Canada - Christine Jessop, 9, Queensville, Ont, 3 Oct 1984 - #2 *killer identified*

[Mistysues]

You should check your facts Mistysues - you have posted some misinformation.

Duplicate

 

[Mistysues]

You should check your facts Mistysues - you have posted some misinformation.

Where Woodland?

 

[Woodland]

Thanks Tadpole12 - better everyone can read it!

I can't make that link work from 'Pages of the Past' maybe you could send me a tip sometime!! Cheers!

 

[Mistysues]

The blue sweater, was just in the confusion of the first days. My mom and I both thought she would have been wearing the pink jacket as it wasn't with her stuff when we got home. When the jacket was found on the high hook, the cops set in with did she wear others, etc. That first night they were trying to break my mother, and me... They kapt thinking we had her hiding to get my dad out of jail. It was mass confusion. They jacket was found b4 she was. In the house somewhere or at our grandparents.....
But it had no role after she was found.

I thought the jacket was on a hook too high for her to reach by the front door.

 

[Mistysues]

Is anyone aware of any fountains or ponds at the cemetery in 1984?

 

[Mistysues]

University of Toronto Library seems to have Fifth Estate episodes going back as far as 1994... But, that's no help. Perhaps there's another university library out there with the program in their collection?

All librarys do interlibrary loans. You could have them send it to your closest library.

 

[Dedpanman]

"Christine only had one Cabbage Patch Doll. She never took it out of the house. She was buried with it. It was her confidant. Her best friend. And is with her still..."

Her "best friend" was a stuffed bunny named Thumper also the Cabbage Patch Doll was not buried with her. It was still in her room when the Star interviewed Mom.

The issue of the cabbage patch doll has been cleared up to everyone's satisfaction and has been verified by KJessop: it was found in her room after she disappeared. After Christine's remains were found, the doll was buried with her.

 

[Mistysues]

In Queensville today. It is exactly .7 of a km from the Jessop home to the Store.

 

[Mistysues]

Aso interesting behind the Jessop home the cemetery backs a huge drop off and there is a HUGE pond. will post pictures.

 

[Mistysues]

Dpman - in the other thread you had a picture of the Jessop home from 84. Can you repost?

 

[Mistysues]

The issue of the cabbage patch doll has been cleared up to everyone's satisfaction and has been verified by KJessop: it was found in her room after she disappeared. After Christine's remains were found, the doll was buried with her.

My point is does anyone else find it odd this kjessop doesn't know his sisters favorite toy.

 

[Dedpanman]

My point is does anyone else find it odd this kjessop doesn't know his sisters favorite toy.

I don't find it odd.

Why do you assume that the writer of the article (who dropped in to do a quick story) got every detail correct and did not take liberties with telling a good story...? Or didn’t misinterpret something that Janet said...?

You automatically assume the article is absolutely correct.

Why wouldn't you assume that KJessop was correct and the writer got it wrong?

I don't understand that.
Just be careful with your assumptions.

 

[Mistysues]

Good point. Thanks Dpman.

 

[Mistysues]

I don't find it odd.

Why do you assume that the writer of the article (who dropped in to do a quick story) got every detail correct and did not take liberties with telling a good story...? Or didn’t misinterpret something that Janet said...?

You automatically assume the article is absolutely correct.

Why wouldn't you assume that KJessop was correct and the writer got it wrong?

I don't understand that.
Just be careful with your assumptions.

Too many things don't make sense. Kjessop says Christine didn't play with dolls, mom says she does. Kjessop says Leslie bullied Christine and Christine would not have had made plans with her but pg 9 of Makins book says Christine called Leslie that afternoon and the Kaufman report says Leslie called Christine, which would make me assume they had phone records. Today I went to Queensville. Witnesses do not mention seeing Christine with her bike. I clocked the distance with my car and walked the route. Its .7 of a KM and its on a hill. If the bus dropped her @ 3:45 how did she get home and abducted before 4:10. That is 25 minutes to walk there and back plus talk to people drop mail off etc. Even if she did take her bike its doubtful she made it back and forth in the allotted time especially because she was going uphill with a bag of candy a recorder and a bike.

I'm 5'6" it took me 15 minutes to the store and 25 minutes to walk back. Obviously my stride is much longer.

Because of these inconsistencies I am having a hard time with Kjessops posts verified insider or not. And I possibly seem like a Jerk for bringing up these inconsistencies but they are there.

 

[Woodland]

There are inconsistencies from the verified insider Mistysues. Some are small, some are big, and they are growing in number. You are scratching the surface at the moment.

Debating the inconsistencies is the correct thing to do - even though it may get a little 'loud' at times. Some may recall there was a two week delay in the verification process, no one really wants to believe there might be a problem there.

Glad to see you have walked some of the walk.

 

[Dedpanman]

Too many things don't make sense. Kjessop says Christine didn't play with dolls, mom says she does. Kjessop says Leslie bullied Christine and Christine would not have had made plans with her but pg 9 of Makins book says Christine called Leslie that afternoon and the Kaufman report says Leslie called Christine, which would make me assume they had phone records. Today I went to Queensville. Witnesses do not mention seeing Christine with her bike. I clocked the distance with my car and walked the route. Its .7 of a KM and its on a hill. If the bus dropped her @ 3:45 how did she get home and abducted before 4:10. That is 25 minutes to walk there and back plus talk to people drop mail off etc. Even if she did take her bike its doubtful she made it back and forth in the allotted time especially because she was going uphill with a bag of candy a recorder and a bike.

I'm 5'6" it took me 15 minutes to the store and 25 minutes to walk back. Obviously my stride is much longer.

Because of these inconsistencies I am having a hard time with Kjessops posts verified insider or not. And I possibly seem like a Jerk for bringing up these inconsistencies but they are there.

Mistysues,

Hats off to you for checking out the actual geography of this story. One can only interpret words and written scenarios. It’s another thing entirely to see things yourself. I encourage others to do the same (if Queensville is a reasonable distance).

However – I caught you in another assumption. How can you assume that “they” had phone records unless it’s explicitly stated somewhere? Again: be careful. Please.

While in Queensville, I hope you stood at the foot of the old Jessop driveway where it meets Leslie Street and looked south to the intersection where the corner store used to be. I hope you stood there imagining that you were Christine Jessop, a 9-year-old girl, wanting to go there to get some gum. I hope you imagined that you had a bicycle, and thought about your options. Walk, or ride?

Why would you walk there when you had a working bicycle? One that you were allowed to ride there and had ridden there many times in the past? I wonder if you were hard-pressed to imagine a reason why you wouldn’t take your bike. Why would you walk, when you could be there within seconds on two wheels?

I have sifted through the various resources and found numerous examples (posted on thread 1) of both Christine and Leslie taking their bikes to the park. It was a well-established pattern.

The idea that Christine walked to the store (and back home) that day makes no sense. And KJessop is on record here as believing the same. She would have taken her bike.

You’ve added a bag of candy to your scenario. Where does that come from? The store owner claimed that Christine bought some gum. It’s debatable that she even had her recorder at this point. Personally, I believe her recorder was back at the house when she went to the store.

I don’t hold much faith in any of the eye witnesses who claim to have seen her around the intersection (outside the store) that day. I really don’t – for reasons so numerous (and previously posted) that I can’t be bothered to restate them.

I actually believe that “KJessop’s Theory of the Abduction” (post #240, this thread) is the best fit for the facts and actually cleans up a number of discrepancies in the so-called “official” version of what happened.

I always had problems with the idea that Christine went to the park to meet Leslie. Leslie claimed she went to the park around 4:00 pm (give or take) and Christine wasn’t there. It suggests that is where the abduction occurred – yet Christine’s bicycle was found at home. And in my mind she would have taken her bike – so the park abduction doesn’t fly with me (sorry, Mr. Mangano). Plus, the park is more visible and a more difficult place for an unobserved abduction. I can’t buy it.

When KJessop suggested here that Christine never went to the park that day to meet Leslie – that made sense to me. But where’s the proof? Here it is: Leslie claimed she and Christine had agreed to meet in the park to play with their Cabbage Patch dolls. But, Christine’s Cabbage Patch doll was found at home in her room after she was abducted. This strongly suggests she never took that doll out of the house because she never intended to go to the park to meet Leslie. It also strongly suggests that Christine was not abducted from the park – because if she was – why was the doll found at home? (Again, sorry, Mr. Mangano.)

And the issue of the recorder. Why was it even with Christine when she was abducted from her home? It never really made sense – until KJessop suggested that she took it with her because she believed she was leaving with someone who was going to take her to see her father (in jail). That works for me. It explains the presence of the recorder. It explains why the abduction was so fast and went completely unnoticed. Christine went willingly. Her abductor offered her something that she would not say no to.

Some might say, “Oh, but she was so excited to have her recorder because she just got it that day and wanted to take it everywhere.” Eh. Whatever.

We’re talking about a little girl who caught dew worms by herself, had her own chickens, pet frog and a dog. It seems like she was something of a tomboy. Equal parts “girly-girl” and “roll-up-her-sleeves-and-get-dirty”. There were two sides to her. Ken saw one, her mother another.

I bet her recorder was dropped with her school bag as soon as she went into the house after getting off the bus.

Some readers here might be thinking: “Hey, Dedpanman has become a real KJessop cheerleader”, but I wouldn’t agree with that. I just think his scenario is the best "fit" with the facts.

I’m not saying I believe 100% that KJessop’s suspect (JP) was the guy…
All of the evidence for that is circumstantial.

But, I do believe that the killer was someone Christine knew to some degree. He lurked somewhere in one of her spheres. (The Co-op?)

And what a brilliantly-evil scheme. This person presented her with an opportunity that turned off her brain’s capacity to sense danger.

“I’m on my way to go see your dad. You want to come?”

 

[Woodland]

Actually DPM, you have a few assumptions that I can't see the logic in - could you fill in some of the blanks?

- How do you know for sure JP and BJ were friends? How did a friend of BJ's escape scrutiny at the time and during a later investigation?

- If not JP, then the abductor didn't know where BJ was. So he couldn't say I will take you to see your dad. If the abductor didn't say that, why was CJ so excited to go with him?

- The abductor told CJ he would take her to see her dad, then she hopped on her bike to go to the store first?

- And the guy waited in the driveway for CJ to return?

- And no one saw CJ travel up and down Leslie St at that time?

- He knew or didn't know KJ was not on the bus? He fantasized about this abduction then waited in the driveway risking he may have to come back and do this on another day?

- Then he didn't know where to go, so just started driving hoping for the best?

The more one adds to the scenario, the more one has to account for. The more one has to account for, the more one has to assume certain and or numerous events.

How about she was taken in the 15 minute window of opportunity that existed most weekdays for three weeks prior to the abduction, that many people were aware of?

- Cabbage Patch doll still at home - check.
- No one saw her go to and from the store - check.
- Her recorder was within reach or still in her hand when she was approached during this window of opportunity - check.
- No one saw an abduction making the cemetery a viable route - check.

No unseen trips in public to account for with elaborate assumptions.

Jmo.

 

[Woodland]

Did KJ ever return to school? Wondering why the bus driver and the 2 teen girls never mentioned to KJ that they made a report to YRP about a blue car in the driveway that day.

Seems like something they would mention - trying to be helpful etc.

 

[Dedpanman]

Actually DPM, you have a few assumptions that I can't see the logic in - could you fill in some of the blanks?

I’ll do my best.

- How do you know for sure JP and BJ were friends? How did a friend of BJ's escape scrutiny at the time and during a later investigation?

I’m not sure why you’re asking me this. I’m going on information provided by our case insider – KJessop. Obviously, I can’t be sure that JP and Bob Jessop were friends. I’m not sure that KJessop said they were friends (I could be mistaken), maybe he did. I would have to comb back through his posts, but my impression is that BJ and JP were acquaintances. They knew each other because JP worked at the Co-op, and that’s where Bob and Christine went to get feed for the chickens. I’m confident you’ll correct me on this very fine point if I have erred.

- If not JP, then the abductor didn't know where BJ was. So he couldn't say I will take you to see your dad. If the abductor didn't say that, why was CJ so excited to go with him?

“If not JP, then the abductor didn't know where BJ was.” Ah, Woodland, that’s an assumption on your part. You can’t be sure of that. No one can. Even KJessop, in my opinion. Of course, I can’t be sure of the opposite... My personal belief is that Christine knew her abductor on some level because that makes the most sense to me. This was most likely not a kicking-and-screaming type abduction. It was quiet and probably victim-willing. That implies an abductor-victim relationship of some kind – even if it was a very tenuous one. This is the most likely scenario based on logic.

- The abductor told CJ he would take her to see her dad, then she hopped on her bike to go to the store first?

I don’t understand what you mean. In the “KJessop scenario” (post #240, currently page 10 of this thread), Christine bumps into her abductor on the way back from the store – not before.

- And the guy waited in the driveway for CJ to return?

Again, if you check the scenario, Christine encounters her abductor on the way back from the store – not before. An encounter right after she steps off the bus doesn’t make sense - for the very reason that she immediately went to the store.

- And no one saw CJ travel up and down Leslie St at that time?

Perhaps they did – but it just didn’t register, because seeing her pedalling down to the store was such a common sight. It happened almost daily. It was of no significance to anyone who happened to glance her way. Something that would be immediately forgotten if it even registered at all. If you look out a window and a bird flies by... does that bird linger in your mind beyond three seconds? After she disappears, though, and it’s a big deal, people are remembering seeing her all around the intersection – because they do have recent memories of seeing her. Memories are malleable and can be easily distorted and “re-written”. See the work of Elizabeth Loftus for more information on that.

The one witness who never deviated and seemed pretty solid, was the store owner who sold her the gum.

- He knew or didn't know KJ was not on the bus? He fantasized about this abduction then waited in the driveway risking he may have to come back and do this on another day?

I suspect that whoever the perpetrator was – the opportunity presented itself in a sudden, unexpected way. The killer realized that this was his lucky day. She was alone. He had a good method for getting her in his car... Done.

There are so many possibly variations on this scenario. He was driving on Leslie and saw Christine riding home from the store and the idea came into his head. She turned into the Jessop driveway – and so did he...

- Then he didn't know where to go, so just started driving hoping for the best?

Based on my readings, these types of killers don’t necessarily set out to kill. They think only as far as the sexual aspect of their fantasy. Then, once that’s done, the reality of the situation sets in... and they realized their victim can’t be let go.

The more one adds to the scenario, the more one has to account for. The more one has to account for, the more one has to assume certain and or numerous events.

Actually, I disagree. The KJessop scenario is a nice, neat package that deals with all the major puzzle pieces in a way that is logical. (At least to me.) We all know that not every puzzle piece will fit because not every puzzle piece belongs.

How about she was taken in the 15 minute window of opportunity that existed most weekdays for three weeks prior to the abduction, that many people were aware of?

I’m sorry. You’ll have to explain yourself a bit better here because I’m not following you. Maybe I’m just dense.

- Cabbage Patch doll still at home - check.
- No one saw her go to and from the store - check.
- Her recorder was within reach or still in her hand when she was approached during this window of opportunity - check.

Possibly... The recorder pouch had a wrist strap on it. But, check the KJessop scenario again. After encountering her abductor, and being offered an opportunity to go see her dad, she chooses to dash into the house and get said recorder. That makes sense.

- No one saw an abduction making the cemetery a viable route - check.

I don’t consider the cemetery a viable escape route anymore. I find that scenario a bit far-fetched now. (And I used to be a proponent of it.)

A crime can happen right in front of your nose – and so long as it doesn’t call attention to itself, you won’t notice it until (maybe) after the fact.

No unseen trips in public to account for with elaborate assumptions.

I don’t understand this point.

Jmo.

And just mine, also.

 

[Dedpanman]

Seems like something they would mention - trying to be helpful etc.

"Seems like something they would mention"...?
Isn't that a bit of a reach...?