CANADA Canada - Christine Jessop, 9, Queensville, Ont, 3 Oct 1984 - #1

[Chorley8]

That's why I posted that info. Better to close that loop instead of leaving it open-ended. Otherwise, conspiracy can germinate.

1. Not sure what loop is closed by the forecloseure if we don't know why Montessori (well whoever was involved with the school plan that is ) would think it appropriate to put a new school on the site of a murdered girls's family home. We don't know who Chistine's killer is/are and we don't know who had access to her house apart from the obvious, family. Conspiracy is a big (misleading) word for us to use for a broached hypothesis that someone might want to expunge evidence or association.

2. Correct, brother's vision and finding the bones makes no sense that is a huge point. LE didn't simply miss a few stray bones there was a man created pile as I understand it with LE unlikely to be the creator of that pile. Yes someone might have put the idea in brother's head. Now if he had had this uneasy feeling or vision and it was simply a matter of LE missing someone that would be one thing but the combination makes it very odd as one sleuther put it here astronomically odd. What direction does that lead us in?

3. Thanks for those articles very interesting that Christine was also to receive a new Bible at the United Church and she had just received her recorder..There would be a list of children especially in the second case it wouldn't only be a class list. Those very close to the victim might actually be able to feel jealousy over these new belongings if it fit with any early jealousy patterns and if she was talking about it which she was likely to have been.

I am not pointing towards her family but someone who knew them - I would be interested in the church membership especially anyone involved in making up the lists for Bibles. Small town someone could have been in charge of Bibles and recorders.

4. Possibility that someone tilted towards the home as the Mont. sight because they wanted to feel "close" to Christine and wanted access to the house she had lived her life in.

 

[dotr]

According to this blog, (which begins with a curious nightmare, repressed memory?)this woman (as a child) along with many others, helped search for CM's body..
http://tracylee-underneathitall.blogspot.ca/2008/09/walrus-and-christine-jessop.html

 

[dotr]

In this 1985 news article, the Father of Christine, says his imprisonment probably had something to do with CJ's "disappearance",murder.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...WYwxAAAAIBAJ&sjid=pqUFAAAAIBAJ&pg=5009,830771

 

[dotr]

Vid. of house, unusual selling points...
http://www.callpaulnow.ca/Queensville-East-Gwillimbury-Real-Estate-Listings-Homes-Houses.html

 

[Chorley8]

According to this blog, (which begins with a curious nightmare, repressed memory?)this woman along with many others, helped search for CM's body as a child.
http://tracylee-underneathitall.blogspot.ca/2008/09/walrus-and-christine-jessop.html

Thanks for this dotr she notes that her young relative died soon before and was buried in the cemetery.

From other accounts we know that Christine was not afraid of the cemetery and used to tend the grave of a young child buried there. Not unlikely to be Tommy? Yet this blogger doesn't seem aware of that possible connection, interesting.

The "Walrus" sharp sticks of wood element not sure if it would be in line with any of the injuries.

 

[Chorley8]

Vid. of house, unusual selling points...
http://www.callpaulnow.ca/Queensville-East-Gwillimbury-Real-Estate-Listings-Homes-Houses.html

I am a bit dumbstruck at the idea of selling property by saying famous residents are GP Morin and Christine Jessop (and ok John Candy) and the video shows the cemetery, Montessori/Jessop home, (and ok the church).

 

[DueSouth]

Hi all,

I'm a longtime lurker impressed by all the great work everyone is doing on this case. Well done.

On the issue of Mr. Jessop's incarceration, and what role it may play in this case, I have the following to add.

I'm assuming based on what I have seen of him in the media, that Bob Jessop was a first time offender; even though he got a rather harsh sentence for a fraud conviction.

If I am right, and he has no past history, he probably was not used to hanging around criminals or a jail environment. Could he possibly have said too much to another inmate?

Out of loneliness or a strategy of fitting in, maybe he spilled details of his personal life to someone due to be released shortly, someone who was pretending to be trustworthy. If he had a conversation in the jail mess hall or a recreation area, perhaps details of his life; i.e. hometown, family, etc. were overheard by a third party who did the unthinkable with them.

If I were an investigator at the time, I would have at least asked some cursory questions about his brief incarceration. Maybe it was done, though.

My apologies if this has been brought up already.

 

[DueSouth]

I am a bit dumbstruck at the idea of selling property by saying famous residents are GP Morin and Christine Jessop (and ok John Candy) and the video shows the cemetery, Montessori/Jessop home, (and ok the church).

I agree, this is rather odd.

 

[Woodland]

Welcome Darkblue - that is a very good idea regarding another inmate. Have been thinking about it but find I'm stumbling on the timing - or luck of the timing.

With the bike at home, one scenario would be he watched some of the family movement from the cemetery and made his move. But would Christine have put up a struggle with a stranger even if he said he was taking her to her dad?

What are your thoughts on the site in Sunderland?

 

[Chorley8]

Probably relevant to say that Christine's brother (assuming it is really him) posted last couple of days on another well-known site saying Christine was not raped but that he her brother was assaulted and made to simulate sex acts by a young offender. Interesting.

 

[DueSouth]

Good for you, Chorley8. I noticed that on the other site, too.

Woodland, you asked me, I think, about the Sunderland site.

First off, I am going to contradict myself about the "other inmate" theory. It is just a theory, plausible but not my favourite. :fence: Just something I thought of. Personally, I do think it is someone who was "free" and around for a while, but you never know.

I agree that the Sunderland site should be the point of focus, more than the Queensville eyewitness testimony. There is far more solid evidence available. Someone else, I believe it was Dedpanman, put it succinctly. All the "knowns" about the case are there.

As well, I do believe that someone with a connection to that plot of land was involved. Considering all the signs of habitation on the land (trailer, outhouse, car(!)), I find it hard to believe that someone would pick that spot, and possibly return to it several times, if they were not confident that it would be unoccupied.

 

[DueSouth]

I remember using a textbook called "Manufacturing Guilt, Wrongful Convictions in Canada", by Barrie Anderson and Dawn Anderson, during a university criminology course.

http://www.fernwoodpublishing.ca/Manufacturing-Guilt-2nd-edition-Barrie-Anderson-Dawn-Anderson/

It was an excellent book. Yes, it was a sociological treatment of wrongful convictions, and I am referring to the chapter on Guy Paul Morin.

What was interesting to me is the "refresher" information that points in the direction that the case should have gone all along. Away from Morin and on to other suspects, etc. I have also read the first version of Redrum the Innocent, but this book was concise in detailing much of the information the police missed/ignored; suitable for someone who needs a quick catch-up on the case.

If anyone gets a chance, have a look at it. I no longer have a copy, unfortunately.

There is one item that really stood out for me. There was a witness sighting of a suspicious male on the 4th Concession of Brock, sometime around the period between the abduction and the discovery of Christine's body. I cannot remember the details and I don't want to make an unverifiable quote, but it would make an interesting discussion point. I don't recall this incident in Redrum.
I've tried to find an online copy of the book but have been unsuccessful. My public library website is down at this writing.

 

[Dedpanman]

If Towserdog makes a return appearance there, could someone ask him about Christine's Cabbage Patch doll, please? See if he can clarify:

1. Did Christine have just the one doll?
2. Where was the doll found?
3. Is that the doll she was buried with?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Dedpanman]

I'm assuming based on what I have seen of him in the media, that Bob Jessop was a first time offender; even though he got a rather harsh sentence for a fraud conviction.

***************

Could he possibly have said too much to another inmate?

I think that this is a very viable theory, but it seems that York police did explore this avenue during the investigation. Of course, a good potential suspect could have slipped through the cracks...

From RR first edition:

“About the only distraction available to Bob was composing lists. The task at least made him feel he was doing something positive. He compiled a list of people he knew who owned cars of certain colours which interested the police. He also wrote down the names of anyone he had ever spoken to in jail…” Pg. 48

I’ve come across other, better, references to this aspect of the York investigation but I can’t find the sources at the moment. Maybe I read about it in the KR... or, the Globe and Mail... Not sure.

 

[Dedpanman]

There is one item that really stood out for me. There was a witness sighting of a suspicious male on the 4th Concession of Brock, sometime around the period between the abduction and the discovery of Christine's body. I cannot remember the details and I don't want to make an unverifiable quote, but it would make an interesting discussion point. I don't recall this incident in Redrum.

I believe you’re referring to the experience of Robert Billings – and if so, it is detailed in RR.

Billings was an elderly man who delivered the Toronto Star newspaper to houses and farms during the early hours of the morning. He would drive down the Fourth Concession, typically passing the body dump site around 4:00 am.

Billings recalled one dark morning in early October when his headlight beams illuminated a figure near the tractor path. When he turned around to investigate - the man had disappeared – and was apparently hiding somewhere in the bushes.

Billings soon came upon a battered white pickup truck parked on the side of the road. He got out of his vehicle to see if it was someone needing help, but the truck was empty. In the back of the truck Billings reported finding a shovel, an axe, and a pick. Billings called out for the individual in the darkness but got no reply. He then got a little creeped-out and left.

Is this a genuine experience, or someone injecting himself into the drama by creating or embellishing a spooky story?

Was this the killer lurking around, or someone stealing trees…?

Or a complete figment of the imagination?

 

[jobo]

All I can say is that I have been on that road....and didn't want to get out of my vehicle, for some reason. I wasn't feeling that way when I went and drove that road, but when I stopped at the site, I just couldn't get out. Mixed emotions.
Woodland, am I recalling correctly that you also have been there? I can't remember if you said how you felt.

 

[Woodland]

Thank-you for that question jobo - have not been asked before or even really thought about what I felt, or not.

I have to admit, I took a somewhat clinical approach. I went to Sunderland for the sole purpose of surveying the lay of the land including the site where Debbie Silverman was found and where Robert Brown disappeared from north of these sites - three times. It's difficult to go very far with any sleuthing without knowing what the layout is. I also visited the local library and unfortunately each time the local archives were closed.

I did not walk the property where Christine was found due to the heavy gate, instead I walked the roadway in both directions. It's likely very different anyway due to a house now on the property.

I did walk the property where Debbie was found - I admit disrespecting the more flimsy gate and only ventured in 75 feet or so. I was apprehensive after that distance, but not sure why - guilt at walking a property I did not have permission to be on or fear of the unknown in a wooded area? Don't know. I also walked the wooded area across from the site Debbie was found on and was less apprehensive, but the deeper I got away from the road the more I looked around and always made sure I had some sort of escape route to my vehicle - left clearly visible on Concession 3. I heard some dogs in the distance!

Since Robert Brown was never found, driving around Willfrid and Pefferlaw was not an issue. I visited the Town Hall in Canfield to find the tax records I would have liked to see missing.

Queensville is peaceful imo. Traffic and people to a certain degree but far from crowded.

 

[Woodland]

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/opinion/westview/a-little-spit-could-catch-a-killer-134168263.html

"A decade ago the Canadian Police Association banded with the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police and unsuccessfully pushed to have DNA samples taken from criminals in ways parallel to the long-accepted practice of taking fingerprints.

They pointed to the 1984 case of Christine Jessop. Raped and murdered, the smiley nine-year-old died with a heart full of fear before her body was discarded in some bush 50 kilometres from her southern Ontario home. Guy Paul Morin was arrested, convicted and went to jail. Unquestioned DNA later proved him innocent.

Today, the real killer's DNA is floating around in the national data bank waiting for a match. And it's all but incomprehensible that someone who could commit such a heinous crime has not had some criminal contact with authorities and as such, his DNA could and should be available for automatic computer comparison.

But that's not the way it is. Only certain offences are eligible for DNA seizure and they are accompanied with some pretty restrictive guidelines. So now, almost 30 years into the Jessop investigation, the once highly publicized file has more than 27,000 suspects to separately consider. And who knows, her killer may still be alive and still doing what his sickness demands. Maybe he's had a lot of police contact but nothing that has allowed for the taking of his DNA.

DNA is the brand new car that legislation delivered without wheels. The flimsy, sky-is-falling fears of those far removed from any killing field paralyzed the technology that could otherwise rocket an investigation forward.

When serial killers are at play, apprehension translates to prevention and isn't that what all sides want?"

Have had correspondence with Robert Marshall - ex cop (retired) and author of the article quoted.

My question was, could he clarify or narrow down his source that DNA from Christine's crime scene is in the national databank and is he sure about that information.

He wanted me to clarify that I thought DNA may not be in the databank, so I did, including that this information was left out of the recent Fifth Estate episode and that twice Toronto Police Service has refused to answer a direct question on DNA for this case.

He came back with 'As you are no doubt aware, there are very good reasons why an agency would be reluctant to share everything regarding an open file.'

I can't wrap my head around that he printed, on behalf of Toronto Police Service, that DNA from this crime scene is in the databank, but TPS might be reluctant to release that info regarding an open case. It's hold back info after his article?

Gotta wonder how these guys manage to sleep at night.

 

[Woodland]

Here is a recap of the published info the DNA for this crime scene is in the Canadian National DNA Data Bank. Kindly note that there were things going on behind the scenes, beginning in 2003, that may or may not have played a role in this.

1 October 2004 - for the 20th anniversary of Christine's disappearance, KM publishes an article in the Globe and Mail, quoting Neale Tweedy, that DNA is now in the national databank. No press conference appears to have taken place. No other paper carried this information.

Late 2007 to early 2008 - Toronto Police Service refuses to verify or back-up that DNA for this case is in the national databank from a Freedom of Information request. TPS spends a lot of time and money doing so. TPS returns calls to the FOI office after 5:00 pm. TPS does not take calls during business hours from FOI on this request. TPS lets it slip that a foreign country is involved in this case so they cannot reveal the information already revealed.

2011 - Robert Marshall prints an article in the Winnipeg Free Press that DNA from this crime scene is in the databank, citing the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police as the source of info.

Sept 2012 - The Fifth Estate airs an update on this case with a camera shot of Det Sgt Steve Ryan hesitating then saying 'we have DNA'. A request for clarification that it is in the databank is ignored by TPS and the Fifth Estate.

Today - Robert Marshall advises I should be aware TPS may have a reason to be reluctant to share this already shared information.

With all due respect Mr Marshall - why would TPS have you print this info when they are reluctant to say it themselves?

 

[DueSouth]

I believe you’re referring to the experience of Robert Billings – and if so, it is detailed in RR.

Billings was an elderly man who delivered the Toronto Star newspaper to houses and farms during the early hours of the morning. He would drive down the Fourth Concession, typically passing the body dump site around 4:00 am.

Billings recalled one dark morning in early October when his headlight beams illuminated a figure near the tractor path. When he turned around to investigate - the man had disappeared – and was apparently hiding somewhere in the bushes.

Billings soon came upon a battered white pickup truck parked on the side of the road. He got out of his vehicle to see if it was someone needing help, but the truck was empty. In the back of the truck Billings reported finding a shovel, an axe, and a pick. Billings called out for the individual in the darkness but got no reply. He then got a little creeped-out and left.

Is this a genuine experience, or someone injecting himself into the drama by creating or embellishing a spooky story?

Was this the killer lurking around, or someone stealing trees…?

Or a complete figment of the imagination?

Hmmm...It may have been, although the pseudonym was different. The version I read had the witness and the person of interest staring right at each other. The story also had the unknown male driving a car.

I do not have the direct quote because I don't have the story on hand, but I do remember aspects in the version I read
that differ from this one.

This is another area where I agree strongly with many if not most of the posters here. I keep asking myself when I find a fact related to this case; "...did this really happen?".

There are unfortunately so many inaccuracies and fuzzy details that it is hard to separate fact from fiction.