CANADA Canada - Christine Jessop, 9, Queensville, Ont, 3 Oct 1984 - #1

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  • #181
Just in case anyone is wondering why I'm so quiet today... I've hit the books.

Reading "NONFAMILY CHILD ABDUCTORS WHO MURDER THEIR VICTIMS" by Kristen R. Beyer and James O.Beasley

And

"A MULTIDISCIPLINARY APPROACH TO SOLVING COLD CASES" by Michael R. King


Will share anything useful I find.
 
  • #182
Re: dedpan -Board policy legal restrictions.
If it's not too much trouble, Orora, could you clarify? I remember reading something about this issue but I haven't been able to find it.

I mainly meant the rules of this board in particular. As soon as you go beyond general conversation to mentioning individuals by name, the rules change a bit. I'd contact one of the mods for clarification on how to approach that and where to draw the line. As far as the overall legalities, the internet is loaded with links to the latest rulings on what constitutes slander or what is going to far. Same as most anything though, if you say it, be prepared to prove it. Opinions are a little different category but they too have to toe the line.

I ilked your wps idea, and would pose questions like, did wps live in the same direction of travel from the Jessop's house as the vehicle reported by the Horwood's in Kemo's post? The Horwoods and the Jessop's are both mentioned in official publications and Kemo is a board alias linked to a verifiable ip address. All are fine to use. Historical fact and opinion.

My "opinion" is that if published in a book, it's pretty safe to mention here. Just name the source. But sorry I don't have the definitive legal answer, question for mod.. Woodland apparently has a legal opinion on using wps real name.
 
  • #183
While waiting for Dedpanman to conduct more phenomenal and in-depth research, will add a little fill-in info.

In my life's experience, sometimes what isn't said can mean more than what is said.

Starting on page 11 of RR, the author gives a rather detailed account of the Queensville Volunteer Fire Department showing up at the Jessop home on 3 October 1984, and rightly so. The 12 or so volunteer members from the community were there to help another member of the community.

The Fire Chief put out the call and by 9:00 pm they were conducting organized searches for Christine. Minus Bob Jessop, who was a volunteer member. So by inference, no one from the fire department could have been in contact with BJ for three weeks prior to this night (incarcerated, previous post).
Page 4 - '... the Jessops might not have fit into either of the two worlds of Queensville had Bob Jessop not joined the volunteer fire department.'
Page 6 - 'She insisted on going with him on errands or down to the firehall.' The context here is Christine's bond with her father becoming stronger.

RR goes on to detail other people that showed up at the Jessop home that night, naming the others whether they were friends, other members of the community or LE. The Fire Chief is named, but unfortunately not the individual members.

The Kaufman Report has no mention what so ever of the Queensville Fire Department showing up that night or the roll that they played - which was significant. The KR mentions most if not all others that RR does, and the roll they played that night.

I didn't notice the omission until Janet Jessop told me that WPS, the guy with the y on the end of the name, was also a member of the Queensville Volunteer Fire Department.

I also find it intriguing that of all the things I heard from the sister of the guy with the y on the end of his name, being a member or former member of the local fire department wasn't one of them. Mind you, there was no love lost between the siblings and the unpaid loan seemed to be the current point of contention.
 
  • #184
I was reading an article called “Criminal Profiling from Crime Scene Analysis” by John Douglas, Robert Ressler, Ann Burgess, and Carol Hartman, and I came across this excerpt:

(Note: in this analysis, they are discussing a crime in which a woman was found murdered. She had been raped and strangled and left in a humiliating position. She had sustained a massive blunt force trauma to the face that would have rendered her unconscious, or most likely, killed her.)

Although the offender might have preferred his victim conscious, he had to render her unconscious because he did not want to get caught. He did not want to the woman screaming for help.

The murderer’s infliction of sexual, sadistic acts on an inanimate body suggests he was disorganized. He probably would be a very confused person, possibly with previous mental problems. If he had carried out such acts on a living victim, he would have a different type of personality. The fact that he inflicted acts on a dead or unconscious person indicated his inability to function with a live or conscious person.

The crime scene reflected that the killer felt justified in his actions and that he felt no remorse. He was not subtle. He left the victim in a provocative, humiliating position, exactly the way he wanted her to be found.


Reading this made me think of this detail from C’s second autopsy:

A “massive fracture radiating out from the nasal bones and encompassing most of the facial structure” – this was severe enough to have brought on unconsciousness and perhaps death.

Apply what the authors said in their case to this one (I know this has been brought up before in other places but we haven’t discussed this issue here). The issue that the perpetrator rendered C unconscious, or even killed her with this severe facial injury first, before taking her somewhere to do what he needed to do.

Notice how our picture of this guy changes radically if this was his M.O. -- to render her an “inanimate body” first, in order to minimize getting caught while trying to abduct her. If C was unconscious, or dead, he was free to indulge in whatever sick fantasy he had in mind once he got her to a safe location.

That puts all of the other injuries in a new (and disturbing) light.

I also bring up the idea of fantasy here, because in reading through this stuff, the issue of “sick fantasy” kept coming up. I remember reading elsewhere that “acting out a fantasy” was a primary goal for both Russell Williams and Dennis Rader (BTK). These kinds of perpetrators fantasize about a specific sick scenario and it repeats in their mind and gets so powerful they eventually succumb to it and have to “live it”.

Did that happen here?

Another section from another article (“Murderers Who Rape and Mutilate” by Robert Ressler, Ann Burgess, Carol Hartman, John Douglas, Arlene McCormack) that resounded with me - regarding murder behavior:

One murderer said the mutilation was a way of disposing of the body, implying he had a pragmatic reason for the mutilation. However, the autopsy report revealed that in addition to cutting up the body, he also pulled out the victim’s fingernails after death, something he claimed not to remember.

In other words – the mutilation was part of his fantasy – just like removing the fingernails.

The implication here, for us, is that if C was killed seconds before the abduction with the blunt force trauma to her face, then all of the other injuries she sustained were post mortem.

That means the cutting of the throat, the stabbing, the attempted decapitation (if that’s what it was) and the “phenomenal injury” of half the breastbone missing, sheared off in a straight, vertical line – an attempt to open up the chest” were all part of the perpetrator’s fantasy.

He was enacting or "living" what was in his mind in order to get himself off.
 
  • #185
Very fascinating information Dedpanamn - looking forward to others weighing in with thoughts. I believe much of the above took place in some order or another.

My initial observations -

For practical reasons (semen deposited in underwear), Christine was redressed, or allowed to redress following a sexual assault. Seems to me she was conscious and able to at least take part in this.

Rendering her unconscious before removing her from her home (my take on events) adds complications to the abduction - getting her to a vehicle. We don't know if the abductor was alone in this part or not.

The information is compelling in that Christine was dressed during much of the decomp process according to evidence found on her clothing. For some reason her clothing, except the socks, were removed. Is that when some of the mutilation took place? Mind boggling idea.

Something else that draws me to this info and I'm skittish about revealing it - WPS father did not participate in sexual acts with a 9 year-old girl, but he did encourage and observe. Why? Not the preferred gender? Conscious?
 
  • #186
I’ll try to paint a new scenario (but, maybe it’s not that new) and I’ll try to work in some of the things you have issues with.

Let me talk about the point where C encountered her abductor (I’ll call him P for Perpetrator) and let’s say they meet in the cemetery (or if you’re stuck on the witness testimonies – the park). He must get her into a vehicle. He has to.

P has two options for getting her out of Queensville to his “safe place” in said vehicle. He can be deceptive and trick her into getting into his vehicle, or he can overpower her immediately with violent physical force and put her into his vehicle himself. Which ever he chooses, he must at some point overpower her completely.

Let’s say he opts for the deceptive tactic. He entices or tricks C into his vehicle with the pretence of going to see her father in jail, or some other story. At some point, as they’re driving, C is going to realize that she has been tricked and she’s in great danger. If she thrashes around in the car, tries to escape, scream, or wave at people, P is now at high-risk for getting caught. Trying to subdue her while driving could lead to erratic driving and a crash and it is game over.

So, the only advantage, really, to the deceptive tactic is that C gets into his car of her own free will.

But, if he overpowers her immediately in a blitz attack – strikes her in the face with such force as to render her unconscious - or to kill her – his escape with C is much easier, and he’s at a much lower risk for getting caught because she isn’t able to do anything. The hard part is putting her in the car – but maybe that’s not all that hard as she wasn’t a big girl at all and his vehicle isn’t that far away. (It has to be close by.)

Now P has freedom to drive anywhere, take his time, and not have to worry about escape attempts, screams, thrashing, etc.

He takes her to his “safe place”. Maybe it’s a secondary site (a farm, a barn, etc.) or maybe he takes her directly to Sunderland to the seclusion and privacy of the area around the Culls’ trailer.

Whichever it is, C is just an inanimate object now. He feels powerful. Excited. He can do whatever he wants now. Undress her, stab her, whatever he has to do to fulfill his fantasy. How does the semen get on her underwear? He masturbates with them, or onto them, after he’s done defiling the body. Many killers (e.g. Dennis Rader and Russell Williams) masturbated after the fact. I will argue here (for the sake of arguing here) that the real sexual act is the stabbing and the other injuries C suffered.

Now if P has taken C to Sunderland, all he has to do is drive away. And by the way – he’s not covered in blood like John Douglas imagines, because she was already dead when he stabbed her and cut her throat. He has very little blood on him.

If P has taken C to a barn, or shed, or someplace, it needs to be super-super-safe. The body can’t be discovered by family or friends or police happening by as they search for a missing girl. I’m having trouble imagining what and where this other “safe place” might be where these things would not stress out P. Seems to me he’d want to put as much distance between himself and the dead body once he’s done with her.

Thoughts?
 
  • #187
No issues btw, looking for what could have happened and discounting what is not feasible.

If she sustained the fracture to her nose that radiated into her skull in her home, I have to think there would have been blood. That would be noticed at some point.

Enticing her into his vehicle - absolutely possible, more so if she knew who he was. Note that RR reports BJ's incarceration was not told to anyone - the ruse was he was on a course in California. Ken Jessop posting as Towserdog has said Bob's incarceration was known to few as well. Big leap imo to use I'm taking you to see your father, unless the killer knew Bob was able to be visited somewhere.

As for how the rest played out - I don't know. Would like to hear from others on how long she may have been alive for using various scenarios from above - I think most or all could be incorporated into something feasible.
 
  • #188
Chuckles.

Page 4 of RR - 'As the autumn of 1984 began to come into its own, neighbours and friends of the Jessops were carefully instructed that Bob had gone off on a long business trip to California.'

The course in California - my husband, San Francisco, circa 2003.

I have no problem admitting I blur the lines now and again. My hope is that's what this forum is for - keep it straight and keep it accurate.

Question the facts, no matter how small.
 
  • #189
1. Do you think someone knew C's father was "away" and took advantage of that?

2. Do you think someone could have used that knowledge to lure C away, i.e. to go see her father?

3. Do you think, given the 20 min. window of opportunity, that it was planned, or a random crime?

4. Do you think C knew her abductor?

5. Where do you think C encountered her abductor?
 
  • #190
Assuming the 'do you think' questions are for me -

1. Queensville folks knew Bob Jessop was away - exactly where was insignificant - he was missing in action. A killer wanting to kill needs more than that?

2. As I mentioned, luring Christine away 'to go see her father' narrows the suspect pool significantly. Seems to me that will only be sorted if and when a killer confesses and reveals exactly what any conversation took place between him and Christine. Even a conviction based on a DNA match will not reveal what conversation took place.

3. Planned based on knowing Bob Jessop was away which narrowed the opportunity.

4. Yes.

5. Her home.

Opening line of Redrum - page 1 - a quote from Bob Jessop -

'I honestly think if it hadn't been that day it would have been another.'

Bob Jessop thought long and hard on his daughters abduction and murder to come up with that statement - that thought didn't materialize on day one. Jmo.
 
  • #191
Re: Woodland
WPS father did not participate in sexual acts with a 9 year-old girl, but he did encourage and observe. Why? Not the preferred gender? Conscious?

Sorry, missed the leap to "knowing" this.. Is this one of the parties or group alleged to have been molesting Christine befor her murder? Where did the above information come from? Seems a factual statement is being made? Source?
WPS father did not participate in sexual acts with a 9 year-old girl, but he did encourage and observe
 
  • #192
Woodland -

'I honestly think if it hadn't been that day it would have been another.' - Bob Jessop

I always fumble for words when I think about that strange quote from C's father. And, readers, don't get me wrong - I don't think it's sinister, I think it's sad. A man resigned to the cruelty of fate. But, it also hints at...

Conspiracy.

A poignant detail from C's grave monument:
 

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  • #193
She was an assistant prof at the time and a PhD student (archaeology student makes her seem less than what she was, I guess). She was teaching Forensic Anthropology as well. I saw the slides in '93. Sorry, I haven't read this whole thread through at all. Are you writing a book? This case and the Bernardo case pretty much consumed my time and thoughts, especially after seeing those slides. I remember seeing her skull and face, her breastbone and rib cage and close ups of the cut marks on the ribs. The slides were to show what was missed in the first autopsy. I think there were some missing toe and finger bones that were recovered later on but I can't remember if there were slides of those.

No, Matou, I'm not writing a book (but someone should). We're all just very hungry for new information, new clues, new data, etc. "New" means new to us.

You were in a privileged position to see those images. How did you know Gruspier? What was the context of her showing you those slides?

I will post a more detailed bio of her. She's had a very accomplished career.
 
  • #194
This bio is from the LAURIER website. (She's alumni.)

Kathy Gruspier fell in love with bones as a Laurier archaeology student on a dig in Jordan. A tomb had just been opened. Inside were terra cotta figurines and bowls. “I didn’t even see them,” she recalls. “All I saw was the skeleton. It got me really fired up; these (remains) were the people who made the artifacts. I was absolutely hooked.”

After graduating from Laurier, Gruspier went on to earn a master’s degree in palaeopathology and funerary archaeology, a PhD in physical anthropology, and a law degree. As a recognized expert on bones, she works with the Ontario Coroner’s Office to examine bones found at construction sites or by mushroom hunters. Sometimes they are animal bones; sometimes they are the remains of native people. Sometimes they are the remains of murdered people.

Gruspier has also become an expert on genocide. She has worked in Kosovo, where she helped dig up human remains and undertook anthropological examinations for identification purposes. She has exhumed and analyzed bodies in East Timor for the United Nations. And she has been to Cambodia, surveying possible sites of mass graves for potential exhumation and even interviewing the people who did the killing.

She has been awarded the Canadian Peacekeeping Service Medal and the NATO Medal for her work in Kosovo.
 

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  • #195
No, Matou, I'm not writing a book (but someone should). We're all just very hungry for new information, new clues, new data, etc. "New" means new to us.

You were in a privelaged position to see those images. How did you know Gruspier? What was the context of her showing you those slides?

I will post a more detailed bio of her. She's had a very accomplished career.

I knew her from University (U of T). I can't really say too much more other than yes, she is an amazing lady.
 
  • #196
In post 223, I shouldn't have said narrowed the opportunity in 3). I meant provided more of an opportunity.
 
  • #197
The reported trip to the store by Christine 3 October 1984.

We know the timeline - stepped off the bus about 3:50 pm. Mother and brother initially report arriving home 4:10 pm.

We know the distance - 700+ metres, straight down the street (south) from the Jessop home.

We know some circumstances - C's bike is found by family in it's usual spot but lying on it's side with some minor damage. C's book bag is inside as well as the mail from that day. The recorder she received at school that day is not in the home, but this is unlikely to have been known to the family yet.

C was to make her daily trip on her bike to the store to meet her friend after school. They always met at the store first, according to friends testimony years later, with their cabbage patch dolls, made their purchase and then went to the park. C's friend phoned the Jessop home that day knowing when C usually arrived home, did not receive an answer and went to the store to meet up with her. The friend did not see C.

The store owner testified she came in after 4:00 pm that day.

I have never been able to make the above work and according to Dedpanman, they can't either. Another poster on another forum reported not being able to either.

<Mod Snip>
My question has always been - why was everyone so stuck on C made the trip to the store that afternoon from the moment it was realized she was missing? Was it an assumption because that is what she always did? Why was an alternative scenario never applied? Why has there never been an alternative scenario since from LE when they have to have to same difficulty with the timeline and the witness testimony - some of which was recanted?

I tend to get the feeling someone was at the Jessop home on 3 October insisting she went to the store and it became fact from that angle. That is jmo.

Christine was front page news in the Star on 5 October 1984 - less than 36 hours after she was missing (it's more like 28 hours considering they go to print about 11:00 pm each night). The article states she was last seen at the store buying gum. Another 36 hours went by and a woman phoned LE at 1:00 am Friday night to report seeing a child struggling in a vehicle on 3 October at 4:05 pm. The child was assumed to be Christine.

Hopefully we won't get bogged down on this point - but if someone is able to make everything fit into the timeline, it would be great to hear it. From experience, dissecting only one part of the trip does not seem to the progress the discussion - one has to consider all that was known and reported to reach a personal conclusion.
 
  • #198
Okay, I just took some Tylenol. Let's deal with the timeline(s).

Now, I'd prefer to take a little bit of a backseat here, and would love for others to jump in and tackle this puzzle. I'll chime in to present key points, etc. If no one runs with this, then I guess we can present our own thinking.

I submit these two images to help, or to get people thinking. One is a view to the park from the corner store - because one has to deal with this issue: If C went to the store and indeed bought gum, why did she not go to the park? And reminder - Chipman went to the park and never saw Christine at any point. The park is seconds from the store.

Really, speaking from experience, one must work out TWO TIMELINES.

One timeline with C riding her bike - and the timeline must end with her back at her house with the bike before 4:10 with enough time to get abducted before Janet and Ken get home.

And a second timeline with C travelling on foot (having left her bike at home for some reason (and try to come up with a good reason why she would not have taken it - sorry - personal bias slipping in.)

In the Google Earth diagram, the red line represents C's journey to the store. The purple line represents an imagined journey to the park.
The yellow line represents an imagined journey back home.

Good luck!
 

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  • #199
WPS became the son after speaking to Detective Ray Zarb of Toronto Police Cold Case Squad. Whether or not either knew Bob was incarcerated is unknown to me.

WPS had reason to know Bob had not been around for three weeks by way of association on the Queensville Volunteer Fire Department. Someone, if not all members of the fire department had to know Bob would not be available should a call come in.

Christine's friend called between 3:50 and 4:00 pm with no response.

WPS was born 1960 - he was older than Ken and the family friends that had been molesting Christine.

Again, would love to advertise coordinates, but cannot.

Given the timelines for the trip to the store, do you think Christine went to the store that day?
 
  • #200
Woodland - do you think you could list all the facts and corresponding times in regards to Christine's movements after she got home? Maybe start with the bus dropping her off? Pretty-please?
 
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