Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #7

[Satchie]

Unfortunately, the source of the alleged 'leak' has never been released by the media, who happily took it up and ran with it in order to satisfy the public's insatiable "need to know". For all we know, it was some guy in the mailroom.

I think TPS were just doing their job, not jumping to conclusions by not ruling anything out or in, until they had collected all the evidence and could be absolutely certain.

It's the media that's creating all this drama and then gleefully producing hundreds of stories from it, it's like throwing a little bait into the pool and then, presto magico, you can report on all the sharks that seem to be in a frenzy.

 

[Snoop Sister]

You can believe what you want. Simple fact is that in those early days the family had no access to the crime scene, so how would they know that it wasn't a suicide? I'll tell you something from personal experience, family's first response to a suicide is denial. Always. I have also seen police declare a suicide as a death by misadventure simply to make the situation easier on the surviving family. Gomes will do whatever her superiors tell her to do. Time will tell if I am right or wrong, but I am willing to bet that this case is destined for the cold case files and I would be very surprised if we ever get another update on it.

As many of us predicted on this forum, there will be no concrete closure. I too doubt if there will be anymore updates on the case.

 

[pamelado2]

You can believe what you want. Simple fact is that in those early days the family had no access to the crime scene, so how would they know that it wasn't a suicide? I'll tell you something from personal experience, family's first response to a suicide is denial. Always. I have also seen police declare a suicide as a death by misadventure simply to make the situation easier on the surviving family. Gomes will do whatever her superiors tell her to do. Time will tell if I am right or wrong, but I am willing to bet that this case is destined for the cold case files and I would be very surprised if we ever get another update on it.

I'm going to have to go for a strong disagree with you on that one. From personal experience, family's response is definitely not always denial. I'm not sure why you would even think that. Surely you can imagine scenarios where a family is even expecting it to be a suicide because of depression, past attempts, etc. even if you've never witnessed that.

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[Breamworthy]

Approx. 1 in 3 'coroners autopsies' are wrong, so if there is any question, its well worth paying for a second opinion. I was just reading up on that last night.

Both coroners would have seen the same injuries and no doubt came to the same/similar conclusions.

I agree with most of your other points, but I'm a little confused by these two statements as they seem to disagree with each other. If 1 in 3 autopsies reaches the wrong conclusion, then why would you assume that both coroners would have come to similar conclusions? In fact, mathematically, if the 1/3 statistic is true, there would be a 4/9 chance that two autopsies would result in different conclusions, one correct and one incorrect.

 

[andreww]

I'm going to have to go for a strong disagree with you on that one. From personal experience, family's response is definitely not always denial. I'm not sure why you would even think that. Surely you can imagine scenarios where a family is even expecting it to be a suicide because of depression, past attempts, etc. even if you've never witnessed that.

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I should have prefaced that with "people that unexpectedly commit suicide". Sorry.

 

[Grey-St]

You can believe what you want. Simple fact is that in those early days the family had no access to the crime scene, so how would they know that it wasn't a suicide? I'll tell you something from personal experience, family's first response to a suicide is denial. Always. I have also seen police declare a suicide as a death by misadventure simply to make the situation easier on the surviving family. Gomes will do whatever her superiors tell her to do. Time will tell if I am right or wrong, but I am willing to bet that this case is destined for the cold case files and I would be very surprised if we ever get another update on it.

You can also believe what you want, and maybe you're right that the case won't be solved, and maybe you're wrong. In any sense, it won't have anything to do with the family's decision to do a parallel investigation. Do many families faced with suicide respond with denial? Absolutely. But this case is very unique. I feel as though their response was out of fear that this case was not being investigated fairly and accurately. Thus prompting their public statement and their decision to hire private investigators. If we knew what the crime scene looked like, they had an idea as well. It was difficult for most of us to reconcile that it was a murder/suicide, and found it concerning to learn that TPS may have been treating it as such. Lastly, Gomes is the lead detective. She may have superiors, but they would not tell her to say something that wasn't true. Especially when it comes to the manner of death. Gomes, and her superiors, are confident that this is a double homicide based on the evidence. There's nothing else to it.

 

[WINDSOR]

Do you know what Tory discussed in that meeting? If he just wanted a status update, you'd think a phone call would suffice?

Yes a phone call would have sufficed, but often people prefer face to face discussions when the opportunity arises, especially in serious matters. This is not a noisy dog complaint, but rather a double murder of two esteemed citizens.

 

[WINDSOR]

I was reviewing the case in my mind and here are some of the thoughts I came up with.

1) Two planned and distinct events took place, the murders and the staging of the bodies. Who wanted to have the bodies staged will point the perpetrator(s).

2) The scene appears to be neat and tidy, with no signs of emotional anger, and the dearth of forensic evidence (my assumption only) points to the likelihood of trained/professional/experts who were hired, committing the crime is high.

3) Since 'pros' are expensive, and the victims high profile I would expect the involvement of significant financial resources to finance this crime.

4) Law Enforcement likely have checked travel activity via Pearson airport after the Sherman deaths. I would be looking for individuals who had been in Canada a short time (few weeks at most), likely males, traveling alone, possibly arriving from different locales, and leaving for different locales.

5) Chances they would be males, 30-50 years of age, physically fit, and have a common language. Likely they would also be relatively fluent in English as well. I would cross reference individuals who meet that profile with the surveillance videos from the Sherman's neighbourhood.

6) The assailants had to arrive at the Sherman's from somewhere and leave the Sherman's. What mode of transport is crucial. Uber, Taxi, Rental Car? Private car? On foot? Work/Trades or Utility Truck? All of the Above? Any records or videos of people coming or going from area?

7) Being pros, the assailants, would be especially cognizant of the need to not be noticed coming or going, so the likelihood of disguises, misdirection, and other tradecraft may be high.

These are only my opinions and hunches.

 

[ldlager]

I was reviewing the case in my mind and here are some of the thoughts I came up with.

1) Two planned and distinct events took place, the murders and the staging of the bodies. Who wanted to have the bodies staged will point the perpetrator(s).

2) The scene appears to be neat and tidy, with no signs of emotional anger, and the dearth of forensic evidence (my assumption only) points to the likelihood of trained/professional/experts who were hired, committing the crime is high.

3) Since 'pros' are expensive, and the victims high profile I would expect the involvement of significant financial resources to finance this crime.

4) Law Enforcement likely have checked travel activity via Pearson airport after the Sherman deaths. I would be looking for individuals who had been in Canada a short time (few weeks at most), likely males, traveling alone, possibly arriving from different locales, and leaving for different locales.

5) Chances they would be males, 30-50 years of age, physically fit, and have a common language. Likely they would also be relatively fluent in English as well. I would cross reference individuals who meet that profile with the surveillance videos from the Sherman's neighbourhood.

6) The assailants had to arrive at the Sherman's from somewhere and leave the Sherman's. What mode of transport is crucial. Uber, Taxi, Rental Car? Private car? On foot? Work/Trades or Utility Truck? All of the Above? Any records or videos of people coming or going from area?

7) Being pros, the assailants, would be especially cognizant of the need to not be noticed coming or going, so the likelihood of disguises, misdirection, and other tradecraft may be high.

These are only my opinions and hunches.

Regarding #1- Do we in fact know that they were murdered and then staged? What I mean is, is it possible that they were strangled with the belts while they were attached to the railing? Perhaps the killer(s) leaned on/pushed down on their shoulders while they were attached to the railing until they suffocated. HS could have been alive when attached to the railing even though her blood was on the floor as previously published. Have I forgotten some evidence that would eliminate this possibility?

 

[WINDSOR]

Regarding #1- Do we in fact know that they were murdered and then staged? What I mean is, is it possible that they were strangled with the belts while they were attached to the railing? Perhaps the killer(s) leaned on/pushed down on their shoulders while they were attached to the railing until they suffocated. HS could have been alive when attached to the railing even though her blood was on the floor as previously published. Have I forgotten some evidence that would eliminate this possibility?

To be clear, I am speaking about two events, the murder and the staging, not in a time or sequential event concept, but as two distinct objectives. The Sherman's death was one objective of the assailants, and the staging was another.

If you just wanted the Shermans dead, the staging was not necessary. I cannot comprehend that if the only objective was their death, the assailants would use the pool area railing, and the belts as the method.

Possibly the staging was intended to confuse the investigators into believing that it was a murder/suicide, but for the assailants to do that, would mean they were underestimating the TPS.

I believe the staging had a specific purpose, was planned well prior to the murders, took time and had significance for some individuals known to both the Shermans and the perpetrator(s).

It also means that somebody involved in the murders likely had access to the Sherman's home to do the planning.

 

[JDG]

I agree with most of your other points, but I'm a little confused by these two statements as they seem to disagree with each other. If 1 in 3 autopsies reaches the wrong conclusion, then why would you assume that both coroners would have come to similar conclusions? In fact, mathematically, if the 1/3 statistic is true, there would be a 4/9 chance that two autopsies would result in different conclusions, one correct and one incorrect.

The first comment was in regards to clinical autopsies. A 'regular' autopsy, if you will, done by a pathologist.

The second comment was in regards to medico-legal autopsies which are done by forensic pathologists.

They are not only two different types of autopsies, looking for different things, but the professionals doing them are trained in two different specialties.

Not sure about your math.

 

[JDG]

Some people still believe that the Ramseys didn't have anything to do with killing their kid. When you have that much money and power, pink can indeed be orange, especially if the only consequence is passing a suicide off as a murder that will never be solved. Nobody gets hurt, everybody wins.

So, you are stating that the TPS has been bought off by the Sherman family?

There is no integrity within the TPS, passing off a suicide as a murder that will never be solved.
You haven't got a clue as to wether or not the Sherman case will ever be solved, its very complexities will require much more investigation.

FWIW, and its worth a lot, passing off a suicide as a murder could/would be committing fraud (amongst other things) if there were life insurance or any other financial gain involved etc.

Nobody gets hurt, everybody wins? Wow!

 

[ldlager]

To be clear, I am speaking about two events, the murder and the staging, not in a time or sequential event concept, but as two distinct objectives. The Sherman's death was one objective of the assailants, and the staging was another.

If you just wanted the Shermans dead, the staging was not necessary. I cannot comprehend that if the only objective was their death, the assailants would use the pool area railing, and the belts as the method.

Possibly the staging was intended to confuse the investigators into believing that it was a murder/suicide, but for the assailants to do that, would mean they were underestimating the TPS.

I believe the staging had a specific purpose, was planned well prior to the murders, took time and had significance for some individuals known to both the Shermans and the perpetrator(s).

It also means that somebody involved in the murders likely had access to the Sherman's home to do the planning.

Thanks for the clarification Windsor.
FWIW I’m not at all sure that the TPS weren’t fooled by the staging.

 

[WINDSOR]

Thanks for the clarification Windsor.
FWIW I’m not at all sure that the TPS weren’t fooled by the staging.

The TPS might have been fooled for a little while, but the key missing piece of evidence for a murder/suicide scenario was the lack of a suicide note or similar explanation or suicidal behavior indicators on Barry's part prior to the deaths.

As I stated before, and I could be very wrong, I think the assailants did the staging for a specific reason, beyond fooling the police.

 

[ldlager]

The TPS might have been fooled for a little while, but the key missing piece of evidence for a murder/suicide scenario was the lack of a suicide note or similar explanation or suicidal behavior indicators on Barry's part prior to the deaths.

As I stated before, and I could be very wrong, I think the assailants did the staging for a specific reason, beyond fooling the police.

Maybe there was in fact a suicide note. He could have been forced to write one perhaps.I doubt we will ever know what really happened.

 

[Peace777]

Link to an article with PDF about the rarity of murderers
posing and staging of body/ies at a crime scene https://www.researchgate.net/public...positions_of_Victim_Bodies_Staging_and_Posing

 

[AllyJane]

You can believe what you want. Simple fact is that in those early days the family had no access to the crime scene, so how would they know that it wasn't a suicide? I'll tell you something from personal experience, family's first response to a suicide is denial. Always. I have also seen police declare a suicide as a death by misadventure simply to make the situation easier on the surviving family. Gomes will do whatever her superiors tell her to do. Time will tell if I am right or wrong, but I am willing to bet that this case is destined for the cold case files and I would be very surprised if we ever get another update on it.

The family would also have access to a lot of personal info that the police don't like threats made, the orphaned cousins, the state of their parents' marriage, the state of the health of their parents, etc. Unless a note was left behind, it was ridiculous for the police to announce a theory before the bodies were removed or doing any investigation aside from no signs of forced entry. If that is the only standard for M/S then they may need to go back to Mayberry.

Also their team consists of people who were top of their field in LE so it is not like they are hiring some shmoes off the street. I doubt that Chaisson would risk his reputation on altering information.

 

[AllyJane]

To be clear, I am speaking about two events, the murder and the staging, not in a time or sequential event concept, but as two distinct objectives. The Sherman's death was one objective of the assailants, and the staging was another.

If you just wanted the Shermans dead, the staging was not necessary. I cannot comprehend that if the only objective was their death, the assailants would use the pool area railing, and the belts as the method.

Possibly the staging was intended to confuse the investigators into believing that it was a murder/suicide, but for the assailants to do that, would mean they were underestimating the TPS.

I believe the staging had a specific purpose, was planned well prior to the murders, took time and had significance for some individuals known to both the Shermans and the perpetrator(s).

It also means that somebody involved in the murders likely had access to the Sherman's home to do the planning.

I agree about the staging. I mean both HS and BS were in their 70's. They were next to the pool. Wouldn't it be easier to drown them in the pool and go? Based on what little we know, HS was lying in her own blood first and then they were strangled and tied to the railing (based on that they were found in a semi sitting position back to the pool so I am thinking they were strangled before tied to the railing). This sounds like planning went into it and it was sending a message otherwise if the goal was just to kill them then why not shoot with a silencer while they are asleep at night?

 

[Errrr]

I'm going to have to go for a strong disagree with you on that one. From personal experience, family's response is definitely not always denial. I'm not sure why you would even think that. Surely you can imagine scenarios where a family is even expecting it to be a suicide because of depression, past attempts, etc. even if you've never witnessed that.

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Yes, in the wayne Millard case the family wholeheartedly accepted the idea.

 

[WINDSOR]

If I am correct about the staging of the bodies at the pool was to send a message, decoding what the message was and who it was meant for could lead you back to the perpetrator(s).

What was the message?
' Do not mess with us'.
' Pay us what we want or you are next'?
'You'd better, settle, agree or stop'.
' This is what happens to ____________'
' _______________________________'

Who was the message intended for?
'Sherman family'
'Apotex'
'Investor partners of Sherman's'
'Politicians'
'__________________'

Who has since Sherman's deaths, increased their security, or settled a contentious issue, dispute or lawsuit?