit of balloon.

So, I speculate, this is why, after 30 or so minutes of discussion, the housekeeper was told to phone 911, rather than the REALTOR® who actually found the bodies.

Forty minutes to call 911 after the discovery of the bodies is not 'suspect'

a) The realtor who discovered the bodies did not show the other realtor and clients the pool area. The clients have to be discreetly shown the rest of the house and then escorted out. The Listing agent does not want to spook the potential buyers in any way.

b) Then the house staff have to be advised of the bodies.

c) After confirming the Sherman's are in fact dead, no doubt the house staff needed time to deal with their shock and grief.

d) Once everybody was composed, 911 is called.

Remember the sense of urgency to call 911 disappears once it was ascertained the Shermans were in fact dead.

As indicated in the article, the clients had already seen the rest of the house.

The article makes no mention that anyone confirmed that the Sherman's were dead. Are we really to believe that instead of calling 911 asap, they cleared out the clients, showed them the rest of the basement, then went back downstairs to look at the bodies to confirm they were dead, then discuss with the housekeeper, then phone their boss in Florida, then sit around and wait for instructions, and then as a last resort call 911? IMO that does not sound the least bit reasonable.

 

[JDG]

As indicated in the article, the clients had already seen the rest of the house.

The article makes no mention that anyone confirmed that the Sherman's were dead. Are we really to believe that instead of calling 911 asap, they cleared out the clients, showed them the rest of the basement, then went back downstairs to look at the bodies to confirm they were dead, then discuss with the housekeeper, then phone their boss in Florida, then sit around and wait for instructions, and then as a last resort call 911? IMO that does not sound the least bit reasonable.

Im not sure what is incorrect in the Star story but I doubt the concern was losing the sale/commission.

If one comes across a couple of bodies, I can see getting the others out of the way but then one calls the police. Period.

It certainly isn't up to the realtor to determine if someone is dead. However, depending on how long they had been there, it may have been obvious. But, you still call the police.

Not much to 'discuss' with the housekeeper.......really.

 

[human]

Nope.

Re deleting cookies which does delete passwords.

Here are some ways to keep passwords, Googling can give other ways.

https://www.techwalla.com/articles/...ies-temp-files-without-losing-saved-passwords

 

[Hazel]

I've yet to see the reason police assumed only Honey was a victim. If the ME thought they were strangled by ligatures other than the belts and wrist restraints were used. Something is not right about this. A theory built around Barry's belt being taken off?

Feels like there's an elephant in the room.

btw, what is ME?
:sweep:

 

[scadagirl28]

Is it normal for the Chief pathologist office to share pictures and collaborate on a autopsy with a private team ?

 

[Tortoise]

Feels like there's an elephant in the room.

btw, what is ME?
:sweep:

Medical Examiner

 

[Hazel]

Thank you casesensitive.
Now we learn that there was an approx. 40 minute time gap between the discovery of the body by the realtor assistant and the housekeeper calling 911. In the meantime, the realtor in Florida called someone. What possible reason could there be to wait 40 minutes to call police? It makes absolutely no sense to me. So, I am left to wonder if someone else arrived at the house during that time, perhaps as a result of the call? If so, did they access the murder scene? What could they have done there? I am really beginning to question things here, there are way too many unanswered questions and very strange occurrences with this case.

IMHO, there's no reason to wait, in fact we are expected to phone 911 ASAP. Anyone in that situation would immediately reach for a phone, either if they think it's a murder or suicide, moreso if they think it's a murder/double murder, because the murderer could still be in the premises. MOO
Makes you wonder if there was a suicide note, therefore, no rush, no fear of the boogie man hiding around. :thinking: (speculation)

Btw, a realtor/assistant showing a house would most definitely have their cellphone at hand.

 

[Grey-St]

I totally agree that this 40 minute wait is very strange. I don't exactly know what their priorities were, but it seems that they were mixed up. What I do know, is that when in a traumatic situation, time becomes very distorted. Those 40 minutes could felt like 5 minutes to the people present.

 

[dotr]

Wondering what would/could happen to shares, stocks in Apotex and other Sherman businesses immediately after the deaths were announced?
Could anyone profit or at least not lose money in the companies if they were aware of the deaths, ( not the killer/s) before anyone else, including LE?
speculation, imo.

 

[JayFriend]

IMHO, there's no reason to wait, in fact we are expected to phone 911 ASAP. Anyone in that situation would immediately reach for a phone, either if they think it's a murder or suicide, moreso if they think it's a murder/double murder, because the murderer could still be in the premises. MOO
Makes you wonder if there was a suicide note, therefore, no rush, no fear of the boogie man hiding around. :thinking: (speculation)

Btw, a realtor/assistant showing a house would most definitely have their cellphone at hand.

Here is how I think it went down. The realtor/assistant saw the bodies and quickly got the clients out of the way. She then checked to see if they were alive or dead. Clearly they were dead, so immediately calling 911 was not going to helpful one way or another. She probably then called a superior to ask the best way to proceed. In the end, calling 911 is easiest and not a problem considering the gravity of the situation. But calling immediately or 40 minutes later would not make a difference. Unless, of course, there was reason to believe the killers were still in the house.

 

[JDG]

Is it normal for the Chief pathologist office to share pictures and collaborate on a autopsy with a private team ?

Yes, but if a family wants a private autopsy and one is required by law, the ME always gets the body first.
Private autopsy is secondary but they do cooperate and share information. Thats usually the whole point, to get the right answer about COD and methodology etc.

 

[scadagirl28]

Yes, but if a family wants a private autopsy and one is required by law, the ME always gets the body first.
Private autopsy is secondary but they do cooperate and share information. Thats usually the whole point, to get the right answer about COD and methodology etc.

What looks like cooperation to one juror can look like collusion with another.