Canada - Christine Jessop, 9, Queensville, Ont, 3 Oct 1984 - #2 *killer identified*

[Kimster]

That's enough. We are here to discuss the case, not another board. :tyou:

 

[KJessop]

K Kimster. Done

 

[KJessop]

Last sat. night I stayed online and answered questions for the better part of 5 hours. I am a human being. I asked people to send questions to DPM because I thought he could organize them and send me an email with them all. So I could answer them all, because it is very overwhelming to come on here and have to read so much and try to decifer the questions. I figued it would be easier if someone could condense everything pass it to me and I could answer more without getting so emotionally drained. Dpm agreed to try only 3 days ago, and I said I would try to respond once a week. Don't think he is ignoring you, or I am. It was and is so hard to try and read, answer go back read again...etc. This is easier for me. I am not here every day, sometimes not for a week or two.. Then there are a ton of questions, I try to answer. I have answered some of yours. Me receiving an email with questions is easier. I have not received the first question sheet yet.
You are not ignored. Please understand how emotionally draining this is for me. I want to answer every question. Doing it this way is my request. For my emotional state.

 

[Dedpanman]

I’m still in the process of collecting questions and arranging them in order for KJessop.

I’m trying to keep the process as transparent as possible and as inclusive as possible.

Send me your questions.

If you want, I can post the list of questions so far.

Let’s give this a shot and see if it works, shall we?

 

[KJessop]

Don't go after DPM, this was my idea. As I said sometimes I would not be on for two weeks, and the posts and questions would be overwhelming.
And people felt ignored. This is too ensure that doesn't happen. This was my idea. I am not a robot, it is hard to read all the posts without memories and feeling being dredged up. We will try this, cause its got to be easier. I am opening myself up. This lets me do it when I feel strong. Sorry if you don't like it, but at least I am trying. For Christine

 

[orora]

Well carry on then.

I asked my questions before you all began your new process. I was told by you Ken that I was confused. I posted the information direct from Kaufman. DPM carried on writing a timeleine that ignored all that as well. Have you all read the detail in that?
http://netk.net.au/Canada/Morin24.asp

<modsnip>

Explanations noted...

 

[KJessop]

We talked about it and with other members 4 days ago... Because I was missing questions, its easier for me... I just explained the differences about the car sighting. Did you miss that? I am trying something that may be easier for me to answer questions. You attacked me saying I ingored you, we are trying something that hopefully helps me answer every question. <modsnip> I am here for my sister. I just answered your questions and appologized for missing your questions.<modsnip>

 

[orora]

Ok, I apologize for my remarks and outburst.. I have what i believe to be an honest problem. A problem that brings me to a stop in knowing what to believe.

it is the Kaufman inquiry where all this was supposed to be addressed. The last I read is in conflict with what you are telling us. I'm sorry, its in the official inquiry, right down to exact roads and addresses etc.. If we can't believe the Police, the trial, and now can't believe the inquiry into what went wrong, well its a tough thing for some of us to reconcile. Nothing personal, apologies..

The Horwoods
On October 6 1984 at 1:00am an officer of the York Police force received a telephone call from a woman stating that she and her husband had observed a suspicious occurrence. At approximately 4:00pm on October 3 Ms. Horwood and her husband saw a male person in a very dirty dark green or blue Buick near the Queensville feed mill. While waiting at an intersection, the Horwoods observed this Buick which was stopped at the intersection facing them. It had been traveling eastbound on the Queensville Sideroad and was waiting for traffic to clear so that it could proceed northbound on Leslie Street. Both Mr and Ms Horwood noticed that the male driver appeared to be holding a small child in a forceful manner in the front seat area. They were unable to obtain a licence plate number. A supplementary report was filed by the officer who took this information.

A notation written directly on the supplementary report that this information should be “followed up.” Despite this fact, it was not until October 18 some 12 days later, that a follow-up was done by Sgt Venables. On that date, Ms Horwood was personally interviewed for the first time about this sighting. She told the officers that the male driver was slouched down in his seat and appeared to be holding a child with long dark hair in a very forceful manner close to his chest with his right arm, and was driving with his left hand. The Horwoods followed this Buick as it proceeded north on Leslie. The car turned west onto Fieldstone Lane in the Balmoral Heights subdivision. It drove up this street very slowly and close to the curb. The Horwoods were so concerned over what they had seen that they, too, turned into the subdivision and drove slowly around the block looking for the Buick. Unfortunately, by the time they turned into the subdivision they had lost sight of the car and did not see it again. Ms Horwood estimated that they first observed this vehicle at approximately 4:05pm. They described the driver as male, dark-skinned, mid-forties, stocky with dark hair and grubby in appearance.

 

[KJessop]

I explained it. Durham lost any file or evidence that didn't fit Morin. Christ, the ident officer doctored his books. They created evidence, they lost exculpitory evidence... They went after Morin both barrels, why do you think the second trial pretrial lasted 13 months..... They lost the orig. file from york stating they saw it at ravenshoe created a file stating queensville rd. Because it didn't fit there theory. At the inquiry, that evidence was just read in from the durham file. That is why.

 

[orora]

I don't have to ask more here, if you prefer to go though DPM.

Were the Horwoods still alive at the time of the inquiry? Were they not asked to testify there themselves? Did they testify at trial? Did they say Ravenshoe or Leslie in the transcripts?

Why coverup a ravenshoe sighting of a large blue car and then provide one of a large blue car for Leslie St.? Morin's car was a small red honda was it not? This did not help fit GPM.

etc...

 

[KJessop]

And reading it, it is obviously wrong, by the time of the inquiry Queensville and leslie had stoplights, In 84 there weren't so the horwoods would not have been stopped.

 

[KJessop]

They never testified at the inquiry. The Durham account was just read in

 

[orora]

Stoplights? Doesn't quite say that.

There were no stop signs at a 4 way intersection? Not even on the sideroad? But straight through on Leslie so just sideroad traffic has to wait? I believe that is how it was explained before.... no lights required, just stop signs.

The detail is so much in Kafman, if this was not true and not truly said by the Horwoods, someone needs to be charged! Did no one even attempt to call the Horwoods at the inquiry? Did the Horwoods testify to Ravenshoe or Leslie in either trial or were they even called to testify there? Did they ever sign any statement? Did anyone ask to see it?

The reasons for anyone to make up something like this Leslie St. vs/ Ravenshoe are not clear. The changes do not justify going after GPM any more so on Leslie than on Ravenshoe. And as noted, the Leslie sighting includes a reference to being in the neighborhood of the Feedmill where I believe your suspect worked? I once questioned whether this may be helpful to your own cause?

I asked if you ever met the Horwoods and your impression of them.. I still wonder even more now.

If anything I would believe the opposite, that Leslie St. was first reported, Ravenshoe only later when discovered that the Police did not even attempt to find that vehicle or investigate that neighborhood where it was said to have turned in. (a road very close to your house) Changing the location of the sighting from Ravenshoe to Leslie St. around your home then puts the Police in more a bad light than the other way around. imo..

If this information in regard the Horwoods is not true, and if it is true of the inquiry that none of this was even questioned, it is a very flawed process that I have trouble believing allowed this to take place. Most of society believes these inquiries to be the final place for truth to come out and provide checks and balances to keep Police and the authorities from framing people and violating our laws.

I have read other inquiry transcripts through from one end to the other. They are a pain at times to get to a point and very lengthy. I have reservations to deal with but thanks for your side.. Wish I could find where the Ravenshoe sighting is mentioned or dicussed in an official document but will have to accept your recall on the point..
thnz

 

[KJessop]

Rhe police theory was that Morin took Ravershoe... So for Durham the horwoods orig account was reasonable doubt. So they "lost" the yrp report. Then with them dead created the queensville sd rd report. The fifth estate brought it out first. How could that report come out at the second trial. So without the horwoods alive to dispute it, they created the second report.

 

[KJessop]

Remember, they presented evidence at both trials that they knew was false the fibres.... They knew it was, but they were trying to convict a child murder....

 

[orora]

It is ugly business what went on in regard the Police and the evidence. If the Police were just honestly gung ho to get a child killer at any cost, they should have been searching for the large blue oldsmobile.

Instead, well you know. It doesn't make sense in the traditional way of looking at wrongful convictions. they had other avenues to pursue, viable leads all quashed with no investigation.

Rhe police theory was that Morin took Ravershoe... So for Durham the horwoods orig account was reasonable doubt. So they "lost" the yrp report. Then with them dead created the queensville sd rd report. The fifth estate brought it out first. How could that report come out at the second trial. So without the horwoods alive to dispute it, they created the second report.

If I can go slow for a moment, it seems more the description of the car that could cause resonable doubt, not the location. So when the location of the sighting changed from Ravenshoe to Leslie St. if that was fabricated, why stick with the same car description? It does not match GPM car and raises even more reasonable doubt. It worsens that situation you dscribe for the Police if this were the case.

Rhe police theory was that Morin took Ravershoe... So for Durham the horwoods orig account was reasonable doubt

Are you confirming that he Horwoods were both dead by the time of the second trial? If so, first we heard of that.

Then with them dead created the queensville sd rd report.

From there the fifth estate is the only source left to confirm the original report? Where did they obtain it? Is that all in the odd man out story? Was there any mention the Horwoods in the first trial?

The fifth estate brought it out first. How could that report come out at the second trial. So without the horwoods alive to dispute it, they created the second report.

Were the Horwoods both dead of natural causes?

 

[Woodland]

Dedpanman - surely you can sort out the confusion here in that the Horwoods, mentioned in more than one public report who claim to have seen Christine on Queensville Sideroad facing east at Leslie Street, were not an elderly couple (they were on their way to pick up their own young child in the Keswick area) and JPegg did not drive south on Leslie to Queensville Sideroad, turn around only to drive 6 kms north on Leslie Street (the same street he supposedly started out on) before turning onto Ravenshoe Road - only to be seen by an unnamed elderly couple who supposedly came forward after Christine was found.

Please advise readers the sightings are 2 different couples - the elderly couple at Leslie and Ravenshoe Road are never mentioned in public reports that can be found, only the fifth estate episode that no one can view. Painful.

 

[KJessop]

Yes they were an elderly couple. As you know from the old A&E group. There wasn't two couples. The fifth estate episode was based on info from your hero Makin. As the mod stated, prove how you know they weren't elderly. I have time after time after time stated the facts. Woodland, if you know the elderly couple was unnamed, and you say that they didn't exist, how do you know they came forward after she was found... Explain that. Once again you are caught. One sentence, they didn't exist, next they came forward after my sister was found.
<modsnip>

 

[Dedpanman]

Orora and Ken &#8211; thanks for hashing this out. This was one of the questions that was being collected.

The original air date of &#8220;Odd Man Out&#8221; on the Fifth Estate was Tuesday, December 01, 1992 on CBC. This would have been four months after GPM was found guilty at the second trial.

So, to sum up:

Ken is saying that York Regional Police were originally told by the Horwoods that they were at Leslie and Ravenshoe Road when they had their sighting of a man in a blue car subduing a child. But the files were lost when the case was handed over to Durham Regional Police&#8230; and DRP changed the Horwood&#8217;s information so that they had their sighting at Queensville Sideroad and Leslie&#8230; because it would have blown a hole in their theory that GPM had taken Christine that way to Sunderland.

So, if the true information about the Horwoods actually being at Leslie and Ravenshoe Rd &#8211; not at Queensville Sideroad and Leslie&#8230; was established in &#8220;Odd Man Out&#8221; in December of 1992&#8230; Then that was essentially &#8220;public knowledge&#8221; for how many years before the inquiry...? Five?

And Makin missed that&#8230;in both versions of his book&#8230; and in the numerous Globe and Mail articles he wrote&#8230;

And it was the incorrect version that Durham police officers presented at the Kaufman inquiry&#8230;? People must have known it was wrong - that the cops were lying because it was established by the Fifth Estate&#8230; five years previous.

That&#8217;s huge.

Ken, you mentioned that you have an old VHS copy of &#8220;Odd Man Out&#8221;&#8230;
Is there any way you could get that relevant clip posted on Youtube&#8230;? Or, somewhere for us to see?

I know that&#8217;s asking a lot. Time consuming and complicated&#8230;
But if what you&#8217;re saying could be validated by the show&#8230;
It would settle this issue forever.

 

[Dedpanman]

BTW: I am going to post the questions that have come in, I just need some time to sort them out and arrange them in order. Coming soon.