CANADA Canada - Christine Jessop, 9, Queensville, Ont, 3 Oct 1984 - #1

[orora]

Re the frozen maggots. Since the iceman's days and the body farm, they seem to have ways of determining if freezing unthawing is a part of any death. It sounds as if it may be possible but the exact climate and temperature on the exact day at the exact location is vital. Temperature records from the day of abduction on may be enough to make that determination. I've heard stories about similar but seldom frozen maggots at least not anywhere near the bodies surface. That suggests rapid almost flash freezing.

It is a pretty complicated scenario that is being put forth here and way too detailed for most of us to catch on to all the points. Not much else I can say about most but I did notice a few standout points namely that fbi profile. Usually the fbi are pretty careful and especially so when they may be called to back it up. Something fishy went on with a lot of things here imo.

Freezing, torture, body mutilation, conflicting reports, a false conviction, for what motive? The sex perverts usually don't go that far or have that deep of a tool bag. A first timer seems way out of line. That fbi profile does not fit anything whatsover imo. In hindsight, it is just another point that should go into making a profile. Who had the ear of the fbi to get them to produce this profile for them? The actions of the local Police seem to match that same sort of thing start to finish. Did they possibly want to frame the original suspect for some other reason besides actually thinking him guilty?

Does that new suspect of yours have some special connections? Did he or his family know the Jessop family? Is your suspect of the same last name as the previous owner missing from the property title?

If so suggestions-
FOI report for property title? Past owners immediately after missing name would have sales reciept, copy of tittle? Bank records who they purchased property from?

Go get his dna or that of a close bio family member. Follow to barber shop, find discarded cigarrette, cup or whatever. Take it to a private lab. Have the lab compare the profiles and produce a report. I know its not that easy but what else can you do? Carry on and eventually get sued or go get the evidence? Write a book?

All the best with it..

 

[Woodland]

Thank-you for that aerial shot Dedpanman. The distance between where Debbie and Christine were found is about 9 kms. Same side of the road, same distance from the corner and forgot to mention both were found deep into the wooded areas. Both locations have/had a path running through the property to reach the site.

Debbie was in a shallow grave and the son of the property owner noticed her while walking the property when she became partially uncovered.

 

[Dedpanman]

Here's some information about the Debbie Silverman case to bring our readers up to speed:

The body of Debbie Silverman, 21, was discovered in a shallow grave near the Village of Sunderland off Highway 12 . She was found exactly three months to the day after she had been abducted from her apartment building hallway in Toronto, Aug. 12, 1978. Her murder is a quarter of a century old, but it's a case the Ontario Provincial Police has never closed. Investigators continue to follow up any information that comes forward.

Debbie Silverman was beautiful, outgoing, vivacious, and eager to grab onto everything life had to offer. She had a good job, lots of friends, and a nearly new maroon Cordoba. She'd gone into debt to buy the car, but felt it was worth every penny. Life was good. Debbie looked forward to a future that was full of promise and hope. And then she was gone.

Debbie Silverman lived with her mother at 4854 Bathurst St. in Toronto. On the evening of Friday, Aug. 11, 1978, Debbie went on a double date in downtown Toronto with friends from work, returning to one of the friend's homes at approximately 2 a.m. Between 4 a.m. and 4:30 a.m. on Saturday, Aug. 12, she left that residence alone and headed home in her car, arriving at her apartment building, police believe, at approximately 5 a.m. She parked her vehicle in the apartment lot and entered the building through a side entrance that opened into a narrow hallway leading to the main lobby. Her purse, lace trimmed panties and a broken gold necklace were found inside the back door.

Toronto Police conducted an extensive investigation into her abduction. Buildings were searched, neighbours canvassed, and reservoirs dredged. Every tip was considered vital, and followed up.

On Sunday Novermber 12th, 1978 her body was found in a lot on a farm at an intersection of Highway 7 at Durham Regional Road 13 in the Brock Township about 42 miles east of York (see photos a few posts previous to this). Her hands were tied behind her back with the sleeves of her blue and white shirt and her black halter top was around her neck. Her brassiere was still on but she had no shoes or underwear on.

When her body was discovered north of Toronto, the investigation into the abduction of Debbie Silverman quickly turned into a hunt for her killer. Because her body was found in the jurisdiction of the Ontario Provincial Police, the OPP took the lead with the assistance of neighbouring police forces. Efforts were re-doubled, but to this day her death remains a mystery. The OPP, like her family, has no intention of forgetting Debbie, or of resting until the person or persons who ended her life are brought to justice. Modern technology and new leads hold the promise that that may yet happen.

Woodland - you feel there might be a connection between this case and Christine Jessop? If so, is there a connection other than geography? If the killer of C.J. was in his early twenties (but maybe he wasn't) in 1984, then he would have been even younger to be involved with Silverman in 1978.

 

[Dedpanman]

Photographs of Debbie Silverman.

 

[Dedpanman]

Agreed, but let me be "devil's advocate" a little bit. Granted, there are some basic similarities... but there are a lot of differences, too. The victims are different: C is a little girl. D is a mature woman. C lived in a small hamlet, D lived in the big city...

I'm not discounting D, but I'm suggesting we look for more patterns. Connections. Modus Operandi, etc. More links between the crimes.

Do you know how Silverman was killed? I didn't find that detail.

 

[Woodland]

The dna was of interest though. That was a lot of samples to test back in the day. I thought I read there was a problem with comparison or needing more dna for additional testing now? Doesn't seem to be the case from that article.

_______________

Exactly orora, far too many samples to test then - and it's very misleading for another reason.

Det-Sgt Neale Tweedy (now retired as Superintendant) took over this case in March 1995. The task force disbanded in March 1998. From an in-depth Globe and Mail article, he set himself and his task force up in a rented space and entered every bit of info from previous investigations into a new program that tracks investigations.

From there they decided who they wanted to get voluntary DNA samples from for profile comparison. They could not have started actual testing much before the end of 1995. The process then was long, arduous and expensive.

What Tweedy did not make clear (rather withheld) is - by September 1997 no lab in Canada could perform a comparible DNA profile with the one he had. In fact labs began changing over their process early in 1997. The old equipment was tossed and the new was in. Now you have apples and oranges for comparison. Not doable.

You could have a DNA profile from the right guy, but what could not be done is a comparison to the one and only DNA profile they had from Christine's underwear. Why? The markers were different. Most people don't know that.

So at best Tweedy and his task force had 18 months to be able to obtain DNA profiles that could be compared - and only from those that gave a voluntary sample. Like the guy stepped forward.

Tweedy was right, imo, to advocate for a National DNA Database for Canada as a crime fighting tool. What he is saying in his testimony though is, he could find Christine's killer with it. No way.

The databank was opertional by June 2000. Only profiles from the newer testing method can be entered into it - according to the RCMP.

According to public documents, there were no samples left of the semen collected for this case after obtaining the 1995 profile. There was a hearing to decide which way to go - use the last of it or wait. They used the last of it.

 

[Dedpanman]

Just a thought I had...

Wouldn't it be great if THE FIFTH ESTATE were to do an update on the Christine Jessop case? They did numerous episodes on the topic back in the day - there was one episode that won some big awards...

They have all their old footage, the old interviews, etc.

Imagine if they brought their clout to this? What could they unearth if they started back at ground zero (the abduction of Christine without all the Morin stuff)? Where would it lead them? What truths about the state of the DNA evidence could they bring to the public light? Maybe they could shake a new suspect loose?

For those readers who are not familiar with THE FIFTH ESTATE, it's like the Canadian equivalent of FRONTLINE.

If anyone wants to suggest this idea to them, here's the link to their contact page:

http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/content/contact/

 

[Woodland]

This is from "Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs" Issue 44 - Evidence - I post it here to provide context for those of you who don't know what happened after GPM was cleared in 1995 by the DNA evidence.

OTTAWA, Thursday, November 26, 1998

Detective Sergeant Neale Tweedy, Toronto Police Service, Canadian Police Association

Evidence revealed that on October 3, 1984, Christine Jessop was abducted from the small town of Queensville, driven 30 miles from her home, where, in the seclusion of a remote wooded area, she was brutally raped. During the attack on this child, who weighed a mere 40 pounds, she was prodded with the blade of a knife and superficially injured; her screams and her fears satisfying the demented sexual and emotional needs of her killer.

_____________________________

The above is another part of Tweedy's testimony I don't much care for. He doesn't know Christine was driven directly to the place where her remains were found when she was abducted. No one knows that. He has no way of knowing if she was taken there alive or not.

He's saying the killer redressed her there. He's saying the killer decided not to use the trailer he could see from where her remains were found. He's saying the killer had all the knives he needed to do what was done - and plenty of daylight to use them in. And what did the killer hit her in the nose with that caused a fracture to radiate into her skull? His hand? A rock or a board previous investigators didn't find?

Tweedy brags he spect 2.2 million bucks in three years running this task force. We didn't get much in the way of results. Is that why no one will spend time investigating this again? I think most of the 2.2 mil went for salaries, benefits, vehicles, rent, utilities, computers and some DNA tests. No where near 325 though.

Very much my strong opinion.

 

[orora]

Ahh got it. Canadian specific official law enforcement dna testing. Not quite the same as what I thought.

A private qualified lab can test any markers you want tested. The official dna profiles are just a specific subset of the entire human genome.

DNA profiling - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

DNA profiling (also called DNA testing, DNA typing, or genetic fingerprinting) is a technique employed by forensic scientists to assist in the identification of individuals by their respective DNA profiles. DNA profiles are encrypted sets of numbers that reflect a person's DNA makeup, which can also be used as the person's identifier. DNA profiling should not be confused with full genome sequencing.[1] It is used in, for example, parental testing and criminal investigation.

Individual markers can be chosen for testing. (if you know what they are)
http://www.kknfa.org/howmanymarkers.htm

 

[Woodland]

Seems you might be able to talk turkey with The Fifth Estate Dedpanman?

 

[Woodland]

This is from "Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs" Issue 44 - Evidence - I post it here to provide context for those of you who don't know what happened after GPM was cleared in 1995 by the DNA evidence.

OTTAWA, Thursday, November 26, 1998

Detective Sergeant Neale Tweedy, Toronto Police Service, Canadian Police Association

When he completed the rape on Christine, evidence suggests he raped her again. During the attack Christine was punched in the face with such ferocity that her nose was severely fractured. Neighbours in two distant farmhouses awoke in the dark and heard her screams, heard her cries for help, but dismissed it and talked themselves out of calling the police. When the killer was tired of Christine, evidence revealed he stabbed her about the front and the back of her tiny body. He then slashed her throat with such force that she was nearly decapitated.

____________

Here's another bit of Tweedy's bs I need to point out - Neighbours in two distant farmhouses did not, repeat did not, hear her.

After Christine was found (3 months after her disappearance), a 72 year-old woman that lived on the north side of Concession 4 ran for the cameras before running to LE to say she heard screams on the night of 3 October 1984. She was dismissed by the crown attorneys and never, ever, ever invited to testify to what she said she heard.

An investigation showed no way did she hear this on 3 October with the info she gave and no one could recreate hearing screams from that distance. The KR dedicates a few pages to this for anyone interested. After much discussion another neighbor decided he may have heard something that night.

So here's Tweedy testifying to something that was never proven or testified to for a jury's consideration.

I get testifying for this good cause and using this case as a good reason to have a DNA databank, but I don't get a cop using bs. Why not say things one knows are true? Why not just give an overview? Those listening to Tweedy's testimony had no knowledge that the profile Tweedy possessed had became redundant one year before this testimony. And I doubt Tweedy saw it coming that this testimony would become available on the internet.

So what was the motive behind this?

 

[orora]

What was the motive for every agency involved to be lying and violating procedure?

Something to do with the intended progression of bill c3 or its intended future deriviants? Something to do with an unknown mutual interest of both the Canadian authorities and the FBI.? What was Douglas's "other interest" for him just being in the neighborhood by the way? What was the end result of any law changes being requested or promoted? Did anything significant happen or come out of all this? How big or far up in ranks did the other poi mentioned make it.

 

[Woodland]

Douglas and his FBI profile report were out by 1995. Everything to do with that is over and can never be changed. It is what it is. Was another FBI profiler called in later? Don't know - it's not public info.

I believe there were agendas - opportunity often dictates that. But the levels were not all that high. Just people being people, taking what they can knowing consequences were minimal, especially with info now buried, forgotten, blurred by time, mixed up etc.

To me what matters now is, leave the past behind and get on with the only thing left for a possible conviction - DNA.

My info is strictly to engage people, remind them of what happened and inform with facts. The info has been presented in a different fashion in other places - it doesn't seem to matter what order it's presented in - separating the two phases gets in the way and has unfortunately brought things to a halt. I hope like heck that won't happen here.

 

[Dedpanman]

You also wrote: "Imo, and I'm trying to get there, the case was likely lost forever by 1995. People will always see the case as stuck in 1995."

I couldn't agree more. Very well put.

 

[Dedpanman]

We are drifting away from the crime scene discussion now into other areas, and that's fine, but I want to pull us back just for one moment, because there's an interesting detail we didn't cover and I'd like to put it out there in the thread for readers.

This is just another example of how much... conflicting facts, details, information, etc. are involved in this case.

BTW, we didn't really discuss the first autopsy so much (this is the one conducted by John Hillsdon Smith on Jan. 2, 1985) because in my opinion (and others) there were so many mistakes made, that to describe it as "botched" would not be unfair.

But...

From pg 67 of Redrum - which deals the aftermath of the autopsy - a few points are made that I want to get into the thread:

- the blue zippered sweater knitted by Christine's grandmother was unaccounted for (and was never found)

- the Jessops had no recollection of Christine ever owning a grey turtleneck sweater like the one in which she had been found

These two "facts" are potentially, highly significant as they go to support your theory, Woodland, that C was likely held for some time elsewhere, and may have been killed elsewhere, and then her body was transfered to the Sunderland field at some point in the late fall - maybe November - perhaps even as late as December - given the frozen maggots found on the body on Dec. 31.

 

[Dedpanman]

I wonder, Woodland, do you think we have enough information to sketch out an accurate (or relatively accurate) diagram of the body dump site with the following labelled with approximated distances?

-the “sheltered area” in the trees where C was found
-the location of the Cull’s trailer
-the shape and twist of the path
-the bench on “the hill”

I’m wondering if a diagram could help with the discussion of these questions:

Is it likely that Christine’s body had been there from October to December?
Is it possible that both Fred Patterson and James Cull could have gone to the spot during those months and missed seeing the body there?

I tried this exercise once before using the information from both Makin’s book and the Kaufman Report, but there were too many unknown variables to settle on a diagram that was useful. Maybe you have an old newspaper article that has a diagram - or something like a diagram?

In my mind, what’s critical to this analysis - is the distance from the body to the Cull’s trailer. The trailer is where Fred Patterson would have gone – to check on it. The trailer is where James Cull went in early December (and found it broken into). Could these visits to the trailer have happened - and C’s body not been noticed?

What do you think? Is a diagram possible?

 

[Woodland]

The hearing on using the last of the samples - the first reference I have found is RR - page 577. It's not as detailed as other on-line sources which I will look up.

The appeal of the murder conviction gets underway in August 1994. (Note on page 576 there is a typo in the year which states 1995 but from page 575 the time frame is clearly 1994). GPM was a free man by January 1995.

Just before the appeal gets into full swing, a hearing is held first to decide if another attempt at a DNA profile from Christine's underwear is feasible. Both sides want it.

Page 577 - The defence still had some concern about using up the precious underwear sample, but gave the go-ahead. Bob Jessop summed it up with a typically pithy metaphor. "It's like going fishing and you're down to your last worm" he said. "Do you use it or not? I would".

The decision to go ahead was made on 28 Octoer 1994.

The detail about scientists suggesting holding off on the test is not in RR. The technology was racing along and better tests were on the way, but not available at that time. The technology on the way was STR - short tandem repeats - the ability to copy with absolute exactness the most minute sample so as to never lose the ability to test and produce a DNA profile.

 

[Woodland]

Agree on the clothing. I tried pointing out the same thing in my theory to LE but .....

On the night of 3 October 1984 a search dog was brought in. The handler was not LE. He used a blue sweater from the house to give his dog Christine's scent. Not sure what happened to it but have always wondered if it was the same sweater. It's in RR somewhere, will keep my eye out for it.

Here's a tidbit I found in RR while searching for the hearing date - page 448. It's during the 1992 second trial and pathologist Hillsdon Smith is on the stand, taking his lumps for his 'botched' autopsy on 2 January 1985.

"The other (talking of injuries he missed) was that the lower breastbone was missing - or half of it's structure. I never saw that during the autopsy. I can't explain how that injury was sustained. I cannot tell whether it was cut or sawed."



The KR and newspaper accounts state the pathologists from the second autopsy disagreed on when and how some of the injuries were sustained, but have never seen a detailed account of which injuries they meant. Frustrating in that such an account would help with could these injuries have happened at the body site. If a saw could have been used then I discount this happening at the body site. The privacy of a barn seems more plausible to me.

 

[Dedpanman]

Regarding the breastbone in the second autopsy:

a “phenomenal injury” – half the breastbone was missing, sheared off in a straight, vertical line – suggests a larger weapon – perhaps a hunting knife

- “an attempt to open up the chest”

 

[Woodland]

Will have a scanned copy of the historic and altered property docs after 5:00 pm today.