CANADA Canada - Ben Tyner, 32, cowboy, horse returned w/o him, Merritt, British Columbia, 26 Jan 2019 - #2

[MistyWaters]

One telling thing in this new search is they are NOT searching the area where his horse was found. They are retracing their steps at the ranch. That said, I believe they are in recovery mode. I doubt they expect to find him hiding in a pile of compost or in a feedlot.

I don’t know, I’m just going by what was reported. By retracing their steps, I take that to indicate they intend on searching the same area where the horse was found once again, at some point in time. Often it’s a matter of having the resources available.

“Sgt. Shoihet says the search would resume at the ranch and then police would retrace their steps now that the weather has changed...”
RCMP resume search for missing B.C. cowboy Ben Tyner, last seen in January

 

[zecats]

They did say foul play, in the sense that they had ruled it out, or not considered it until now,

RCMP say disappearance of B.C. cowboy Ben Tyner ‘may involve criminality’ | The Star

Shoihet says early on investigators requested assistance from major crime detectives, but until this week police had said there was no indication of foul play.

 

[MistyWaters]

They did say foul play, in the sense that they had ruled it out, or not considered it until now,

RCMP say disappearance of B.C. cowboy Ben Tyner ‘may involve criminality’ | The Star

Shoihet says early on investigators requested assistance from major crime detectives, but until this week police had said there was no indication of foul play.

Yes, early on they said there was no evidence of foul play and now they are considering it, wiggle wobbling with the word “may”. It’s very difficult to know what they believe but considering the prior search lasted only a week, part of it in poor weather, I hope they’re able to retrace their steps soon.

Even if they have a suspect, without a body or direct evidence indicating a crime scene and death, a missing person just isn’t enough to base a conviction upon especially if search efforts haven’t been thoroughly exhausted. It’s looking as if solving Ben’s disappearance will require patience, for those of us following along.

There’s another missing persons case to the north in a wooded area near Kamloops. Ryan’s family have been left in limbo as he’s never been found yet, no answers for over a year now. In these wilderness areas with months of winter, then summer and comes wild fires, my heart goes out to everyone, police, SAR teams, family members, involved in these types of searches knowing the best result will only be locating a body regardless of what had occurred.
CANADA - Canada - Ryan Shtuka, 20, Kamloops, BC, 17 Feb 2018

 

[otto]

LE haven’t yet declared they have reason to believe Ben was murdered. It’s concerning if they’ve no evidence one way or another at this point in time. What they did say is the case may involve criminality and Ben’s disappearance is suspicious.

Then only two days ago -

“RCMP Sergeant Janelle Shoihet says the scope of the search hasn’t changed much since Ben Tyner first disappeared......

Sgt. Shoihet says the search would resume at the ranch and then police would retrace their steps now that the weather has changed.

“In January, when the snow was covered, you know you’re not going to be able to see everything,” she said. “You know you’re hopeful at that point that Mr. Tyner was going to be found alive and that this wouldn’t be a recovery. That being said, you never know, stranger things have happened, so we have to hold out that little bit of hope.”..”
RCMP resume search for missing B.C. cowboy Ben Tyner, last seen in January

I'm assuming that RCMP brought in the Major Crimes Unit because the services are needed for the criminal investigation into Ben's disappearance. Investigators always state that they are looking for a living person when the person is missing. At the same time, if Ben was alive, why would investigators be searching the Nicola Ranch? If he were alive and at the ranch, he would not be missing. They are looking for a body, or evidence of foul play, at the ranch.

“Sometimes at the onset of an investigation, there are pieces that don’t quite fit and, while there is nothing definite, they warrant further investigation,” RCMP Sgt. Janelle Shoihet said in a news release.

“Now having had the opportunity to review all the pieces, we believe that the circumstances surrounding Mr. Tyner’s disappearance may involve criminality.”

After seven days of combing the Nicola Valley for a sign of the missing cowboy, Merritt RCMP enlisted support from the Southeast District Major Crime Unit to provide additional resources."​

Police say foul play suspected in case of missing cowboy near Merritt

 

[Trudie]

I'm assuming that RCMP brought in the Major Crimes Unit because the services are needed for the criminal investigation into Ben's disappearance. Investigators always state that they are looking for a living person when the person is missing. At the same time, if Ben was alive, why would investigators be searching the Nicola Ranch? If he were alive and at the ranch, he would not be missing. They are looking for a body, or evidence of foul play, at the ranch.

“Sometimes at the onset of an investigation, there are pieces that don’t quite fit and, while there is nothing definite, they warrant further investigation,” RCMP Sgt. Janelle Shoihet said in a news release.

“Now having had the opportunity to review all the pieces, we believe that the circumstances surrounding Mr. Tyner’s disappearance may involve criminality.”

After seven days of combing the Nicola Valley for a sign of the missing cowboy, Merritt RCMP enlisted support from the Southeast District Major Crime Unit to provide additional resources."​

Police say foul play suspected in case of missing cowboy near Merritt

@otto don’t you think often times police prepare their press release to benefit their investigation, not to deliver accurate news?

 

[otto]

I don’t know, I’m just going by what was reported. By retracing their steps, I take that to indicate they intend on searching the same area where the horse was found once again, at some point in time. Often it’s a matter of having the resources available.

“Sgt. Shoihet says the search would resume at the ranch and then police would retrace their steps now that the weather has changed...”

RCMP resume search for missing B.C. cowboy Ben Tyner, last seen in January

It's good to retrace steps with fresh eyes. Maybe they'll come to the same conclusion as the man who found the horse: that they are looking in the wrong area.

"Kim Robinson hopes searchers are looking in the correct area. He did find the horse, and he knows the area very well.
...

“I feel bad that a lot of the resources are being wasted in an area that I know nobody was in,” Robinson said."​

Merritt search continues with some questioning if cowboy’s disappearance is suspicious

 

[otto]

@otto don’t you think often times police prepare their press release to benefit their investigation, not to deliver accurate news?

I wouldn't say often, but it does happen.

 

[zecats]

It's good to retrace steps with fresh eyes. Maybe they'll come to the same conclusion as the man who found the horse: that they are looking in the wrong area.

"Kim Robinson hopes searchers are looking in the correct area. He did find the horse, and he knows the area very well.
...

“I feel bad that a lot of the resources are being wasted in an area that I know nobody was in,” Robinson said."​

Merritt search continues with some questioning if cowboy’s disappearance is suspicious

I doubt "retracing our steps" means following some path from the ranch all the way back to where Gunny was found. Especially not knowing how Gunny got to where she was located. There were no tracks from the ranch out there in the first place. That's what KR was saying - that the horse came from the opposite direction of the ranch, as in other side of the mountain/ridge where they were searching.

I take the statement from LE to mean they are reexamining whatever clues they have, physically walking the areas where Ben was last seen (not Gunny) and looking for anything that may have been covered in snow up until now. MOO

 

[otto]

Yes, early on they said there was no evidence of foul play and now they are considering it, wiggle wobbling with the word “may”. It’s very difficult to know what they believe but considering the prior search lasted only a week, part of it in poor weather, I hope they’re able to retrace their steps soon.

Even if they have a suspect, without a body or direct evidence indicating a crime scene and death, a missing person just isn’t enough to base a conviction upon especially if search efforts haven’t been thoroughly exhausted. It’s looking as if solving Ben’s disappearance will require patience, for those of us following along.

There’s another missing persons case to the north in a wooded area near Kamloops. Ryan’s family have been left in limbo as he’s never been found yet, no answers for over a year now. In these wilderness areas with months of winter, then summer and comes wild fires, my heart goes out to everyone, police, SAR teams, family members, involved in these types of searches knowing the best result will only be locating a body regardless of what had occurred.
CANADA - Canada - Ryan Shtuka, 20, Kamloops, BC, 17 Feb 2018

Something changed between February 13 and March 19 : evidence must have been found to suggest foul play.

February 13, 2019

"Last week, major-crime detectives were called in to ensure there were no missing pieces, though officials said at the time there was no evidence to suggest foul play"​

'No closure': Family of missing cowboy Ben Tyner appeal for more information in search

March 19, 2019

"It has been nearly two months since Ben Tyner went missing in the Nicola Valley, and police now say foul play is suspected in relation to his mysterious disappearance.​

March 19, 2019
Merritt search continues with some questioning if cowboy’s disappearance is suspicious

 

[Satchie]

I doubt "retracing our steps" means following some path from the ranch all the way back to where Gunny was found. Especially not knowing how Gunny got to where she was located. There were no tracks from the ranch out there in the first place. That's what KR was saying - that the horse came from the opposite direction of the ranch, as in other side of the mountain/ridge where they were searching.

I take the statement from LE to mean they are reexamining whatever clues they have, physically walking the areas where Ben was last seen (not Gunny) and looking for anything that may have been covered in snow up until now. MOO

I agree, they were most likely looking in case anything had been dropped and lost in the snow. Unfortunately, perps could've gone back to the area and checked for that as well.

But for that many police officers to be called out (likely from all the surrounding detachments), and to do a detailed grid search, IMO that indicates they're pretty confident the area they were searching was a crime scene.

 

[otto]

I doubt "retracing our steps" means following some path from the ranch all the way back to where Gunny was found. Especially not knowing how Gunny got to where she was located. There were no tracks from the ranch out there in the first place. That's what KR was saying - that the horse came from the opposite direction of the ranch, as in other side of the mountain/ridge where they were searching.

I take the statement from LE to mean they are reexamining whatever clues they have, physically walking the areas where Ben was last seen (not Gunny) and looking for anything that may have been covered in snow up until now. MOO

First, we have to keep in mind that between February and March 2019, investigators could no longer claim that there is no "evidence" of foul play. That suggests that they have some evidence, and are looking for more information about that evidence.

My impression is that RCMP are revisiting everything they know about Ben : where he worked, who saw him last, where he was, what time it was, whether that information is consistent across more than one witness, who knew that he was going Winter camping, what was the horse eating during his Winter camping trip, how did his horse get to the logging road, where is Ben, what did he do in the time that he was at work, did he make any specific inquires about the ranch, so on.

Snow covered ground should have made it easy to track a horse and a man. If there are no horse tracks, the man is not there and there's no need to search the area again.

Other than Ben missing, are any of his things missing?

 

[zecats]

First, we have to keep in mind that between February and March 2019, investigators could no longer claim that there is no "evidence" of foul play. That suggests that they have some evidence, and are looking for more information about that evidence.

My impression is that RCMP are revisiting everything they know about Ben : where he worked, who saw him last, where he was, what time it was, whether that information is consistent across more than one witness, who knew that he was going Winter camping, what was the horse eating during his Winter camping trip, how did his horse get to the logging road, where is Ben, what did he do in the time that he was at work, did he make any specific inquires about the ranch, so on.

Snow covered ground should have made it easy to track a horse and a man. If there are no horse tracks, the man is not there and there's no need to search the area again.

Other than Ben missing, are any of his things missing?

Not that I’ve seen reported. Cell phone not taken. His dog not taken. He never told anyone he was going out riding or leaving the area on horseback. All things that broke with his normal way of behaving.

I have read that KR tracked the horse back a ways, but to where horse had come from. Opposite direction from ranch. No trace of Ben , no tracks, no items from him or horse were found anywhere. Only reportedly a piece of the horse’s broken rein found by Ben’s brother while searching.

 

[otto]

I agree, they were most likely looking in case anything had been dropped and lost in the snow. Unfortunately, perps could've gone back to the area and checked for that as well.

But for that many police officers to be called out (likely from all the surrounding detachments), and to do a detailed grid search, IMO that indicates they're pretty confident the area they were searching was a crime scene.

It's easy to track a culprit in the snow. Foot prints, or hoof prints, lead you straight to the missing person. There were no prints to follow, which suggests that the horse was found where it was left. Ben was not left in the same place as the horse.

Here's something that can hopefully be answered by someone local. If Ben was left somewhere on one of the Indigenous lands and residential RCMP were making inquiries, would that be reported in media?

Looking at the map, it seems like a possibility (link posted earlier today). A criminal probably doesn't pay attention to landowner boundaries when hiding a body:

 

[otto]

Not that I’ve seen reported. Cell phone not taken. His dog not taken. He never told anyone he was going out riding or leaving the area on horseback. All things that broke with his normal way of behaving.

I have read that KR tracked the horse back a ways, but to where horse had come from. Opposite direction from ranch. No trace of Ben , no tracks, no items from him or horse were found anywhere. Only reportedly a piece of the horse’s broken rein found by Ben’s brother while searching.

That brings me back to the first question I had after learning that foul play was suspected: who first reported that he was going backcountry riding for the weekend? That is the first person I would suspect. When was it first said, who heard it second and when?

Everyone, even cowboys, has a cell phone next to them, especially the manager of a large ranch. Since when do ranchers take weekend getaway vacations? Cowboys and hunters never leave the dog at home.

Could the horse's rein have been broken if the horse was manhandled into a trailer?

 

[MistyWaters]

I doubt "retracing our steps" means following some path from the ranch all the way back to where Gunny was found. Especially not knowing how Gunny got to where she was located. There were no tracks from the ranch out there in the first place. That's what KR was saying - that the horse came from the opposite direction of the ranch, as in other side of the mountain/ridge where they were searching.

I take the statement from LE to mean they are reexamining whatever clues they have, physically walking the areas where Ben was last seen (not Gunny) and looking for anything that may have been covered in snow up until now. MOO

Yes I think so too. Retracing their steps, going over what they’ve already looked at a second time to make sure they didn’t miss anything.

 

[MistyWaters]

First, we have to keep in mind that between February and March 2019, investigators could no longer claim that there is no "evidence" of foul play. That suggests that they have some evidence, and are looking for more information about that evidence.

My impression is that RCMP are revisiting everything they know about Ben : where he worked, who saw him last, where he was, what time it was, whether that information is consistent across more than one witness, who knew that he was going Winter camping, what was the horse eating during his Winter camping trip, how did his horse get to the logging road, where is Ben, what did he do in the time that he was at work, did he make any specific inquires about the ranch, so on.

Snow covered ground should have made it easy to track a horse and a man. If there are no horse tracks, the man is not there and there's no need to search the area again.

Other than Ben missing, are any of his things missing?

According to media reports, tracking was difficult because of logging activity and wild horses in the area. At the time Ben went found to be missing, I don’t think all the ground was entirely snow covered but it did snow within a few days iirc.

As for any of his things missing, LE hasn’t said. Virtually no confirmed info has officially been released.

 

[MistyWaters]

Something changed between February 13 and March 19 : evidence must have been found to suggest foul play.

February 13, 2019

"Last week, major-crime detectives were called in to ensure there were no missing pieces, though officials said at the time there was no evidence to suggest foul play"​

'No closure': Family of missing cowboy Ben Tyner appeal for more information in search

March 19, 2019

"It has been nearly two months since Ben Tyner went missing in the Nicola Valley, and police now say foul play is suspected in relation to his mysterious disappearance.​

March 19, 2019
Merritt search continues with some questioning if cowboy’s disappearance is suspicious

“It has been nearly two months since Ben Tyner went missing in the Nicola Valley, and police now say foul play is suspected in relation to his mysterious disappearance.“

This is not a direct quote, that I’ve been able to locate. It appears to be the reporter’s interpretation of comments pertaining to Ben’s disappearance that “may” involve criminality. However LE did indicate the circumstances surrounding his disappearance appear suspicious.

Every comment the RCMP has made, I’ve noticed they’ve hedged with words such as “could” or “may”. What that means, I don’t know other than they must have their reasons for doing so.

 

[otto]

Trying to visualize the bigger picture, wondering which roads in the Nicola Valley are of most interest, curious how close the horse was to home.

 

[otto]

According to media reports, tracking was difficult because of logging activity and wild horses in the area. At the time Ben went found to be missing, I don’t think all the ground was entirely snow covered but it did snow within a few days iirc.

As for any of his things missing, LE hasn’t said. Virtually no confirmed info has officially been released.

We recently learned in an official statement that "no evidence of foul play" is changed to "foul play suspected."

Even if there are wild horses in the area, when the foot prints stop, there is no reason to continue looking. Snow hides nothing.

If the Ranch Manager's cell phone was not with him on his "ranch-job weekend getaway vacation," then something is wrong. Nothing missing is a problem. Has anyone heard of a ranch manager's weekend getaways? Aren't ranch manager holidays seasonal, with the animals?

 

[watcher9]

Not that I’ve seen reported. Cell phone not taken. His dog not taken. He never told anyone he was going out riding or leaving the area on horseback. All things that broke with his normal way of behaving.

I have read that KR tracked the horse back a ways, but to where horse had come from. Opposite direction from ranch. No trace of Ben , no tracks, no items from him or horse were found anywhere. Only reportedly a piece of the horse’s broken rein found by Ben’s brother while searching.

Just dawned on me when I read your first paragraph. Ben usually let someone know when he goes out. We only have someone's word that this time Ben didn't let anyone know he was going out or where he was going?