Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #8

[Kerry Winter]

'Which' is wrong?

That the costs judgement was awarded in regard to a 'second', perhaps appealed, loss of lawsuit suing BS for part of the value of his company? (If so, that's fine, I had thought I had remembered that this particular judge was 'validating' what another judge had already ruled.)

Or that the news got it wrong and the realtor wasn't really away in Florida when the bodies were discovered?

The lost appeal was in our claim against the executor of my late parents estate: the Royal Trust Company.
The appeal in the Sherman/Apotex claim will happen next month.

 

[MistyWaters]

With current talk in the news regarding the TPS chief being the TO mayor's 'puppet on a string'..... I have to admit that it did cross my mind, wondering if one month into the Sherman investigation, Chief Saunders may have bowed to the pressure he was undoubtedly up against, to state the crime as a double homicide.

Until that time, it seems that TPS was investigating the crime as a murder/suicide for an entire month, which obviously went against what the family wanted to hear, and it seemed from reports that family may have been putting pressure on political allies to do something about it.

I got the distinct impression during the Gomes press conference that she was holding back some hostility, and perhaps that is why I got that impression. She may have been strong-armed into making those statements even if she may not have agreed with them? I can't speak for how it all works, (as opposed to how it is all *supposed* to work), however I could see something like that happening.

In my mind, for TPS to have spent an entire month believing the crime was a murder/suicide, can only mean they must be grossly incompetent (and I don't believe that). At the same time, I don't personally think for a minute that BS killed his wife, or himself. I'm feeling super conflicted. jmo.

Police Chief Saunders launches internal investigation after ‘Dear John’ letter to mayor

Where is it stated that “TPS spent an entire month believing the crime was a murder/suicide”?

Is the source the title of this media report?
Sherman investigation initially focused only on Barry’s wife Honey as a murder victim
Sherman investigation initially focused only on Barry’s wife Honey as a murder victim | The Star

Frankly I think the title reeks of attention-getting sensationalism because the contents of the article do not factually support that conclusion. There’s no way to determine how credible is the anonymous source but it appears it’s someone who wants it to appear TPS very begrudgingly ruled the deaths a double homicide. For that reason I highly doubt it was a reliable source directly within Greenspan’s team because they have nothing to gain through oneupmanship.

From within...

“......On Dec. 20, 2017, five days after the bodies were discovered, Toronto police first sought a search warrant and two “production orders,” stating that “Honey Sherman was the victim of a Murder Section 235 (1) of the Criminal Code of Canada.” Barry Sherman’s name is not mentioned.....”

“......The Star cannot tell from the documents obtained whose accounts are involved in the searches.....”

To make the leap that these writings are proof TPS had settled on murder/suicide early on, we must believe the absence of his name is incriminating, even though the accounts may have only been in Honey’s name.

Then notice this? If their names were not mentioned on the warrant, how does that support the fact they were suddenly both deemed victims of a double homicide?

“.......On Jan. 15, seven more judicial authorizations were granted, two warrants, seven production orders. In this case, the warrants state that “unknown person (s)” did “commit the offence of murder.” At this point, well into the investigation, the search warrant documents obtained by the Star do not reference either Honey or Barry Sherman....”

It seems obvious The Star was provided very limited information, far too insufficient to base any conclusion.

 

[MistyWaters]

...<snipped for reply>

I wish the police would issue some statement.

I do too but then I think, I bet the murderer/s wish that as well. What does LE know, where are they at in their investigation, who, how, what, all that. However they’d also be informing the perpetrator/s who are still walking the streets.

Much like a game of poker, LE always plays their cards as close to their chest as possible. During the investigative phase, stealth mode is a necessary strategy amongst all police forces and it also protects key witnesses from harm. So I think of those people too, folks who were directly acquainted with the Shermans, their family, friends, associates, employees and so forth who may well have very strong suspicions but without absolute proof. It must be heart wrenching for them, the longer that time passes.

 

[enter_a_name]

The whole timing of the listing has always troubled me. Who lists a couple of weeks before Xmas unless you have to? Their new house wasn’t even started, so it’s not like they could move right in. Barry didn’t tolerate what he perceived to be stupid people or stupid decisions, yet they get a realtor to list the house in December? The realtor would have told them Dec wasn’t a great time to list, yet they still made that decision. Seems inconsistent with Barry,s personality to me. I know this has been discussed before, but continues to puzzle me. I think something else was maybe going on here.

I'm not familiar with taxes in Canada but could there be a financial upside to listing and/or selling a home for tax purposes?

 

[nuff]

I'm not familiar with taxes in Canada but could there be a financial upside to listing and/or selling a home for tax purposes?

Not if it's a principal residence, which this was. (If it wasn't, the seller might want any capital gains tax owing on a sale to fall within a particular tax year.)

 

[deugirtni]

Not if it's a principal residence, which this was. (If it wasn't, the seller might want any capital gains tax owing on a sale to fall within a particular tax year.)

Wasn't the property in a corporation name?
In any case, 'listing' date wouldn't make a difference.. even if 'sale' date might.

 

[ldlager]

I do too but then I think, I bet the murderer/s wish that as well. What does LE know, where are they at in their investigation, who, how, what, all that. However they’d also be informing the perpetrator/s who are still walking the streets.

Much like a game of poker, LE always plays their cards as close to their chest as possible. During the investigative phase, stealth mode is a necessary strategy amongst all police forces and it also protects key witnesses from harm. So I think of those people too, folks who were directly acquainted with the Shermans, their family, friends, associates, employees and so forth who may well have very strong suspicions but without absolute proof. It must be heart wrenching for them, the longer that time passes.

Imo if these perps are walking the streets then it’s the streets somewhere in the Middle East.

 

[MistyWaters]

Wasn't the property in a corporation name?
In any case, 'listing' date wouldn't make a difference.. even if 'sale' date might.

I think maybe nuff was referring to the sale falling within a tax year. A corporate tax year end isn’t necessarily Dec 31st. It could’ve been Jan 31st or the end of any other month. While we don’t know anything about corporate matters, I’d agree it is possible the home was listed early with an intended sale date falling within a specific but unknown tax year in order to minimize tax implications.

If the home had ever been registered in the Shermans personal names, it appears at some point in time it was “sold” to the company which reportedly listed it for sale Nov/17 (albeit controlled by BS).

 

[MistyWaters]

I'm not familiar with taxes in Canada but could there be a financial upside to listing and/or selling a home for tax purposes?

In Canada capital gains on primary personal residences that are designated as such are fully tax free and losses aren’t tax deductible, although certain qualifying conditions apply.

But as this home was reportedly held in a business name, capital gains could be applicable depending on the company's valuation of the asset. No doubt there was an entire team of Accountants involved with Apotex and BSs other companies.

JMO

 

[dotr]

Maybe the S's had some kind of scare, threat or dispute that made them want to sell the house?
BS may not have cared one way or another as he had already stated in his unfinished book that he could be targeted by a hit man, but maybe there was a recent and tangible threat that spurred HS into putting the house up for sale immediately?
speculation, imo.

 

[Kerry Winter]

With current talk in the news regarding the TPS chief being the TO mayor's 'puppet on a string'..... I have to admit that it did cross my mind, wondering if one month into the Sherman investigation, Chief Saunders may have bowed to the pressure he was undoubtedly up against, to state the crime as a double homicide.

Until that time, it seems that TPS was investigating the crime as a murder/suicide for an entire month, which obviously went against what the family wanted to hear, and it seemed from reports that family may have been putting pressure on political allies to do something about it.

I got the distinct impression during the Gomes press conference that she was holding back some hostility, and perhaps that is why I got that impression. She may have been strong-armed into making those statements even if she may not have agreed with them? I can't speak for how it all works, (as opposed to how it is all *supposed* to work), however I could see something like that happening.

In my mind, for TPS to have spent an entire month believing the crime was a murder/suicide, can only mean they must be grossly incompetent (and I don't believe that). At the same time, I don't personally think for a minute that BS killed his wife, or himself. I'm feeling super conflicted. jmo.

Police Chief Saunders launches internal investigation after ‘Dear John’ letter to mayor

I had the distinct feeling the Detective Susan Gomes lips were moving during the press conference as she was reading from a script....the only problem: she’s a terrible liar. It’s written all over her face.... that she’s not believing a word she’s saying. Quite comical!!!!

 

[dotr]

"@TorontoPolice News Conference | LiveStream | Friday, Jan. 26th, 2018, 1pm On Friday, January 26, 2018, at 1 p.m., in the Media Gallery at Toronto Police Headquarters, Homicide Detective Sergeant Susan Gomes will update the media on the investigation into the suspicious deaths of Barry Sherman, 75, and Honey Sherman, 70, on Friday, December 15, 2017."

Re post and updated Video (below) with Detective Sergeant Susan Gomes.
The Sherman murder investigation by the numbers
"Toronto homicide detective Sergeant Susan Gomes announced on Jan. 26 that police were treating the suspicious deaths of two billionaire philanthropists, Barry and Honey Sherman, as a double homicide. Gomes spoke to the importance of all the evidence so far collected. “Facts guide our focus,” she said. “Conjecture and speculation have no place.” She described the immensity of the investigation to reporters during a press conference."

 

[MistyWaters]

Ah, I finally found what I was looking for. “A second neighbour that I just spoke to right now confirmed that the Shermans were planning on moving into a condo as their home was for sale...this was their home, you can see there’s a For Sale sign on this home just behind us here.....” (any transcribing errors are mine.)

About 3:12 into the Dec 15th video within this link —-
Pharma giant and philanthropists Barry and Honey Sherman found dead

This is an interesting video. Day 1 homicide detectives were assisting, not leading although the deaths were deemed “suspicious” while awaiting autopsy results. Toxicology results generally takes about a month if I recall correctly? I see no indication by CP24’s reporting that LE had already came to the conclusion this was a murder/suicide. TPS was not looking for any suspects at that time. That sure makes sense because given the appearance of a double suicide or murder/suicide, how could they immediately determine it was actually a staged scene so early on, especially prior to knowing the autopsy results?

Had TPS not pursisted with additional investigation, it would’ve precisely mirrored the shoddy and hasty work involving the circumstances into the death of Wayne Millard.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Perhaps it would be interesting to know, why BS didn't plan to start the Christmas holiday-trip together with HS, but follow her only 1 week later.
Interesting to know also, if he did so before or if in previous years they HS/BS were always travelling together to their FL-address.
Would he have been (that 1 week) still busy with Apotex or busy with the whole selling action of their home or both?
Maybe, there comes into play again the missing charity meeting (and missing apology via call/mail) of HS.
Seemingly something very extraordinary was going on re timing?

 

[MistyWaters]

Another point of speculation is whether the timing was related to listing the house. If the perp(s) knew the layout of the house, that advantage would soon be gone.

In Calgary, the Liknes's were murdered just as they were about to move away. Probably Douglas Garland felt it was his last chance to carry out his plan of revenge.

Since your post, I’ve also been thinking about similarities to the horrible 2014 murders of the Liknes couple and their grandson in Calgary.

In planning their impending move, they’d held an “estate sale” earlier the same day. During the trial it became known Garland had viewed the kijiji ad on his computer and the couple was unknowingly being stalked online by him.

Douglas Garland’s apparent motive was absolutely senseless - a personal grudge because his name wasn’t included on a patent for an oilfield device that he’d helped AL improve years earlier. Especially that the invention never proved financially successful nor did he attempt to sue, an example of how a twisted compulsive maniac can become increasingly obsessed over time. All the while he was making an appearance at his weekly mental health appointments. What I learned from that case is motives for murder can be totally off the wall, far beyond common comprehension.

There was also a fair amount of public speculation regarding the reason the Likness’ had privately sold their house to a lawyer and what was the reason they were moving and where the couple were moving to, Mexico or near Edmonton, sort of similar to this case.

From Thread #1 and maybe only another coincidence to the Likness’ kijiji ad.... Shermans home was featured only the day before the murders in the real estate section of Toronto Life.
Post #13 -
Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #1

 

[Arnie M]

I had the distinct feeling the Detective Susan Gomes lips were moving during the press conference as she was reading from a script....the only problem: she’s a terrible liar. It’s written all over her face.... that she’s not believing a word she’s saying. Quite comical!!!!

.
Yes Kerry ..... I had the same impression when I listened to her back then.

At this moment I think the initial murder-suicide theory may still have merit . Including the fact that there are marks on their wrists that would indicate being tied up.

Some of my winter jackets have a tight elastic band at the wrist ..... I hate them because they are too tight , but I only have to wear them for an hour or two a day.

If I was strangled to death while wearing those jackets , and left hanging there for many many hours , I can guarantee there would be marks on my wrists.

During the autopsy the Shermans clothing would have been long removed and nobody considered elastic sleeve bands . Just a theory .

 

[human]

.
Yes Kerry ..... I had the same impression when I listened to her back then.

At this moment I think the initial murder-suicide theory may still have merit . Including the fact that there are marks on their wrists that would indicate being tied up.

Some of my winter jackets have a tight elastic band at the wrist ..... I hate them because they are too tight , but I only have to wear them for an hour or two a day.

If I was strangled to death while wearing those jackets , and left hanging there for many many hours , I can guarantee there would be marks on my wrists.

During the autopsy the Shermans clothing would have been long removed and nobody considered elastic sleeve bands . Just a theory .

Do you think there is any reason that a billionaire would wear a jacket with such tight bands? They can afford anything they want,

 

[deugirtni]

.
Yes Kerry ..... I had the same impression when I listened to her back then.

At this moment I think the initial murder-suicide theory may still have merit . Including the fact that there are marks on their wrists that would indicate being tied up.

Some of my winter jackets have a tight elastic band at the wrist ..... I hate them because they are too tight , but I only have to wear them for an hour or two a day.

If I was strangled to death while wearing those jackets , and left hanging there for many many hours , I can guarantee there would be marks on my wrists.

During the autopsy the Shermans clothing would have been long removed and nobody considered elastic sleeve bands . Just a theory .

Investigators did have the luxury of seeing crimescene photos however, so I'm certain that would have been considered if it were a possibility?

 

[Arnie M]

Do you think there is any reason that a billionaire would wear a jacket with such tight bands? They can afford anything they want,

.

Not sure what price has to do with it .... my jackets are high-end ..... the idea is to have tight wrist bands so sleeve fits in gloves .... keeps out cold wind etc ..... cheaper jackets have the typical loose sleeve openings.

ps: my jackets really do cut into the wrist , it is like having a narrow elastic band on

 

[Arnie M]

Investigators did have the luxury of seeing crimescene photos however, so I'm certain that would have been considered if it were a possibility?

The way I understand it the jacket sleeves were pulled down , probably covering the wrists.

I have no problem anyone taking exception to my possible theory <modsnip: snark>