Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #8

[JDG]

I am sure the clients taken through the house were select and not .The police have probably already got their names and interviewed them.

Not everyone gives their proper names to view homes. Even in that neighbourhood. And, at least one neighbour had seen the house out of curiosity, so they also get .

There are Open Houses in all neighbourhoods of TO, no prescreening although the realtor would like that for future contacts.

 

[JDG]

Expensive homes like the Shermans' are usually shown by appointment only. Realtors don't provide open houses for the public. They also require proof that the interested buyers can actually afford the property, so as not to waste their time, and to weed out looky-loos (just looking folks). Unless a buyer used false id and doctored documents, LE has their names and planned on interviewing all them.

Casesensitive, one doesn't need ID to view homes in Toronto, even expensive ones. An Open House is exactly that, in the hopes that people driving by can pop in. There are some 'exclusives' where you have to call but you don't need ID of any sort or proof that you can afford the house. Fake names are often used so that you are not besieged by realtor calls.

 

[MistyWaters]

Not everyone gives their proper names to view homes. Even in that neighbourhood. And, at least one neighbour had seen the house out of curiosity, so they also get .

There are Open Houses in all neighbourhoods of TO, no prescreening although the realtor would like that for future contacts.

You’re right. Or the realtor also might inquire about mortgage needs. That’s not prescreening either. If the prospective client discloses they will require a mortgage....well guess what, probably the realtor knows an awesome mortgage broker who gives great rates! (realtors generally get paid referral/finders fees.)

 

[casesensitive]

Expensive homes like the Shermans' are usually shown by appointment only. Realtors don't provide open houses for the public. They also require proof that the interested buyers can actually afford the property, so as not to waste their time, and to weed out looky-loos (just looking folks). Unless a buyer used false id and doctored documents, LE has their names and planned on interviewing all them.

Sorry to quote my own post, but I think it was misread.

--I did not say that LE has cleared anyone
--I did not say that you have to provide ID to go to an Open House
--I did not say realtors prescreen people for an Open House
--I did say there are no Open Houses for the public on expensive houses (never found one for the Shermans)
--I did say that it's possible that someone used fake ID or doctored documents
--When I got my real estate certificate, I had learned that you prescreen buyers for expensive listings

 

[ldlager]

Well this just doesn’t jive.

Unless an illegal surveillance camera was planted inside the Sherman residence as a means of stalking them and the murder/s removed it upon their exit. Considering the home was listed for sale, anyone requesting a viewing had access inside the home. One realtor, 2 or 3 prospective buyers wandering about....realtor is focused on selling, not supervising.

Thanks Kerry, you’ve presented a possible theory about how anyone could’ve known the Sherman schedule, when they planned to be home alone, what days their service staff were going to be present, and so forth.

Many knew their schedule. Cleaners, friends, family, the trainer, and of course we can’t forget the realtor. The one that evidently called others, but not the police for 45 mins after the bodies were found.

 

[human]

Not sure what you mean by . IMO the Sherman murderer/s were deceptive and conniving, whether a professional hit or not. Realtors provide a service in showing homes for sale but there is no legal stipulation that interested buyers are required to present identification and a resume in order to qualify for a showing.

LE did state the Shermans were “targeted” which indicates the element of preplanning and preparation. And the opportunity to preview the home in advance was there.

Of course it may be different in Canada, but where I lived in MN, only prequalified buyers were allowed to see high end homes.

From a real estate site in the US.


Tim Moore, Agent, Kitty Hawk, NC
Tue Mar 3, 2015
Pre-approval and Pre-qualified are different things. pre-qual is very basic and pre-approved is a bit more involved. In either case the lender will provide a letter saying they have been. So just ask for it to be shown to you.

 

[MistyWaters]

Of course it may be different in Canada, but where I lived in MN, only prequalified buyers were allowed to see high end homes.

From a real estate site in the US.


Tim Moore, Agent, Kitty Hawk, NC
Tue Mar 3, 2015
Pre-approval and Pre-qualified are different things. pre-qual is very basic and pre-approved is a bit more involved. In either case the lender will provide a letter saying they have been. So just ask for it to be shown to you.

Your quote referring to a lender and difference in the terms preapproval and prequalified is in relation to lending (ie mortgage financing). That’s quite standard in Canada as well. Realtors prefer to ensure non-cash buyers are able to obtain a mortgage mainly so they know precisely what price range of homes they should be interested in and can generally lead into a stronger offer to purchase. But a lender preapproving or prequalifying a client for a mortgage is not at all the same as realtors directly prescreening a potential buyer’s personal financial situation especifically if they choose not to disclose their intended source of funding.

Just a point, while Shermans home was on the market for just under $7 million, in 2017 the average price of a detached home in all of Toronto was $1.2 million. Indeed it was an expensive home but not as highly priced as other exclusive homes sitting at the top of the market.

Average price of Toronto real estate fell in past 12 months, with sales off 20% | CBC News

 

[MistyWaters]

Many knew their schedule. Cleaners, friends, family, the trainer, and of course we can’t forget the realtor. The one that evidently called others, but not the police for 45 mins after the bodies were found.

I wonder what date the appointment for the Friday, Dec 15th viewing was arranged. To me it’d seem unusual that the cleaner and plant waterer wouldn’t have been rescheduled to complete their tasks prior to the viewing. That’s just another unanswered question and I suppose it could’ve been arranged at most a day prior and email or text notifications were used to communicate. But the reason I wonder is because I recently sold a home and I did receive online notifications, however I was also required to confirm/agree to the date and time of viewings.

 

[human]

Your quote referring to a lender and difference in the terms preapproval and prequalified is in relation to lending (ie mortgage financing). That’s quite standard in Canada as well. Realtors prefer to ensure non-cash buyers are able to obtain a mortgage mainly so they know precisely what price range of homes they should be interested in and can generally lead into a stronger offer to purchase. But a lender preapproving or prequalifying a client for a mortgage is not at all the same as realtors directly prescreening a potential buyer’s personal financial situation especifically if they choose not to disclose their intended source of funding.

Just a point, while Shermans home was on the market for just under $7 million, in 2017 the average price of a detached home in all of Toronto was $1.2 million. Indeed it was an expensive home but not as highly priced as other exclusive homes sitting at the top of the market.

Average price of Toronto real estate fell in past 12 months, with sales off 20% | CBC News

There is quite a difference between one million and seven million.

. A real eatate person can ask to see the preapproval so they do not have to waste their time showing a house to a person who cannot buy it.

All the neighbors like to see an open house. Check and see how their house compares. So that is why agents do not want to waste their time.

I know of people who would spend their days going to open houses for entertainment.

When my neighbors had their expensive home for sale and there was an open house, all of the neighbors went to check it out.

I have heard that people even look in drawers . So I think for a high end house, the people who get to look are limited

 

[bluesneakers]

There is quite a difference between one million and seven million.

sbm

Search around Toronto real estate. There are homes for sale as high as $10 - 20 million.
Greater Toronto Area, ON Luxury Real Estate and Homes for Sales | Sotheby's International Realty Canada

Toronto Real Estate for Sale - Search MLS | Zoocasa

 

[human]

sbm

Search around Toronto real estate. There are homes for sale as high as $10 - 20 million.
Greater Toronto Area, ON Luxury Real Estate and Homes for Sales | Sotheby's International Realty Canada

I still think a $7 mil home will not have an open house. I still think you will have to show you can afford to buy it. I still think it will be an appt showing.

I seriously doubt that rich people want just anyone walking through their home and looking in their drawers and closets.

 

[human]

sbm

Search around Toronto real estate. There are homes for sale as high as $10 - 20 million.
Greater Toronto Area, ON Luxury Real Estate and Homes for Sales | Sotheby's International Realty Canada

Toronto Real Estate for Sale - Search MLS | Zoocasa

I like the pool in this house better. At least it has light. But what does anyone do with a house where you probably need a golf cart to access one end of the house to the other?

1450 19th Sideroad, King, Ontario | Sotheby's International Realty Canada

 

[JDG]

I still think a $7 mil home will not have an open house. I still think you will have to show you can afford to buy it. I still think it will be an appt showing.

I seriously doubt that rich people want just anyone walking through their home and looking in their drawers and closets.

No realtor would ask if you CAN afford the house. Its probably illegal to do so in Ontario. Its none of their business unless/until you put in an offer.

Shermans' house had been emptied and staged for sale. Its somewhere on an earlier thread that someone who knew them had said 'she really emptied it out' before the Open House. I believe the Open House was a week or two before they were killed. The woman across the road said she had gone over to check it out, check out the decor etc.

IF its an Open House, its open to all. If there is no Open House, then you'd have to call the realtor, any realtor and ask for a 'private showing'. There is NO obligation to show/tell any realtor your financial business. You simply want to see the house.

Human, even 'ordinary' listings have removed anything of value and their undies from the home before listing it. You'd be staring at an empty drawer, likely from a warehouse. Most realtors push for you to 'stage' the house, may or may not be the owners furniture.

Canadian laws and American laws are often totally different and we also vary between provinces, as Americans do states.

 

[casesensitive]

Many knew their schedule. Cleaners, friends, family, the trainer, and of course we can’t forget the realtor. The one that evidently called others, but not the police for 45 mins after the bodies were found.

The housekeeper and plant waterer (who came once a week) arrived at 8:30am on the Friday. The unknown source said they busied themselves on the first and second floors for the next two hours and didn't come downstairs. Obviously they didn't go looking for Honey when they arrived although both Sherman cars were at the house, apparently unnoticed.

The real estate agent arrived at 10:30 and found the bodies shortly after 11:00.

I always wondered how it took the plant waterer 2 hours, and possibly 2 1/2 hours just to water plants on the first and second floors. I was just curious as it seemed like an undue amount of time to me.

How the investigation into the deaths of Barry and Honey Sherman turned from murder-suicide to double homicide

 

[casesensitive]

All I'm saying is that this was most like a case of a guy that lost his temper and strangled his wife. I don't think he woke up that morning thinking he was going to kill her.

As for wrists being bound? We never heard anything about that until the family hired team took a second look did we? If there was any meaningful evidence of restraint on Barry's wrists, why would police have investigated this as a murder suicide for so long? So either the marks that the family coroner found were either very minimal, OR THEY WEREN'T THERE AT ALL. As fo Honey, we do not know the extent of the wrist injuries. All I can say is that in cases of restraint that I've seen, the injuries are quite evident. So I don't believe that she was restrained other than Barry possibly holding her wrists during a struggle.

bbm

Andrew, the first pathologist (Dr. Pickup) thought that the wrist injuries were important enough to have photographs of them and to remove the skin from both Shermans wrists for further study.

"Chiasson noticed that all of the skin had been removed from the wrists of both Barry and Honey.
Dr. Michael Pickup entered the autopsy suite. With him, he brought a series of photographs taken at the death scene by Toronto police forensic identification officers, and also detailed photos of the bodies taken prior to the first autopsies that Pickup had performed.

The photos showed markings made by some type of rope or plastic tie that had encircled both Barry and Honey's wrists and damaged the skin. "

How the investigation into the deaths of Barry and Honey Sherman turned from murder-suicide to double homicide

 

[casesensitive]

No realtor would ask if you CAN afford the house. Its probably illegal to do so in Ontario. Its none of their business unless/until you put in an offer.

IF its an Open House, its open to all. If there is no Open House, then you'd have to call the realtor, any realtor and ask for a 'private showing'. There is NO obligation to show/tell any realtor your financial business. You simply want to see the house.

snipped by me.

Since this was a MLS listing, there would have been an Open House for the realtors. These Open Houses are not publicly advertised. I snuck into one in my neighbourhood and was asked what firm I worked for. Busted! lol

Perhaps a Toronto real estate agent can chime in on how they handle interested buyers for multi-million dollar homes.

 

[1&2&3]

The housekeeper and plant waterer (who came once a week) arrived at 8:30am on the Friday. The unknown source said they busied themselves on the first and second floors for the next two hours and didn't come downstairs. Obviously they didn't go looking for Honey when they arrived although both Sherman cars were at the house, apparently unnoticed.

The real estate agent arrived at 10:30 and found the bodies shortly after 11:00.

I always wondered how it took the plant waterer 2 hours, and possibly 2 1/2 hours just to water plants on the first and second floors. I was just curious as it seemed like an undue amount of time to me.

How the investigation into the deaths of Barry and Honey Sherman turned from murder-suicide to double homicide

The plant watering people don’t just water the plants. They may trim them too. If there are orchids or blooming plants, these plants may be replaced with new fresh plants. That is why plants always are blooming and look beautiful in expensive homes.

Wouldn’t that be a nice luxury?

 

[human]

No realtor would ask if you CAN afford the house. Its probably illegal to do so in Ontario. Its none of their business unless/until you put in an offer.

Shermans' house had been emptied and staged for sale. Its somewhere on an earlier thread that someone who knew them had said 'she really emptied it out' before the Open House. I believe the Open House was a week or two before they were killed. The woman across the road said she had gone over to check it out, check out the decor etc.

IF its an Open House, its open to all. If there is no Open House, then you'd have to call the realtor, any realtor and ask for a 'private showing'. There is NO obligation to show/tell any realtor your financial business. You simply want to see the house.

Human, even 'ordinary' listings have removed anything of value and their undies from the home before listing it. You'd be staring at an empty drawer, likely from a warehouse. Most realtors push for you to 'stage' the house, may or may not be the owners furniture.

Canadian laws and American laws are often totally different and we also vary between provinces, as Americans do states.

If one is living in the house, emptying drawers and closets is not possible. They may cull things, but I doubt if they are empty.

I noticed on the expensive home listings that you filled out a form for more info.

 

[JDG]

In the last couple of decades, I have not known anyone to live in the house while its on the market. They either take vacation time and go away or stay with family or at a hotel until the property is sold. The Toronto market was crazy wild and it only took 5 days to sell anything up until a year ago.

You get rid of the dog, board it or give it to someone, take your belongings and scram. Your house hits the market on Thursday, Open House is the weekend and they'd take offers on Tuesday or Wednesday evening.

When we bought, the family were still here with 3 little kids but as soon as we saw it, we knew we were going to buy it. Viewed it on Sunday afternoon, did the paperwork in the evening with the realtor and saw our lawyer first thing on Monday. The sold sign was up before dinner time. The house had been listed on the Friday. We have little interaction with the family, as they took the kids to the local park while we saw the house, twice.

Didn't look through their stuff, too busy checking out the bones of the place, assessing water pressure etc. It went well.

 

[JDG]

Human, a lot of those 'forms' are just to get contact information for the realtor.
If you email or phone, you can set up an appointment easily enough.
IMO, all Open Houses are to benefit the realtor, not to sell the property.
It gives them names of people who might buy a different property from them, if not the one they are viewing. Names and phone numbers are essential in that business.

I've gone into Open Houses for realtors as well. If you are lucky, they'll have coffee and cookies. lol Once again, its so they can network with other realtors and so that other realtors can call their list of clients looking in that area.
Split commission if they don't double end the sale.

They don't seem to mind if you take a walk through or ask questions.

In that business, everyone is a potential client. Its in their best interest to be welcoming.

I doubt I would ever allow an Open House or staging when the time comes to sell. If its priced right, it will sell itself.