GUILTY Canada - Diane Werendowicz, 23, raped & murdered, Hamilton, Ont, June 1981

[Claroon]

I've created a timeline. I notice a discrepancy between when MM says
RB married CK and when EK says he was bestman. EK says '87 and MM says she worked there in '88 so was she seeing a married man or does EK have the yr wrong?

 

[juka13]

Welcome to Ws juka13!
Very difficult case and yes, somewhat sickening.

thank you! I just hope the jury come to a decision this time and I hope the killer isn't out there somewhere getting away with committing this terrible murder. I am loving all your theories! The one about the ex boyfriend really captured my attention. I hope to god he was questioned after those accusations...same with CV.

 

[Claroon]

Not that it means anything, just another conflictual piece of info that:

Doug Shaw - told court he was introduced to Werendowicz, the late Steve Langdon. Werendowicz was sitting at a table with Janice Noble, Lori Allen and Sharon Hinkley, whom Shaw had known for several years.

But other reports say the girls were standing at the bar because it was so crowded. I suppose later a table may have come available or Shaw got confused of the detail.

 

[Claroon]

Reading an older article it says this

"I noticed that she appeared tired and mentioned it must be because of the 12-hour shift that they worked," Noble said.

http://www.thespec.com/news-story/2174944-friends-recall-victim-s-last-night/

I'm thinking this tired girl is not going to want to stop to smoke up or become sexual if she's that tired. IMO

But this testimony is from another trial so these jurors may not catch that.

 

[deugirtni]

From Oct 4th SC Tweets, (quoted below).

Beer bottles and cigarette butts were found strewn around in the area where DW's body was found, but yet police did not collect any of those for samples/testing. Was this area a party area for teenagers? Did DW happen upon a 'party' in the ravine as she walked home? Would any relevant DNA have been found on any of those beer bottles or cigarette butts, had police collected them? Could drunken teenage party-goers have seen DW walking through the ravine, obviously intoxicated, and decided to mug her, and one of them ended up killing her instead? Would BM have been of the age to be doing that sort of thing at that time, perhaps with kids he knew from highschool?

Watkins says other officers were "primarily conducting the search" of the crime scene. He agrees there was a lot of "debris" strewn about.

There were beer bottles and other litter in the ravine, Watkins agrees. "There was evidence there'd been some drinking going on."

Retired officer Watkins speaks low and slow from the witness stand. #

Watkins says items that looked like they'd been there a long time were not collected. No beer bottles or cigarette butts.

The above quote is not clear as to whether the beer bottles and butts appeared to have been there a long time, or whether they just weren't collected because they were felt to be unrelated?

 

[deugirtni]

Reading an older article it says this http://www.thespec.com/news-story/2174944-friends-recall-victim-s-last-night/

I'm thinking this tired girl is not going to want to stop to smoke up or become sexual if she's that tired. IMO

But this testimony is from another trial so these jurors may not catch that.

For some reason, I am getting somewhat of a sense of 'depressed' from what I'm hearing about DW that evening. Didn't want to go to the bar with these people; didn't know anyone at the bar that night; had just split very recently with her boyfriend; her friend, the only one that she actually knew at the bar that night, seems to have left her there with her 2 other friends, pretty much as soon as they arrived (at 11pm), from Lori's own account. Then she drank a lot of beer really fast, and then she left, earlier than the rest, without even saying good night to her friend Lori, or waiting for transportation home. Her birthday was Monday.. she was young and single.. what had she been hoping for, in reality? If she was feeling down, i'm thinking she may have been open to joining a guy who seemed interested, for some weed, and ... whatever else transpired. I think it's common for people to do something like that after a breakup, I forget what the term is? (It prob can't be posted here anyway!).

 

[deugirtni]

I've created a timeline. I notice a discrepancy between when MM says
RB married CK and when EK says he was bestman. EK says '87 and MM says she worked there in '88 so was she seeing a married man or does EK have the yr wrong?

i noticed that too, and i suspected that the girlfriend had the dates wrong.. but now that you mention it.. EK says that RB was married to TH when he first knew RB, and she worked at a grocery store.. ek said RB and C met in 1984 and married in 1987. But it was stated that RB had been married to TH for 3 years, ending in 1985. RB was engaged to TH (or at least he was engaged a few weeks later when the DR attack occurred) at the time of DW's murder, which was in mid 1981.. not sure when he actually married her, and not sure if when they say the marriage ended in 1985, if that means they split then, or if it means they divorced then (which could mean they split earlier than that).

It must suck being a juror and not getting to ask all the questions you want answers to!! I find it interesting when the judge asks questions!

 

[deugirtni]

just wanted to mention.. earlier it was written that RB had lied in his initial statement to police, in saying that he never saw DW, wasn't with her, etc. That statement was thrown out due to him not having obtained appropriate legal counsel before being questioned, even though he had requested a specific lawyer. I also threw it out there that RB could have driven DW home after their encounter that night, but may have never admitted it due to feeling police wouldn't have believed him. i also noticed that DW's friend Lori, also lied initially to police, when she said the two had smoked a cigarette. She later said she was afraid for police to find out she had smoked weed. police knew that someone had smoked weed since the evidence was sitting right there in the ashtray. how many people lie when questioned by police, before they know what police know? Seems to be pretty common for people to want to save their own butts. if you know you did something illegal, or which could come out making you appear guilty of something much much worse, how many people fess up right away?

 

[deugirtni]

I've pondered the 2 person scenario before - RB and BM both attack her. Seemed weird to me RB described that the 2nd person fondled and groped her only as though he knew. And that later became an MO of BM. Maybe this was BM in training.

and if RB car pooled with EK at times, maybe he also car pooled with BM although BM was at Stelco location.

'presuming' RB is telling the truth on his version of events that night, RB likely had a few years to ponder before he testified, how it was that DW ended up murdered after she left him very much alive earlier that night. Police were saying she was 'raped'. i'm not sure at which point that rape portion was made public in the news. When RB was arrested he was charged with both rape and murder i believe, since only then could they hope to get a first degree murder conviction. he knew after speaking with police that his DNA was confirmed to have been found inside DW, so if the murderer was also a sexual assaulter, he would have fondled her, and not penetrated her, or at least not ejaculated. So to me, it was a fairly good assumption that RB would figure that out and portray it as if he knew. i believe it was said that during the many sexual assaults for which BM was convicted, there were several when he did not actually penetrate the victim... I'm not sure if his semen was in any of his victims, can't find much info on his attacks. Also can't find any info on the 'ravine rapist' attacks.

 

[deugirtni]

just wondering.. from Oct 18th tweets by LH..

-DW's friend Lori was on the stand testifying.

-She said she had brought DW to Malarkeys.. that Lori knew lots of people there that night, she thought she'd intro'd them to DW, and when her 2 other friends arrived, she left DW with them, and went to chat with other friends in the bar, saying it was the last time she had seen DW that night, and tht it was around 11pm.

-DW spent the remainder of her time there alone with the 2 friends of Lori's, who she hadn't ever met prior to that night..

-Lori noted that she had parked behind the mall, near the door closest to Malarkeys.

-From that, I am getting that to park in the rear of the mall would actually make sense, if one was going to Malarkeys.

-When DW decided to leave, it was around one hour after she had last seen her friend.. she didn't say goodnight to her.. was it because she couldn't see her/find her? Or was DW p!$$ed that her friend had just dumped her with people she didn't know and went off to flit with her friends?

-When DW left Malarkey's to go home, wherever the 'rear' of the mall is (it is not obvious from googlemaps, since there are several sides to the mall, and another building within the parking lot, which, if malarkey's was in *that* building, the rear of that lot would be the front of the other lot), it sounds like it is in the area closest to the door to the bar.. in any case, did she perhaps have a look to see if her friend, Lori's car was still parked in the lot/same place? That would make sense if she hadn't seen her friend there for the last hour, she would have been wondering perhaps if she had left and gone home herself?.. and then she ended up meeting up with RB.

-'They' make it sound like some really creepy, stalky thing that RB had parked in the 'back', and further, that DW wouldn't have gone around to the back, etc.. but according to Lori, that was where the door closest to the bar was actually located, and it is also where she herself had parked, so doesn't sound like so creepy afterall, does it?

-Interesting how 'they' can present information in such a negative, accusing, creep light in regard to the accused to those who probably wouldn't be aware of such subtleties (the jury), but yet the accused is not allowed to present evidence in regard to DW's boyfriend whose semen was found in her panties that night, even though he stated he hadn't seen her for a week. (!!!!)

Allen parked behind the mall, at the entrance closest to Malarky's. She would have exited the lot on the east side and then gone north.

 

[deugirtni]

....With 2 BMs in the story which one? The one Lori knew who didn't go to Saltfleet? The one from Stelco who did and RB knew? The one who later became guilty of sex assault?

Imo, there is only 1 BM, the one that Lori knew of was one and the same. For some reason she didn't know or remember that BM went to the same highschool as herself (Saltfleet). But at the time of DW's murder, BM was 18 years old, while Lori was 22 years old (she was a year younger than DW who was turning 24 2 days after her murder). That would make it entirely possible that the two did not attend the same highschool at the same TIME, considering their age gap is 4-5 years. It is also entirely possible that Lori had never asked BM his age, and she just thought/assumed he was around the same.

Tweets from Oct 18th:
SC:

Lori Allen-Fesson is sworn in. DOB April 18, 1959. She went to Saltfleet High School and then nursing school in #hamont.

In her statement she said they smoked cigarettes. "I was 22 and really nervous about telling police I was smoking a joint."

Lori knew a guy named Brian Miller growing up in Stoney Creek. (He is the alternate suspect in Diane's murder.)

Lori gave another statement to @HamiltonPolice in 1989. Asked by Det. Tom McKittrick if Miller was in Malarkey's that night in 1981.

"He very well could have been," said Lori, but not certain.

Crown re-exam. Lori skated with Brian Miller who was about her age. But he did not go to Saltfleet. She doesn't know his date of birth.

Crown Gzik seems to be suggesting it may be a different Brian Miller...Witness is done.

LH:

Many of Allan's Stoney Creek friends were at the bar. She knew Brian Miller - he was once considered a suspect in #Werendowicz murder

Allan isn't sure if Brian Miller was at Malarky's that night. He could have been. Allan thought #Werendowicz was single.

Brian Miller was about her age, Allen recalls under Crown cross exam. He didn't go to the same high school. #Badgerow

ETA: how do we know that RB knew BM?

 

[deugirtni]

Out into the hall and down the elevator and through the lobby? I doubt it. There are several buildings in that area all very closely together so anyone would have seen that.

Don't forget that we could be talking about the wee hours of the morning, like 3am perhaps, or even later. (We don't have a TOD and her bf apparently worked until 1:30am). Who'd be around? Someone said there weren't a lot of security cams back then either. Also, back in 1981 the whole alcohol thing was much free-er than it is now. It may not have been such a weird sight to see a guy helping his intoxicated girlfriend walk out to the car so he could drive her home. It was a bit of a different world.

Written in 2013:

Over the last three decades there have been increasing calls for further restrictions on the availability and consumption of alcohol. These include tax increases; higher minimum legal drinking ages; lower legal blood alcohol concentration levels for operating motor vehicles and other equipment; promotion of abstinence from drinking; more vigorous enforcement of alcohol laws; more (p.10) severe punishment for alcohol law violators; stronger server (commercial and social) liability laws; stronger warning labels on alcoholic drink containers; increased restrictions on alcohol advertising and promotion; and the stigmatization of alcohol and marginalization of those who consume alcohol, even when doing so in moderation (19, 45).

http://www.oxfordscholarship.com/vi...5786.001.0001/acprof-9780199655786-chapter-01

In December 1981, Ontario passed its so-called 'happy hour' legislation. The law allowed bar and restaurant owners to offer reduced drink prices and free food to their customers.

http://www.cbc.ca/archives/entry/1984-ontario-announces-happy-hour-ban

 

[Claroon]

From Oct 4th SC Tweets, (quoted below).

Beer bottles and cigarette butts were found strewn around in the area where DW's body was found, but yet police did not collect any of those for samples/testing. Was this area a party area for teenagers? Did DW happen upon a 'party' in the ravine as she walked home? Would any relevant DNA have been found on any of those beer bottles or cigarette butts, had police collected them? Could drunken teenage party-goers have seen DW walking through the ravine, obviously intoxicated, and decided to mug her, and one of them ended up killing her instead? Would BM have been of the age to be doing that sort of thing at that time, perhaps with kids he knew from highschool?



The above quote is not clear as to whether the beer bottles and butts appeared to have been there a long time, or whether they just weren't collected because they were felt to be unrelated?

I agree with you. They dismissed them as unrelated, but IMO they would tell them who frequented the area if they could get prints. Of course, seems prints in this case were moot and unless someone has a record they won't get a match. Still, I would have collected them if I were Det. Claroon which I'm not.

 

[Claroon]

For some reason, I am getting somewhat of a sense of 'depressed' from what I'm hearing about DW that evening. Didn't want to go to the bar with these people; didn't know anyone at the bar that night; had just split very recently with her boyfriend; her friend, the only one that she actually knew at the bar that night, seems to have left her there with her 2 other friends, pretty much as soon as they arrived (at 11pm), from Lori's own account. Then she drank a lot of beer really fast, and then she left, earlier than the rest, without even saying good night to her friend Lori, or waiting for transportation home. Her birthday was Monday.. she was young and single.. what had she been hoping for, in reality? If she was feeling down, i'm thinking she may have been open to joining a guy who seemed interested, for some weed, and ... whatever else transpired. I think it's common for people to do something like that after a breakup, I forget what the term is? (It prob can't be posted here anyway!).

But she still had CV's semen in her panties. She COULD have a relationship if she chose to. Furthermore, on the pregnancy thing--she wouldn't be drinking would she if she was preg. So you are saying she maybe overcompensated to drown her sorrows by screwing some dude she supposedly didn't know.

A workmate talked her into going out to meet people she doesn't know and then abandoned her. If I were the lawyer, I'd ask LA what led up to her asking her out? Did she say it was her birthday and had nothing to do? Her parent seems to have thought a private party was being planned at the apartment. and I'd ask what made you think she didn't want to and why were you persistent with someone you never hung out with before?

I wonder if LA was talked into asking her. Seems weird to me if they'd never hung out to suddenly smoke a joint at her apt. If someone talked me into going out when I didn't want to first I'd be hesitant and uncomfortable being with someone I never usually hung out with. If the person I went with left me with strangers (loud busy bar, you're not going to have much conversation aside from yelling at each other) I'd say I'm outta here, especially if I were tired. And maybe the bar tender told her no more (they do today under law if a person is too drunk).

Yes, you'd think she'd tell her ride she was leaving, but maybe she couldn't find her or felt LA was too drunk to talk to.

On a separate note, seems to me I read LA drove 2 friends home. Were they the same two and if so did they leave their car there? Maybe because they were drunk.

I can see DW might have felt confused, tired, and maybe angry at her friend for leaving her with strangers. I know the old document says she hooked up (was it Barbados?) with a guy she hardly knew but was that after working a 12 hr shift?

 

[deugirtni]

I agree with you. They dismissed them as unrelated, but IMO they would tell them who frequented the area if they could get prints. Of course, seems prints in this case were moot and unless someone has a record they won't get a match. Still, I would have collected them if I were Det. Claroon which I'm not.

Me too, Det Claroon. Further to the (lack of) prints... remember when they were trying to get a match on .. i believe it was the telephone receiver.. they sent only one of the prints (apparently only one was good enough to send) to OPP, but were told that OPP didn't keep records of the baby finger prints.. I saw there thinking, but... if they HAD the prints of BM, RB, CV, the ex boyfriend out west (since he did jail time).. then who would have required OPP to have kept a stash of baby finger prints? They could simply have compared it to those they suspected, since those were already available anyway. SMH

 

[deugirtni]

But she still had CV's semen in her panties. She COULD have a relationship if she chose to. Furthermore, on the pregnancy thing--she wouldn't be drinking would she if she was preg. So you are saying she maybe overcompensated to drown her sorrows by screwing some dude she supposedly didn't know.

A workmate talked her into going out to meet people she doesn't know and then abandoned her. If I were the lawyer, I'd ask LA what led up to her asking her out? Did she say it was her birthday and had nothing to do? Her parent seems to have thought a private party was being planned at the apartment. and I'd ask what made you think she didn't want to and why were you persistent with someone you never hung out with before?

I wonder if LA was talked into asking her. Seems weird to me if they'd never hung out to suddenly smoke a joint at her apt. If someone talked me into going out when I didn't want to first I'd be hesitant and uncomfortable being with someone I never usually hung out with. If the person I went with left me with strangers (loud busy bar, you're not going to have much conversation aside from yelling at each other) I'd say I'm outta here, especially if I were tired. And maybe the bar tender told her no more (they do today under law if a person is too drunk).

Yes, you'd think she'd tell her ride she was leaving, but maybe she couldn't find her or felt LA was too drunk to talk to.

On a separate note, seems to me I read LA drove 2 friends home. Were they the same two and if so did they leave their car there? Maybe because they were drunk.

I can see DW might have felt confused, tired, and maybe angry at her friend for leaving her with strangers. I know the old document says she hooked up (was it Barbados?) with a guy she hardly knew but was that after working a 12 hr shift?

She reportedly told a friend, something like, 'im finally free!!!!'.. so yes, definitely her wishes to break up with CV, or at least according to what she told to others.. who knows if that was accurate.. and who knows what the reasoning was (if he had screwed around on her, she may have felt the need to 'validate' herself as attractive to other men?).. why did DW phone CV on the 19th? Did she ask him to come?? Did he say 'maybe after work'?? Did he then actually show up after work?? So many questions.

Perhaps DW preferred the company of men socially, rather than women, who she was okay to work with??

LA stated in testimony this week (can't remember which day) that she drove home alone. She didn't drive her friends home.

She very well *may* have drank while pregnant.. drinking was a lot free-er back then. FAS, even though it had been discovered, was sure not well known.. and I don't think that DW's pregnancy was a pregnancy that she wanted to come to term anyway.. not sure if DW was preg at the time of her death, or if that was an earlier event.

And yes, whether it was her choice or not, to break up with CV, and whether the reason was him screwing around or not, she still could have felt the need to not drown her sorrows, but pick herself up, by engaging in a one-night-stand with someone. RB seemed to have no difficulties in getting women, so perhaps he was actually likeable or something?

I'm not sure if back in that day, bartenders would refuse to sell alcohol to young women in the bar.. and even if so, it would have been easy for her to get someone else to order it on her behalf, if she'd wanted to.

The 'singles party' that was mentioned.. I was confused as to which weekend it was supposed to occur on.. that weekend or the following weekend.

The Barbados(?) thing was another one of those things that RB wasn't allowed to bring up in his defence, to show that it would not be totally alien for DW to engage in sex with a stranger. I feel that is so unfair. Not to lay blame and make DW come across like some kind of tramp, but just to show that it WAS in fact a possibility for her specifically.

 

[Claroon]

Imo, there is only 1 BM, the one that Lori knew of was one and the same. For some reason she didn't know or remember that BM went to the same highschool as herself (Saltfleet). But at the time of DW's murder, BM was 18 years old, while Lori was 22 years old (she was a year younger than DW who was turning 24 2 days after her murder). That would make it entirely possible that the two did not attend the same highschool at the same TIME, considering their age gap is 4-5 years. It is also entirely possible that Lori had never asked BM his age, and she just thought/assumed he was around the same.

Tweets from Oct 18th:
SC:

LH:


ETA: how do we know that RB knew BM?

Good points. Yes if he was younger she wouldn't have crossed paths at high school. From my notes (don't ask me where I found it, please, lol) I have:

lived in the same building at Diane #Werendowicz, graduated from Saltfleet 1980,

as for your other question, I have to retrace that.

 

[Claroon]

just wondering.. from Oct 18th tweets by LH..

-DW's friend Lori was on the stand testifying.

-She said she had brought DW to Malarkeys.. that Lori knew lots of people there that night, she thought she'd intro'd them to DW, and when her 2 other friends arrived, she left DW with them, and went to chat with other friends in the bar, saying it was the last time she had seen DW that night, and tht it was around 11pm.

-DW spent the remainder of her time there alone with the 2 friends of Lori's, who she hadn't ever met prior to that night..

-Lori noted that she had parked behind the mall, near the door closest to Malarkeys.

-From that, I am getting that to park in the rear of the mall would actually make sense, if one was going to Malarkeys.

-When DW decided to leave, it was around one hour after she had last seen her friend.. she didn't say goodnight to her.. was it because she couldn't see her/find her? Or was DW p!$$ed that her friend had just dumped her with people she didn't know and went off to flit with her friends?

-When DW left Malarkey's to go home, wherever the 'rear' of the mall is (it is not obvious from googlemaps, since there are several sides to the mall, and another building within the parking lot, which, if malarkey's was in *that* building, the rear of that lot would be the front of the other lot), it sounds like it is in the area closest to the door to the bar.. in any case, did she perhaps have a look to see if her friend, Lori's car was still parked in the lot/same place? That would make sense if she hadn't seen her friend there for the last hour, she would have been wondering perhaps if she had left and gone home herself?.. and then she ended up meeting up with RB.

-'They' make it sound like some really creepy, stalky thing that RB had parked in the 'back', and further, that DW wouldn't have gone around to the back, etc.. but according to Lori, that was where the door closest to the bar was actually located, and it is also where she herself had parked, so doesn't sound like so creepy afterall, does it?

-Interesting how 'they' can present information in such a negative, accusing, creep light in regard to the accused to those who probably wouldn't be aware of such subtleties (the jury), but yet the accused is not allowed to present evidence in regard to DW's boyfriend whose semen was found in her panties that night, even though he stated he hadn't seen her for a week. (!!!!)

I found the article arguing which door she would exit:

Crown prosecutor Jim Vincelli urged an Ontario Superior Court jury to place the guilt for the murder where it properly belongs.

“Guilt for the rape and death of Dianne Werendowicz lies with Robert Badgerow and no one else,” Vincelli said in his closing argument to the seven-man, five-woman jury chosen for Badgerow’s third trial, which has been hearing the case for 12 weeks.

Vincelli said the evidence points to one clear fact: Werendowicz left Malarky’s alone.

But which way did she exit the bar? Did she go out the front doors closest to Queenston Road for the short walk to her Jerome Crescent apartment?

“Or does she go to the right and exit to the rear parking area, where she has absolutely no reason to go? What does your common sense tell you?

“A woman who had just finished three, 12-hour shifts picks the longest route or the shortest route to go home?” Vincelli quizzed the jurors.

http://www.therecord.com/news-story...sex-in-the-car-scenario-called-pure-fiction-/

 

[Claroon]

ETA: how do we know that RB knew BM?
Last edited by deugirtni; Today at 05:13 AM. Reason: eta

I am wondering if I made that assumption that may not be the case.

 

[Claroon]

LA stated in testimony this week (can't remember which day) that she drove home alone. She didn't drive her friends home.
.

My correction it was Smith that drove friends home --

That is in Smith's statement. Introduced her to Steve Langdon and Gary McKay.
She gave a statement about Friday night with Diane. Time of statement noted as 11:35 a.m.. She read it and signed it.

Police asked if she was with Diane Friday night. Then told her she was dead. Smith was shocked, sad. She went to Kenilworth station.
‏
She drove two friends home. She doesn't remember what she did Saturday. On Sunday morning, two uniformed cops knocked on her door.