Canada - Christine Jessop, 9, Queensville, Ont, 3 Oct 1984 - #2 *killer identified*

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  • #101
You all did good, I managed to clear up a few more of my own misconceptions tonite.

Yes, for me as well, orora, I'm just making my way again slowly through thread one and so much of the info is pure carp.

I had been wondering about the blue sweater and whether the co-op had been part of a franchise, associated with Lindsay. But KJ details that JP would have familiarity with the area.

I do have a few questions, so I will begin to compile.
 
  • #102
Lots of things to clarify yet but making tons of headway.. good to see.

Ok for what its worth I think I got it now, thanks. I end up with another question though.. ,

If I got this right, Christine's bus did drop her right at home at 3:45 at latest? Your bus Ken would have come by at 4:00 at latest? You and your mom arrived home at 4:10. If the pink jacket was the morning jacket, and it was not worn to the store, and it was found hung up too high, would that not place the perp there in the house with Christine before Christine went to the store?

Just trying to reconcile it all. Is there any possibility that the Horworth sighting of the blue car by the store with a girl seen struggling was of the same blue car as seen in the driveway from the bus? Could that car have given Christine a ride to the store for candy first before supposedly going off to the prison or for chicken feed or? ? Its in the right direction to the prison, the store owner claims he saw her near 4 pm, the Horwoods say the car they saw was coming from the direction of the store near 4:05 pm and the struggling was happening as the car was trying to turn north, left away from the direction of the prison.

I too believe the Horwood sighting to be significant if it can be placed into the circumstance. somehow? blue car, how many times? Three? Driveway, Store, Raveshoe near culls property?
 
  • #103
I was just told about this case so is it worth it to go back and read thread 1 or can I get sufficiently caught up with what is in this thread?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
  • #104
I believe you can get a pretty fair grasp just reading this thread and the links. Ken (Christine's brother) is clearing up a lot of what you would have to undo from part 1. I got a pretty good summarization of the main points and players from this link-
http://netk.net.au/Canada/Morin2.asp

In due course, in due time, I believe many of the unanswered questions from thread one will be re-examined here anyway in light new information and better clarification. Maybe Kenny and Dpm can schedule a convenient time but we can always leave our questions here in the meantime
 
  • #105
Lots of things to clarify yet but making tons of headway.. good to see.

Ok for what its worth I think I got it now, thanks. I end up with another question though.. ,

If I got this right, Christine's bus did drop her right at home at 3:45 at latest? Your bus Ken would have come by at 4:00 at latest? You and your mom arrived home at 4:10. If the pink jacket was the morning jacket, and it was not worn to the store, and it was found hung up too high, would that not place the perp there in the house with Christine before Christine went to the store?

Just trying to reconcile it all. Is there any possibility that the Horworth sighting of the blue car by the store with a girl seen struggling was of the same blue car as seen in the driveway from the bus? Could that car have given Christine a ride to the store for candy first before supposedly going off to the prison or for chicken feed or? ? Its in the right direction to the prison, the store owner claims he saw her near 4 pm, the Horwoods say the car they saw was coming from the direction of the store near 4:05 pm and the struggling was happening as the car was trying to turn north, left away from the direction of the prison.

I too believe the Horwood sighting to be significant if it can be placed into the circumstance. somehow? blue car, how many times? Three? Driveway, Store, Raveshoe near culls property?

I think you are getting a little confused. No one saw a struggle by the store, the Horwoods saw the car turning east on Ravenshoe. I don't know the Horworths you speak of. Just reread my posts. I can't make it any clearer.
 
  • #106
KJessop or anyone else: the suspect is a serial pedophile. Yet he not only sexually attacked Christine but killed her. He not only killed her but perpetrated a number of bizarre horrific injuries. Why?

I mean why this exceptional treatment of Christine. Trying to understand it. I realize it is beyond understanding but why this one homicide victim assuming it is one - and then such an extravagant attack. '

Also can't explain fully why I am asking but could Christine skate? Were there outdoor ponds near Sunderland, Queensville I would assume so.
 
  • #107
She couldn't skate. I will answer your other soon. I am worn out. I am sorry. but enough is enough for one night.
Read part of the fbi profile to do with the injuries.
 
  • #108
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/cri...rn-murdered-daughter-christine-all-over-again

From August this year.....I wonder whom else if anyone she was sexually involved with?
Or knew about her activities from others?
Perhaps someone showed up that day looking to have an encounter with her.
Perhaps they wanted more than she was welling to give. So she was raped and killed to keep her quite.
I don't see many comments that discuss a motive for the slaying of this young child.

She knew her killer.

QESTION AVBOUT A HOUSE KEY?
When she got home that day did she use a key to enter the home?
And was the key found at the house3, with the remains, or never found.
Forgive me if its been answered long ago in the other thread. I just want to know now.

If there was a key and found at the house, it could mean she left unwilling.
If if was found with her, or lost somewhere it could mean she left on her own accord.

DNA was found on her panties. At some point they were pulled up again. A crime up rape could have occured at the house first, perhaps shere the bnike was found knocked over. She was redressed and than taken somewhere raped again and this time the panties were left down around the ankle.

Could explain why the cemetary worker gave a false alibi. For he to at some point was having a sexual encounter with christine at the cemetary. And he was afraid if the LEOS found out, they may try and implicate him in her murder. But after his alibi went south I would guess at some point he finally admitted bejhind closed doors and off the record perhaps about there encounters. But with the DNA testing, he must had been exonerated also. They had to had tested him later on in the years after they obtain a DNA profile one would think.
 
  • #109
I want you to think back in time. Do you recall Christine ever receiving a gift or gifts from someone that was totally unexpected. From a non family member? Especially that last year or so around her birthday or christmas or anytime for that matter. Maybe the gift was not surprising itself, but the person whom gave her the gift was a surprise. Perhaps mom would know better?

That sweater, the hand knitted one. It was made for her yes?
She did like that sweater and Ill tell you why.
("Its the only one in the whole wide world, and its mine")
 
  • #110
Well no wonder I am confused..

from Ken-
I think you are getting a little confused. No one saw a struggle by the store, the Horwoods saw the car turning east on Ravenshoe. I don't know the Horworths you speak of. Just reread my posts. I can't make it any clearer

It was late, horworths and horwoods are one of the same. The information below was from the Kaufman inquiry. I believed most of that to be true. Seems credible, has details and specific times and locations. Not sure what to believe, hence my confusion.

I will have to stop here on this point and let others carry on. I want to believe and accept what you say Ken and do for the most part. I am having a great deal of trouble undoing what I previously believed and can not yet reconcile everything with what you are telling us. No offence and I do not mean to cause trouble. Here is my problem- From Kaufman -
The Horwoods

On October 6 1984 at 1:00am an officer of the York Police force received a telephone call from a woman stating that she and her husband had observed a suspicious occurrence. At approximately 4:00pm on October 3 Ms. Horwood and her husband saw a male person in a very dirty dark green or blue Buick near the Queensville feed mill. While waiting at an intersection, the Horwoods observed this Buick which was stopped at the intersection facing them. It had been traveling eastbound on the Queensville Sideroad and was waiting for traffic to clear so that it could proceed northbound on Leslie Street. Both Mr and Ms Horwood noticed that the male driver appeared to be holding a small child in a forceful manner in the front seat area. They were unable to obtain a licence plate number. A supplementary report was filed by the officer who took this information.

http://netk.net.au/Canada/Morin24.asp
 
  • #111
Yes, Orora, there's some confusion now about the Horwood's sighting on Queensville Sideroad near Leslie and the people in the car turning east on Ravenshoe Rd from Leslie (miles apart) that Ken referenced in an earlier post. The couple turning east on Ravenshoe Rd was from "Odd Man Out" - the Fifth Estate episode. Now they seem to be blurring together. We'll try to sort that out next time we do a Q & A with him.
 
  • #112
Okay, Sleuths, what I propose we do is this:

Send me your questions for KJessop via PM and I will collect them all and consolidate them, order them in a way that makes sense. This will facilitate a logical flow of ideas the next time KJessop is willing to do a Q & A session – instead of a jumbled barrage of questions that are all over the place and coming at him from every direction.

(Not that that happened last time – I thought it went pretty well – but we can make the process a little better, and a little easier for him, I think.)

Once I have a list of questions from everyone, and they’re organized, I’ll contact KJessop and see when he might feel up to another Q & A. When I have negotiated a date and time for that – I’ll post it here so that everyone can login and observe/read in real time.

As the Q & A progresses, and people think of new questions – they can PM the questions to me – and I can work them in.

How does that sound?
A good way to proceed?

KJessop was a real trooper last time, but he might need a break...
 
  • #113
Very good. I have some questions yet but most stem from the answer to where the Horwood sighting took place. I was happy to clear up the confusion I had over the two buses 15 minutes apart and I can see how that sort of thing can happen. Recently out in BC the 48hours investigative news show did a story on some missing people in which they apparently got the dates of certain events wrong.

A transcript or quote from the Kaufman inquiry has to be a surer bet for accuracy than recall of a fifth estate segment imo but maybe there is some other explanation as was the case for the bus timing. Will wait...

from KJ-

It felt great that a point I was questioned on, was just proven by someone thinking for themself taking the initiative to do a simple search. And what did they find, the old couple witnessing the blue car struggling with a child, like I stated.
Don't be led like sheep, question everything. even my posts. Don't be led blindly.
The truth will only be found through questions.
 
  • #114
Okay, questions are coming in - that's good. I will endeavour to understand the spirit of each question, but I will reserve the right to re-phrase some questions depending on the level of sensitivity of the topic being explored. I hope that's cool with everyone?

And, Ken will of course have the right to decline answering if he's uncomfortable. I think that's a logical courtesy.
 
  • #115
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/cri...rn-murdered-daughter-christine-all-over-again

From August this year.....I wonder whom else if anyone she was sexually involved with?
Or knew about her activities from others?
Perhaps someone showed up that day looking to have an encounter with her.
Perhaps they wanted more than she was welling to give. So she was raped and killed to keep her quite.
I don't see many comments that discuss a motive for the slaying of this young child.

She knew her killer.

QESTION AVBOUT A HOUSE KEY?
When she got home that day did she use a key to enter the home?
And was the key found at the house3, with the remains, or never found.
Forgive me if its been answered long ago in the other thread. I just want to know now.

If there was a key and found at the house, it could mean she left unwilling.
If if was found with her, or lost somewhere it could mean she left on her own accord.

DNA was found on her panties. At some point they were pulled up again. A crime up rape could have occured at the house first, perhaps shere the bnike was found knocked over. She was redressed and than taken somewhere raped again and this time the panties were left down around the ankle.

Could explain why the cemetary worker gave a false alibi. For he to at some point was having a sexual encounter with christine at the cemetary. And he was afraid if the LEOS found out, they may try and implicate him in her murder. But after his alibi went south I would guess at some point he finally admitted bejhind closed doors and off the record perhaps about there encounters. But with the DNA testing, he must had been exonerated also. They had to had tested him later on in the years after they obtain a DNA profile one would think.

She was nine years old. She was not active. We had been abused. the abuse involving her ended years before we moved to Queensville. <modsnip> Where did you come up with this. <modsnip>
 
  • #116
I want you to think back in time. Do you recall Christine ever receiving a gift or gifts from someone that was totally unexpected. From a non family member? Especially that last year or so around her birthday or christmas or anytime for that matter. Maybe the gift was not surprising itself, but the person whom gave her the gift was a surprise. Perhaps mom would know better?

That sweater, the hand knitted one. It was made for her yes?
She did like that sweater and Ill tell you why.
("Its the only one in the whole wide world, and its mine")

Pls tell me why. Our grandmother knitted it for me. It was a hand me down as I have stated b4.
No she didn't receive any gifts.......

<modsnip>
 
  • #117
I have attempted to modify and embellish the abduction theory based on information from KJessop. In places, I have made some speculations based on logic and basic human behaviour patterns. I present this new version for KJessop’s consideration. Any errors are my own. I welcome input to modify this further.

KJESSOP’s THEORY OF THE ABDUCTION (as sketched out by Dedpanman):

On October 3rd, 1984, Christine Jessop got off her school bus on Leslie Street at approximately 3:45/3:50 pm. She was most likely excited about her new acquisition – a plastic recorder (a whistle-like musical instrument) given to her that day by her school teacher. Christine picked up the mail and newspaper that had been left at the end of the driveway and went into her house. Once inside, she dropped the mail and her schoolbag. No one was home, as her brother Kenny and her mother, Janet, were out running errands. Shortly thereafter, Christine got onto her bicycle and rode south on Leslie Street to the corner store to get some gum.

Christine did not go to the park or intend to meet Leslie Chipman at the park because the two of them were not on friendly terms. Leslie Chipman’s claims that she and Christine had agreed to meet at the park with their Cabbage Patch dolls was, at best, a fabrication or a creative embellishment on her part. The fact that Christine’s doll was later found in her room at home indicates that she never intended to meet Leslie in the park. The doll was in Christine’s room the whole time and never left the house on October 3rd.

After purchasing some gum at the store, Christine rode her bicycle back to the house, at which point she encountered JP in a blue Oldsmobile waiting at the end of the Jessop driveway. Christine knew JP from the Co-op. She had encountered him many times. He was a friend of her father’s and he had sold them feed for her pet chickens which she kept in the backyard. Christine felt at ease with him. There was a certain amount of trust. After all, he was her father’s friend.

JP knew Christine’s father was in jail and he could clearly see by the empty driveway that Janet was probably not home. He likely asked Christine an innocent-sounding question to confirm that she was alone.

The opportunity he had been fantasizing about for some time had just presented itself.

JP spoke to Christine and likely told her that he intended to go visit her father at the detention center right then - and would she like to come with him? Christine leapt at the chance, but instead of getting into his vehicle immediately, she hurried into the house to get something, and in her hurry, she did not secure her bicycle properly in the back shed.

JP waited in his car for Christine at the end of the driveway, or, perhaps he drove up to the house. As he waited for her, his mind raced about what to say if Janet should arrive home at that instant. Just then, another school bus rumbled by heading north on Leslie street. On board, JP’s own stepdaughters glanced out the window and saw a blue car on the Jessop’s property. The car was also spotted by the bus driver – Mrs. Gibson.

Christine fetched her recorder from within the house to show her father and then got into the Oldsmobile with JP and they drove off together. Christine’s bicycle fell over on its own after they left, or it fell over during Christine’s hurried rush - her mind focused on soon seeing her dad. In her excitement, she did not think to leave a note for her mother.

As JP’s car pulled out onto Leslie Street, he headed north towards Ravenshoe Road. His mind was racing. He had done it - he had her – but now what? Where to take her? As he drove past his own house – he thought about his stepdaughters who would be home now, having just gotten off the bus. JP could not take her there.

He knew of many secluded places to the east where he could take her and do things and not be interrupted. The most direct route there: Ravenshoe Road.

As JP guided his Oldsmobile north, Christine would have become anxious as she knew this was not the way to go visit her father. He was located in a correctional facility to the south in Toronto. She knew the way. Something was not right.

Christine would have asked JP why they were going this way. JP probably would have attempted to lie - to allay her fears and maintain control of the situation. Depending on how good of a liar he was, Christine either accepted the explanation for the time being, or began to sense that she had made a big mistake getting into this man’s car and that she was in danger. Recent memories from school - of being warned not to get into cars with strangers may have begun to flitter through her mind.

As her anxiety increased, Christine probably asked JP to take her home – that she had changed her mind about going to see her dad. JP did not grant her request and kept driving, and at that point she knew she was in a bad situation. Christine may have demanded for him to stop the car and let her out right then and there. Again, JP did not do as she asked.

As JP’s car approached the intersection of Leslie Street and Ravenshoe Road it began to slow down to make the turn east, and at this point Christine may have attempted to open the car door and get out. JP had to control the car and control her at the same time.

At this point, an elderly couple at the same intersection witnessed this attempt by a man in a blue car to subdue a child in the front seat (Fifth Estate episode “Odd Man Out”).

In JP’s mind, panic was beginning to take hold. This wasn’t turning out like he had thought. The enormity of this situation suddenly overwhelmed him. She could never be allowed to go home. She could not be allowed to live and tell what he had done. And, it was still a long way to Sunderland.

Did he pull over to subdue her? A physical assault of some kind likely occurred. He struck her in the face...? Not necessarily. Autopsy revealed two blows to the upper part of her head (not to be confused with the massive facial injury). Or perhaps all of those injuries occurred at this point? Or, did he show her his knife and warn her about any further escape attempts?

At this point, Christine would have been completely overwhelmed with pain and completely subdued. She may not have been conscious. She was at his mercy.

JP continued east on Ravenshoe Road.

Around the same time (4:10 pm) Kenney and Janet Jessop arrived home and found Christine’s bike in a fallen state and the house empty.
 
  • #118
I'm re-posting this. The bulk of the information comes from Redrum, but KJessop has alluded to the fact that the man Polgar saw on the Fourth Concession fit the description of JP. (Unless I got that wrong - and, my apologies if I did.)

Here it is.

In March of 1985, Global Television aired a re-enactment of Christine Jessop’s presumed movements leading up to her abduction. The show referenced a blue Oldsmobile that someone had seen outside the Jessop house on October 3.

When Gabriel Polgar saw the program – and the bit about the blue car - he was “jolted” into remembering an incident that had happened to him a few days after Christine’s abduction on the Fourth Concession.

Polgar lived on the Fourth Concession about a mile west of the body dump site. He said while driving that road, he saw a stationary car that was pulled off the road and halfway into the ditch. Polgar stopped to investigate.

There was no one in the car but the trunk was open a few inches. He heard someone in the bushes making noise – like they were kicking leaves. This went on for about half a minute, then a big man came out of the trees breathing heavily and was shocked to see Polgar at his car. The man went immediately to the trunk and closed it.

Polgar felt the man’s demeanour was threatening and then there was a kind of strange staring match between them. The man then got into his car and drove off.

Polgar said the spot where this encounter happened was a swampy, low-lying area west of where Christine’s body would eventually be found. (You can find this using Google Earth.)

Polgar gave the police a good description of the man but they didn’t seem very interested in his story. He also suggested to the police that the ground was pretty soft where this happened and that there was a good chance that the man’s footprints could still be found there.

Needless to say I suppose… the police never followed up on this lead.

When you compare the Gabriel Polgar story with the Robert Billings story, the Polgar one seems more authentic somehow. The geography is specific and Polgar seemed pretty confident that evidence of his story could be found and his encounter verified.

Makin sketches out the obvious implication of this story in his book: that Polgar may have interrupted the killer who was in the process of dumping Christine's body, and because of his intrusion – the killer decided to find another spot further east down the Fourth Concession (the Culls’ property).

But, then, what about the screams being heard at night...? Unrelated, or Christine was still alive during Polgar’s experience with the strange man?
 
  • #119
Hey DPM
 
  • #120
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