Canada - Coronavirus COVID-19 #4

[CSIDreamer]

The Ambassador Bridge is privately owned, correct? I'm unfamiliar with Canadian law. The PM can order people off private land? Did the owner have to file a complaint with the PM?

 

[MistyWaters]

The Conservative party has been meeting with the convoy. They're the ones that can present their demands in parliament, which they are planning to do (at least the ones they can do, like call for an end to federal vaccinate mandates). Yesterday they asked for the protest to end. Conservatives call for blockades to end, pushing feds to end COVID-19 mandates

IMO, this is why Trudeau is acting now, the Conservatives have failed to negotiate an end to the protests.

I wonder if the Conservatives have any influence over the Liberals whatsoever but I’m thinking not. But I’ve often heard people mumbling about lack of information regarding COVID restrictions so we might have some hope to go back to a semi-normal lifestyle. This isn’t just related to truckers but I think a high level of frustration about not knowing anything is responsible for support gained for truckers. I’m just tossing things out there but for example, when does a pandemic become a endemic, then what is the yardstick for when the government considers relaxing COVID restrictions or are vaccine mandates intended to be in place forever more? (Sort of like income tax and GST.) Specifically for truckers, they’d probably like to know a good reason why they’re singled out for vaccine mandates as opposed to say, temporary foreign workers or asylum seekers who are presently exempt. JMO

“However, as of January 15, 2022, all foreign nationals must be fully vaccinated to enter Canada, unless otherwise exempt. Notable exemptions are included for unvaccinated new permanent residents, refugees, temporary foreign workers in agriculture or food-processing occupations, asylum claimants, and some minors under the age of 18.”
https://www.canada.ca/en/immigratio...delivery/coronavirus/travel-restrictions.html

 

[Satchie]

I recall the truckers initial demands were to meet with the Prime Minister but he has refused. However I’m reminded of the rail blockades of 2020 which put rail transport in Canada to a complete halt, causing a severe backlog at shipping ports, then talks with government officials were eventually held resulting in a peaceful ending. So it baffles me how the trucking protest is being handled so differently.

It doesn’t matter who negotiates however professional negotiation is both a science and an art and for that reason perhaps not everyone would be successful. But I’m not sure Canada has a well- respected third party who’s willing and able, and who meets the criteria of being acceptable to both sides. And the way things usually slog along in Canada, it probably would take months or years before a selection was made. JMO

First day of meetings between ministers, Wet’suwet’en chiefs wraps up on positive note | Globalnews.ca
“Wet’suwet’en hereditary chiefs and the federal and B.C. ministers of Indigenous relations wrapped up a first day of talks Thursday with no resolution, but with plans to resume meeting Friday morning.

The chiefs tell Global News the talks in Smithers, B.C., went well as all sides attempt to find a solution to the dispute over the Coastal GasLink pipeline project…”

Yes, that was a government to government negotiation on a long-standing issue on their territory. However the protests blocking the rail lines had been broken up by police days/weeks earlier:

Metro Vancouver port blockade prompts injunction, 57 arrested Monday | Vancouver Sun

CityNews
Police move to clear rail blockade on Tyendinaga Mohawk Territory

 

[Satchie]

IMO we have a clearly defined process in Canada, if people want to change things beyond just voting in elections, then they have to get involved through the political process, but work within that process. Lobby politicians, get involved in a political party, etc. Protest are fine, if you just want to express an opinion by carrying a sign. But you can't circumvent the political process and get results by direct action. IMO that's an attempt to undermine the democratic system itself, just like the attack on the US capital last year.

JMO

 

[Satchie]

The Ambassador Bridge is privately owned, correct? I'm unfamiliar with Canadian law. The PM can order people off private land? Did the owner have to file a complaint with the PM?

The PM doesn't have that kind of power. The injunction to remove protesters from blocking the border was issued by a judge, the request was brought by the City of Windsor and by the auto companies who have factories in the area. The protesters also had spokespeople who appeared before the judge.

"The individuals on site are trespassing on municipal roads and if need be will be removed to allow for the safe and efficient movement of goods across the border," [the judge] said.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/windsor/ambassador-bridge-blocked-protest-fourth-day-1.6346185

 

[dotr]

Opportunity to end convoy protest peacefully is slipping away, experts say | CBC News
''As the protest against vaccine mandates heads into its third weekend in Ottawa and spreads to border towns, observers say the window for ending it peacefully is closing''

''Rozdilsky said the very real risk of injuries and deaths likely explains police reluctance to enforce existing laws and bylaws.
With the protesters in Ottawa camped out near homes, offices and businesses, he said — and with authorities lacking clear intelligence on how much hazardous material they've brought with them — there is also a fire risk to consider.

"There's going to be a number of bad choices that authorities can make to end it," he said. "What they're going to have to do is make a choice that will be the best of the worst choices.''

''While many protesters have flocked to Ottawa to voice their opposition to vaccine mandates, others have said their goal is to force the dissolution of the elected federal government, or to create a logistical nightmare that forces the federal government to repeal all mandates''

"It's not a kind of protest that is just about people and you go there and you tear gas them and you disperse people. It's it's not the same thing. It's talking about trucks. Heavy vehicles [are] what pose the biggest problem," he said.

"Let people protest. It's an individual right. Trucks have no right to protest."

 

[Sillybilly]

ADMIN NOTE:

Members who persist with political comments will be placed on Time Out.

Post accordingly.

Thanks.

 

[musicaljoke]

The trucker protest seems so bizarre on many levels. They are attacking their own group, the truckers who need to get across the border.

If they want people to be able to cross the border freely, why not make that happen. Instead they close it down. It's like they are scoring in their own net.

Frankly, I don't think the truckers know what they want. I suspect it's just a general angst, fear and fatigue, and that they are pumped by the gathering of like minded people.

My brother is in that group. He's always walked the planet with his fist in the air. He's a bully. He has a truck, but doesn't do much trucking, preferring to stay home on his farm. But it's a slow season for farming and he's close to the border, so he's there, being a disturber.

Oh, did I tell you that he has a daughter with Spinal Bifida who had a kidney transplant a couple of years ago? You'd think we would pull out all the stops to make his community as safe as possible. But no.

Meanwhile, covid recommendations and mandates are winding down, and covid will be let loose. The voice of public health leaders is muffled out by the blare of horns. Is the public going to be ready for the next step when they can't hear how to manage the way out?

[URL="https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2022/02/11/heres-what-experts-say-we-need-to-do-to-protect-ourselves-as-we-learn-to-live-with-covid-19.html"]Here’s what experts say we need to do to protect ourselves as we ‘learn to live with COVID-19’. [/URL]

 

[Satchie]

The Teamsters is the largest truckers union:

Teamsters Denounce Freedom Convoy Blockade at Canadian Border

And an earlier statement by Teamsters Canada:

"We join in the calls urging those protesters with legitimate concerns to go back to their own communities and work with local politicians. "

The Real Enemy for Truckers is Covid-19 | Teamsters Canada

 

[otto]

I don’t think anyone really knows what it is they want and it’s not even clear who’s leading the protest. IMO that’s what an government appointed negotiator should be finding out if ever there’s going to be a timely and peaceful end to this. JMO

Three people were mentioned as organizing the protest, but only Tamara Lich has been seen live as the protest media spokesperson. She is also the fundraiser. It's a virtual social-media managed and organized protest. When protesters are asked who is the organizer, they don't know, they claim that everyone in the protest is a leader. When asked what they want, answers vary. When asked what "freedom" means, answers vary.

My personal opinion is that they want to overthrow the federal government, as Trudeau has been under attack since the protest started. They wanted Trudeau to remove provincial mandates, but we know that Trudeau has no authority to do that. Premiers stepped up to try to solve the problem. As we saw with the Coutts, Alberta border blockade, even when the government gives them what they said they want, they say it's not good enough.

In Alberta, university students polled students and determined that students want vaccine and mask mandates to remain in place. Universities are listening to students rather than government or protesters. Protesters do not speak for Canadians.

"Advanced Education Minister Demetrios Nicolaides said on Wednesday that as of March 1, post-secondary institutions will be able to return to pre-pandemic delivery without physical distancing, masking and vaccine mandates.

"It is my expectation that all of Alberta's universities, colleges and polytechnics will align their COVID-19 policies and practices with that of Alberta's Government," he wrote in a letter to board chairs.
...

The University of Alberta and the University of Calgary have announced that students will return to campus on Feb. 28 as planned and masking will remain mandatory for the time being."​

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmo...emain-university-of-alberta-calgary-1.6347652

 

[dotr]

‘Freedom convoy’ protests Feb. 12 live updates | The Star
''12 p.m. More people have joined a protest near the Canada-U.S. border crossing at the Ambassador Bridge in Windsor, Ont.

Police officers have formed a line by the intersection of Huron Church Road and College Avenue and are slowly moving toward the protesters, forcing those on foot and in vehicles to move further away from the foot of the bridge.
Police cruisers and buses can be seen blocking the intersection.''

The protesters are standing their ground despite earlier threats from police that vehicles will get towed and people will be charged with mischief if they block the flow of traffic.

''The crowd of roughly 150 protesters is cheering and chanting “Freedom.”
EEK!
Security expert. Mountie. Soldier: Meet three men working with the ‘Freedom convoy’ | The Star

 

[Satchie]

Three people were mentioned as organizing the protest, but only Tamara Lich has been seen live as the protest media spokesperson. She is also the fundraiser. It's a virtual social-media managed and organized protest. When protesters are asked who is the organizer, they don't know, they claim that everyone in the protest is a leader. When asked what they want, answers vary. When asked what "freedom" means, answers vary.

My personal opinion is that they want to overthrow the federal government, as Trudeau has been under attack since the protest started. They wanted Trudeau to remove provincial mandates, but we know that Trudeau has no authority to do that. Premiers stepped up to try to solve the problem. As we saw with the Coutts, Alberta border blockade, even when the government gives them what they said they want, they say it's not good enough.

In Alberta, university students polled students and determined that students want vaccine and mask mandates to remain in place. Universities are listening to students rather than government or protesters. Protesters do not speak for Canadians.

"Advanced Education Minister Demetrios Nicolaides said on Wednesday that as of March 1, post-secondary institutions will be able to return to pre-pandemic delivery without physical distancing, masking and vaccine mandates.

"It is my expectation that all of Alberta's universities, colleges and polytechnics will align their COVID-19 policies and practices with that of Alberta's Government," he wrote in a letter to board chairs.
...

The University of Alberta and the University of Calgary have announced that students will return to campus on Feb. 28 as planned and masking will remain mandatory for the time being."​

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmo...emain-university-of-alberta-calgary-1.6347652

That's interesting, here in supposedly restriction-heavy BC, universities began reopening for classes a couple of weeks ago. I believe they all require vaccination for attendance, though.

So much seems to depend on the tone adopted by the politicians in their press conferences. IMO, the actual measures are similar everywhere, it's just the rhetoric around it that varies.

ETA correction: UBC apparently did close until this week.
JMO

 

[otto]

That's interesting, here in supposedly restriction-heavy BC, universities began reopening for classes a couple of weeks ago. I believe they all require vaccination for attendance, though.

So much seems to depend on the tone adopted by the politicians in their press conferences. IMO, the actual measures are similar everywhere, it's just the rhetoric around it that varies.

ETA correction: UBC apparently did close until this week.
JMO

Alberta university students have been learning from home since the beginning of the semester. I have two family members attending two different universities, and the most stressful thing for them is the constant 2 week update about whether they will return to in-class learning.

In-class learning means bus passes or parking arrangements, accommodations near university (some international students are not in Canada), moving into residences, navigating the campus to find classroom location, meeting classmates in-person for the first time when focus should be on midterms, assignments. Students have to change their lifestyle in the middle of the semester, a semester filled with constant possibility that it will change abruptly. Students I've spoken to do not want to risk getting sick as a condition for learning. According to the article I linked about universities, 80% of students want to retain some level of mask and vaccine mandates.

Coutts, Alberta protesters object to the fact that all mandates were not immediately removed, but they do not realize that these changes take time. Universities with 30-40,000 students cannot start in-person learning and teaching overnight.

 

[otto]

Something I'm wondering - Trudeau tested positive for covid about a week ago, he isolated for the required 5 days. He's made appearances recently and he seems perfectly healthy with no apparent illness.

He's an example of how people who are vaccinated and boosted recover quickly and easily, with minimal symptoms. So I'm wondering - if people have partied for a week in Ottawa, and no one is reportedly getting sick, hospitals are not filling up, is that evidence that the pandemic is over? Is this the "Pandemic is Over" party?

Windsor seems to have an increase in cases. On Friday, there were 127 new high risk cases. Currently active cases is 638. That seems like a lot of new cases on one day - not sure.

"The Windsor-Essex County Health Unit confirmed 127 new high-risk cases of COVID-19, but no new deaths associated with the virus, in the region on Friday.

There are currently 638 active, confirmed high-risk cases of COVID-19 in Windsor-Essex. Sixty-six people are in hospital, with nine in the ICU."
​

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/windsor/windsor-essex-covid-update-1.6348327

Omicron has a 3 day incubation period, sometimes shorter. The protest started on Tuesday. That's 4 days ago. Windsor covid stats: Local COVID-19 Data | The Windsor-Essex County Health Unit

Is there an increase in cases since Thursday?

 

[otto]

Did politicians drop the ball and continue restrictions longer than necessary? If this follows the 1918 pandemic, then the natural end of the virus is within the next 6 months.

It's been suggested that too many unvaccinated people in the population can be fertile ground for new variants. I suppose that's why there's a push for people who work with the public and across borders to be vaccinated. That seems like a fair request if transmission is reduced.

As a teen in 1972, I had to carry a vaccine passport when I traveled to Europe alone. I came across it recently. Required vaccine documents for cross border travel didn't seem strange then, yet there's so much resistance today.

If people don't want to get the vaccine ... has the world evolved? Can we have the world we had before the pandemic? Might we see another wave in the Spring or Fall? Canada is so far not a breeding ground for new variants. All rhetorical. Curious to understand what's going on.

 

[MistyWaters]

Did politicians drop the ball and continue restrictions longer than necessary? If this follows the 1918 pandemic, then the natural end of the virus is within the next 6 months.

It's been suggested that too many unvaccinated people in the population can be fertile ground for new variants. I suppose that's why there's a push for people who work with the public and across borders to be vaccinated. That seems like a fair request if transmission is reduced.

As a teen in 1972, I had to carry a vaccine passport when I traveled to Europe alone. I came across it recently. Required vaccine documents for cross border travel didn't seem strange then, yet there's so much resistance today.

If people don't want to get the vaccine ... has the world evolved? Can we have the world we had before the pandemic? Might we see another wave in the Spring or Fall? Canada is so far not a breeding ground for new variants. All rhetorical. Curious to understand what's going on.

There’s beginning to be discussion arising about the lack of effectiveness of two doses, even the 3rd dose. I think there certainly could be another variant popping up in the future but vaccines must evolve as well. If not, I doubt the majority people will flock to receive if knowing in advance the vaccine is effective only for a few months.

This does bring into question the logic behind the government’s strong stance on vaccine mandates at this point in time. JMO

https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/canada-vaccine-mandate-passport-covid-19-omicron-boosters-1.6349038
“Dr. Allison McGeer, a medical microbiologist and infectious diseases specialist at Toronto's Mount Sinai Hospital, said Canada now needs to make an "extraordinarily difficult" call on whether to expand vaccine mandates and passports — or abolish them altogether.

"We've got to make a decision about whether we're not having them or whether we're going to three doses," she said. "Because two doses is no longer very functional and the situation has changed completely because of Omicron." ……

…….Still, the data shows booster effectiveness can drop in the mere months after a third dose. This calls into question the role that vaccine mandates and passports will play in the future, and highlights the growing need to update our vaccines.

 

[MistyWaters]

Something I'm wondering - Trudeau tested positive for covid about a week ago, he isolated for the required 5 days. He's made appearances recently and he seems perfectly healthy with no apparent illness.

He's an example of how people who are vaccinated and boosted recover quickly and easily, with minimal symptoms. So I'm wondering - if people have partied for a week in Ottawa, and no one is reportedly getting sick, hospitals are not filling up, is that evidence that the pandemic is over? Is this the "Pandemic is Over" party?

Windsor seems to have an increase in cases. On Friday, there were 127 new high risk cases. Currently active cases is 638. That seems like a lot of new cases on one day - not sure.

"The Windsor-Essex County Health Unit confirmed 127 new high-risk cases of COVID-19, but no new deaths associated with the virus, in the region on Friday.

There are currently 638 active, confirmed high-risk cases of COVID-19 in Windsor-Essex. Sixty-six people are in hospital, with nine in the ICU."
​

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/windsor/windsor-essex-covid-update-1.6348327

Omicron has a 3 day incubation period, sometimes shorter. The protest started on Tuesday. That's 4 days ago. Windsor covid stats: Local COVID-19 Data | The Windsor-Essex County Health Unit

Is there an increase in cases since Thursday?

I don’t recall that Trudeau tested positive for Covid, I think it was that he was exposed to it from a close contact (one of his children iirc) although he tested negative, he put himself in voluntary isolation for 5 days as a precaution. It appears the likelihood of younger, healthy people contacting Omicron requiring hospitalization is very low so it’d be difficult to predict whether or not Windsor will see an increase.

 

[otto]

I don’t recall that Trudeau tested positive for Covid, I think it was that he was exposed to it from a close contact (one of his children iirc) although he tested negative, he put himself in voluntary isolation for 5 days as a precaution. It appears the likelihood of younger, healthy people contacting Omicron requiring hospitalization is very low so it’d be difficult to predict whether or not Windsor will see an increase.

Prime Minister Trudeau tested positive for covid on Jan 31.

Protesters are so out of touch with reality that they accused Canada's prime minister of faking covid, alleging that he was afraid of the protesters.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau-protest-ottawa-1.6333316

 

[MistyWaters]

Prime Minister Trudeau tested positive for covid on Jan 31.

Protesters are so out of touch with reality that they accused Canada's prime minister of faking covid, alleging that he was afraid of the protesters.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau-protest-ottawa-1.6333316

You’re right. Apparently he was asymptomatic.
Prime Minister Trudeau tests positive for COVID-19

 

[Satchie]

"We've got to make a decision about whether we're not having them or whether we're going to three doses," she said. "Because two doses is no longer very functional and the situation has changed completely because of Omicron." ….

RSBM
But it's been pointed out that, although vaccines may not prevent transmission of this variant (masks and social distancing are more effective for that) they do prevent the likelihood of severe illness and death.

Good News: Full Vaccination Protects Against Omicron Hospitalization And Death

I don't know who that particular person is, that the CBC is citing. But it seems very peculiar that she would misinterpret the puposes and function of vaccines in that way.

Everyone hopes the pandemic will soon come to an end. IMO waiting a few more months is no big deal if it gives more people the chance to live their full lifetime of decades afterwards.

BTW, I find these graphs from Worldometer very interesting:
Cases (left) and Daily deaths (right) in Canada throughout the pandemic:



Even a supposedly 'harmless' variant like Onmicron, in a population that is highly vaccinated, and with many restrictions to prevent spread, has resulted in a high number of deaths, which undoubtedly impacts hospitals and their ability to treat other health care problems, like cancer.

JMO