Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #8

[MistyWaters]

We are discussing the possibility of a person suffering from dementia and therefore flying into a hot rage and murdering their spouse? But after that, they somehow regain their mental fortitude and methodically stage the spouse’s death as a suicide and carefully hang themselves by a belt in a similar manner?

That scenario seems highly unlikely to me. Once dementia progresses, it does not flash on and off. The typical symptoms are confusion and forgetfulness, most certainly not murder.

 

[Snoopster]

Firearms are the most commonly used method of suicide for men and women, accounting for 60 percent of all suicides. Nearly 80 percent of all firearm suicides are committed by white males. The second most common method for men is hanging.

I think Michael Hutchins of INXS was the first person I recall found hanging by his belt. Others that have done it include Chester Bennington of Linkin Park, Saddam Hussein, Chris Cornell of Soundgarden, David Carradine, and Cheyenne Brando to name a few.

<modsnip>

According to Stats Canada:

Over the past ten years, the most common method of suicide in Canada has been hanging (44%), which includes strangulation and suffocation; followed by poisoning (25%) and firearm use (16%).

Males were most likely to commit suicide by hanging (46%) while females most often died by poisoning (42%) (Chart 2). Males (20%) were far more likely to use firearms than females (3%).

Suicide rates: An overview

 

[casesensitive]

I think that there HAS to be an obvious reason for the TPS to quickly decide that they were dealing with a murder/suicide at a scene that looked like a double murder. (eg arms restrained behind their backs with their coat sleeves). It is difficult to imagine that the homicide detectives at the scene were merely inept or lazy. The one thing that could explain this early confidence would be something like an "easily visible" suicide note attributed to Barry.

The possibility of a suicide note had been questioned early in the threads, but I find myself thinking more about the possibility, especially after learning how the real estate agent acted after discovering the bodies. It should have looked to her like a gruesome, double murder scene, yet nobody ran out of the house (I would), the agent took the time to call somebody but not 911, and police weren't called to the scene until 40 minutes later. I can understand this kind of reaction if it was apparent that a suicide was involved.
But now it is classified as a targeted double murder. Is it possible that a hand writing expert finally determined that BS did not write, or sign a suicide note? Just a scenario I have considered because I do not believe that there has been a massive cover-up to merely save face for BS's benefit.

 

[Snoopster]

Firearms are the most commonly used method of suicide for men and women, accounting for 60 percent of all suicides. Nearly 80 percent of all firearm
suicides are committed by white males. The second most common method for men is hanging.

I think Michael Hutchins of INXS was the first person I recall found hanging by his belt. Others that have done it include Chester Bennington of Linkin Park, Saddam Hussein, Chris Cornell of Soundgarden, David Carradine, and Cheyenne Brando to name a few.

Where did you get these statistics? I'm curious.

 

[MistyWaters]

I think that there HAS to be an obvious reason for the TPS to quickly decide that they were dealing with a murder/suicide at a scene that looked like a double murder. (eg arms restrained behind their backs with their coat sleeves). It is difficult to imagine that the homicide detectives at the scene were merely inept or lazy. The one thing that could explain this early confidence would be something like an "easily visible" suicide note attributed to Barry.

The possibility of a suicide note had been questioned early in the threads, but I find myself thinking more about the possibility, especially after learning how the real estate agent acted after discovering the bodies. It should have looked to her like a gruesome, double murder scene, yet nobody ran out of the house (I would), the agent took the time to call somebody but not 911, and police weren't called to the scene until 40 minutes later. I can understand this kind of reaction if it was apparent that a suicide was involved.
But now it is classified as a targeted double murder. Is it possible that a hand writing expert finally determined that BS did not write, or sign a suicide note? Just a scenario I have considered because I do not believe that there has been a massive cover-up to merely save face for BS's benefit.

Early media reported LE sources to say the deaths were being investigated as a possible murder/suicide prior to the autopsy being concluded, while TPS officially deemed the circumstances to be “suspicious”.

But it’s the Coroner following the completion of the autopsy who determines how the deaths are caused, not LE who are called to investigate the scene. I’m not convinced there was ever any confusion, maybe LE called it by appearance alone for strategic reasons, we just don’t know.
Common questions about death investigations | Ministry of Community Safety and Correctional Services

 

[MistyWaters]

Where did you get these statistics? I'm curious.

Does anyone recall a media report which indicated how utterly uncommon it is for two people to die of ligature neck compression at the same time? I don’t think I’m dreaming this up but google is not being helpful. IIRC, the article also mentioned US stastics, hardly any.

 

[casesensitive]

Early media reported LE sources to say the deaths were being investigated as a possible murder/suicide prior to the autopsy being concluded, while TPS officially deemed the circumstances to be “suspicious”.

But it’s the Coroner following the completion of the autopsy who determines how the deaths are caused, not LE who are called to investigate the scene. I’m not convinced there was ever any confusion, maybe LE called it by appearance alone for strategic reasons, we just don’t know.
Common questions about death investigations | Ministry of Community Safety and Correctional Services

Yes, I agree with your points, and I know what TPS formally stated (suspicious deaths) and what the police spokesman stated on day one (no forced entry/not looking for any suspects) and that the media used LE sources (possible murder-suicide) and that an autopsy is what determines cause of death, and hopefully the manner of death.

I have also considered that LE may have been using an early strategy, but it is odd that they only listed HS as a murder victim on all of the search warrants for weeks afterward (until the second autopsy leak) which was only discovered when the media petitioned for disclosure on the warrants. And it doesn't explain what I feel is a non-typical reaction to a murder scene by the real estate agent, and the long delay in calling police. You are correct, we just don't know.

I accept LE's determination of a targeted, double murder, but I can understand why some people are having difficulty accepting it.

 

[MistyWaters]

Yes, I agree with your points, and I know what TPS formally stated (suspicious deaths) and what the police spokesman stated on day one (no forced entry/not looking for any suspects) and that the media used LE sources (possible murder-suicide) and that an autopsy is what determines cause of death, and hopefully the manner of death.

I have also considered that LE may have been using an early strategy, but it is odd that they only listed HS as a murder victim on all of the search warrants for weeks afterward (until the second autopsy leak) which was only discovered when the media petitioned for disclosure on the warrants. And it doesn't explain what I feel is a non-typical reaction to a murder scene by the real estate agent, and the long delay in calling police. You are correct, we just don't know.

I accept LE's determination of a targeted, double murder, but I can understand why some people are having difficulty accepting it.

Yeah I know what you mean, Canadian LE are extremely tight-lipped and therefore it becomes near impossible for the public to form conclusions during the criminal investigation phase (not that it really matters about us or what we think....).

But in the past I have to admit I’ve been really amazed at the thorough depth of investigation, most recently for example the Douglas Garland trial. For a time I wondered if maybe he was railroaded because he happened to own an old green truck and was sort of a weird character but once the evidence was revealed during the trial I quickly changed my opinion.

I’m hopeful when charges are laid in this case the answers will be plain as day as well. Although I don’t know the Shermans, I strongly feel both they and their friends and family deserve justice to be served. It sometimes just takes awhile.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Ann Brocklehurst‏ @AnnB03 31. Mai
Just saw Sue Gomes, lead detective in Sherman case, talking to, Mike Carbone, officer in charge for Wayne Millard trial. They declined to talk to me about the Sherman case.

Too bad.

 

[ldlager]

I think that there HAS to be an obvious reason for the TPS to quickly decide that they were dealing with a murder/suicide at a scene that looked like a double murder. (eg arms restrained behind their backs with their coat sleeves). It is difficult to imagine that the homicide detectives at the scene were merely inept or lazy. The one thing that could explain this early confidence would be something like an "easily visible" suicide note attributed to Barry.

The possibility of a suicide note had been questioned early in the threads, but I find myself thinking more about the possibility, especially after learning how the real estate agent acted after discovering the bodies. It should have looked to her like a gruesome, double murder scene, yet nobody ran out of the house (I would), the agent took the time to call somebody but not 911, and police weren't called to the scene until 40 minutes later. I can understand this kind of reaction if it was apparent that a suicide was involved.
But now it is classified as a targeted double murder. Is it possible that a hand writing expert finally determined that BS did not write, or sign a suicide note? Just a scenario I have considered because I do not believe that there has been a massive cover-up to merely save face for BS's benefit.

There could have been a note, and Barry could have even been forced to write and sign it. IMO, LE in Ontario has seemingly called murders as suicides too often in some high profile cases lately for these to be just termed an error or misjudgement. I believe there is something systematic going on, whether it’s lack of resources, or lack of desire to conduct complete investigations.
I would still really like to know who arrived at the house and/or accessed the crime scene in the 40-50 mins before the 911 call was made.

 

[ldlager]

Imo their wrists would have been bound behind their backs to restrain them before and during the murder. After that, having their arms bound behind their backs would have made it much easier for the killers to hold the bodies (perhaps one perp holding each arm) to move or drag the bodies to the railing, and then to hold the bodies up by the arms while the belts were wrapped around the necks and the railing. Then the bindings were then cut off and the sleeves pulled down to make the scene look like a double suicide. Imo.

 

[ldlager]

There could have been a note, and Barry could have even been forced to write and sign it. IMO, LE in Ontario has seemingly called murders as suicides too often in some high profile cases lately for these to be just termed an error or misjudgement. I believe there is something systematic going on, whether it’s lack of resources, or lack of desire to conduct complete investigations.
I would still really like to know who arrived at the house and/or accessed the crime scene in the 40-50 mins before the 911 call was made.

Timely article in the National Post today questioning LE,s willingness to undertake complete investigations
Christie Blatchford: Millard murder ruled a suicide inside two days

 

[Indy Anna]

I think that there HAS to be an obvious reason for the TPS to quickly decide that they were dealing with a murder/suicide at a scene that looked like a double murder. (eg arms restrained behind their backs with their coat sleeves). It is difficult to imagine that the homicide detectives at the scene were merely inept or lazy. The one thing that could explain this early confidence would be something like an "easily visible" suicide note attributed to Barry.

The possibility of a suicide note had been questioned early in the threads, but I find myself thinking more about the possibility, especially after learning how the real estate agent acted after discovering the bodies. It should have looked to her like a gruesome, double murder scene, yet nobody ran out of the house (I would), the agent took the time to call somebody but not 911, and police weren't called to the scene until 40 minutes later. I can understand this kind of reaction if it was apparent that a suicide was involved.
But now it is classified as a targeted double murder. Is it possible that a hand writing expert finally determined that BS did not write, or sign a suicide note? Just a scenario I have considered because I do not believe that there has been a massive cover-up to merely save face for BS's benefit.

I wonder how soon after the bodies were discovered Kerry Winter spoke to LE. Could his allegations have led LE to suspect a murder/suicide in the beginning?

MANDEL: Barry Sherman’s cousin Kerry Winter suffered nervous breakdown, sister-in-law tells court

Winter then launched into a series of shocking allegations in the wake of the slayings, including that Sherman twice asked him in the 1990s to “whack” his wife. He later failed a lie detector test about his outlandish accusation.

Winter outraged many by blaming Sherman, telling the Sun’s Joe Warmington, “Barry killed her and committed suicide.”

 

[Grey-St]

If it is proven true that “Private investigators also believe that Honey struggled with her killer or killers.”, I think the perp/s failed to anticipate a 70 year old woman with mobility issues might pose difficulty in subduing. As written by Robert Burns, the best laid plans of mice and men often go awry. In that the deaths were indeed deemed to have been a double homicide lends to the fact there is no such thing as a perfect murder and imo the injuries incurred by Honey was the first big red flag.

I've said this before, but the perp(s) could have also given HS some extra "roughing up" to drive home the idea that she was a victim of BS in comparison.

I also do believe however, that she was more than capable of putting up a fierce fight. The perp(s) could have underestimated her. This is not uncommon for women.

 

[Grey-St]

I don't see BS as having dementia at all. He was a very astute business man who constantly won court battles. For decades. His habit of driving older cars was a life long habit, not a sign of 'losing it'. He was known to be frugal in all manner of things. Maybe he could be classed as 'eccentric' but plenty of people are eccentric.

There is literally no way that my grandmother -who had dementia- could have functioned the way BS did.

 

[Grey-St]

Does anyone recall a media report which indicated how utterly uncommon it is for two people to die of ligature neck compression at the same time? I don’t think I’m dreaming this up but google is not being helpful. IIRC, the article also mentioned US stastics, hardly any.

I remember this in the earlier threads. It was statistically unheard of in terms of suicide.

 

[dotr]

Fwiw..
Couple's double suicide underscores struggles for elderly | CBC News
Oct 30, 2013
The double suicide of an elderly couple who plunged to their deaths in Toronto yesterday is raising concerns about whether enough is being done to support ailing seniors who might consider taking their own lives.

Married couple Marika Ferber and Vladmir Fiser fell 18 storeys from their Etobicoke penthouse apartment. Their bodies were discovered Tuesday morning on the front lawn of the property.

But as disturbing as the scene was, mental-health experts say the suicide rate among the elderly is climbing in Canada.

"It seems to be that in this age group, [suicide] is quite common — more so than in younger age groups," Dr. Robert Madan, the chief of psychiatry at Baycrest said.

The latest data from Statistics Canada, published in 2009, states that men in their late 80s have the highest suicide rate among any age group, with 31 out of every 100,000 people killing themselves.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/1556-4029.13247
Double Hanging with Single Ligature: An Unusual Method in Suicide Pact
A married casual labor couple was found hanging in their makeshift bedroom with each end of a single chunni (a cloth worn around the neck by Indian women) spread across an iron bar below the roof.
Suicide in the Elderly
Older adults make up 12% of the US population, but account for 18% of all suicide deaths. This is an alarming statistic, as the elderly are the fastest growing segment of the population, making the issue of later-life suicide a major public health priority.

In 2002, the annual suicide rate for persons over the age of 65 was over 15 per 100,000 individuals; this number increases for those aged 75 to 84, with over 17 suicide deaths per every 100,000. The number rises even higher for those over age 85
Double suicides involving spouses or partners occur most frequently among the aged.

 

[JDG]

dotr, May I just add to your link re: suicide in the elderly ^^^ that most of those suicides are due to illness of one or both persons, lack of resources, not enough community care, lack of family support/family period. and on and on......

The Shermans were not terribly ill, as far as we know. They were not short of resources nor family members nor community help if needed.
Certainly, they were not poor nor struggling to feed themselves. etc, etc.

Although suicide is a problem for ailing elderly and lonely elderly, I do not think it applies to this case. IMO

 

[Satchie]

There could have been a note, and Barry could have even been forced to write and sign it. IMO, LE in Ontario has seemingly called murders as suicides too often in some high profile cases lately for these to be just termed an error or misjudgement. I believe there is something systematic going on, whether it’s lack of resources, or lack of desire to conduct complete investigations.
I would still really like to know who arrived at the house and/or accessed the crime scene in the 40-50 mins before the 911 call was made.

The sad truth is, there are some 6,000 cases of suicide per year in Canada, and pretty much 100% percent are exactly that: suicide. Leaving in their wake shattered families, grief, guilt, turmoil.

I do not agree that it's the job of police to assume all those suicides are potentially murders, that without any evidence whatever police should pry into the family, interrogate them, accuse them of lying, refuse to allow the case to be closed. That since Dellen Millard, a psychopath, almost got away with it, we should now assume everyone is just like him?

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Married couple Marika Ferber and Vladmir Fiser fell 18 storeys from their Etobicoke penthouse apartment. Their bodies were discovered Tuesday morning on the front lawn of the property.

What a tragic story of lifelong friends turned loving spouses after becoming widow/widower.
Btw I noticed:
“At this point, investigators do not believe the deaths are suspicious,” Const. Sarah Diamond said.
“It’s being treated as a double suicide,” she said, explaining suicide notes were found in the couple’s 18th-floor apartment.
The coroner’s office is investigating. (in addition or anyway?)
Elderly T.O. couple dead in double suicide