CANADA Canada - Elizabeth Bain, 22, Scarborough Ont, 19 June 1990 #1

[eyesonly]

The police were notified Wednesday morning she was
missing weren't they? And given a full description of her
and her vehicle.
Ok, I see what you are saying woodland. Still guy
would have some big cahonas to take her car out
again. Imo

 

[Woodland]

True - but LE did not find the car, while employee(s) of 3R saw it there. Thinking the guy might have risked retrieving it Thursday night (after driving by and seeing it still at 3R) - only thinking this possibility due to the fresh blood in it on Friday. Taking the car Thursday night would have been very risky, if not dumb, especially if he left those 'fingers' in full view. If the car was gone, maybe he had a plan B.

 

[eyesonly]

We will need to get a better professional opinion of the blood
as in the book excerpt I posted the top part was dried
or crusty but when he cut that little piece out it dripped
from underneath and hadn't congealed.
We need to know if it's possible to be in that state
if it were there tues night or can it only be thurs.

 

[Snively]

If DD's witness statement is correct then her car is on Hwy. 7 waiting to turn north onto Hwy. 12. That goes with my idea to look at Muskoka Woods but if the time was right (and that does make sense that's accurate) then I have one question. I thought DD was on his way TO work which was in Maple which would then have them traveling WEST on Hwy. 7 so that EB's car would be in the left turn lane heading south towards Scarborough. This makes sense tying in with the sighting at Haugen's. This is the opposite that is written in the book. This description also has the car not coming from Port Perry but actually from the west and driving east and making a left onto Hwy. 12 and heading north. It was in the morning but I don't recall the exact time, but if the car was heading south to Scarborough they would probably have enough time to get to Scarborough before 3r opened.

If the book has the directions written backwards that makes sense. I'm pretty sure DD said they were on their way IN to work in Maple which would have them traveling west and the car turning south on Hwy. 12. I think the writer of the book just has the directions mixed up. The fact DD was going in to work in Maple is important since that would also place her car coming out of Port Perry.

 

[Snively]

The one thing I always wondered about the witness who says she her car in front of 3r and the guy on the 401, is that every other witness distinctly remembers the plastic fingers on the door but neither of these two do that.

 

[kemo]

I've spent the last 4 hours getting up to speed on this case. Some observations:

1) Minimal bleeding occurs after death. It seem that there was so much blood behind the driver's seat that EB must have died in the back seat of the car. The injury could have occurred elsewhere but that is where the death occurred.

2)Considering the amount of blood, weather conditions and the fact that all windows were closed, a competent forensic examiner should be able to tell, with a high degree of confidence, whether the bleeding occurred on Tues evening or Thursday morning. The scenario where EB is "held" alive until Thus AM, taken alive, to her car park near the Auto body, transferred, still alive to her own car, murdered at some point in the back seat of the car, and transported to the planned dump site and then returning to the exact spot and park the car in the same manner MAKES NO SENSE. I think it is almost certain that she was killed and dumped Tuesday night. The assailant returned her car to the Auto body because his own car was parked nearby.

3)Witness accounts by passerby/bystanders who come forward in high profile cases must be viewed with scepticism. People make stuff up, exaggerate, embellish for any number of reasons. They require skillful interrogation and often experienced officers misjudge the credibility of a witness. This is where "hold back" information is vital. Did the public know the color of EB's car or the existence of the plastic fingers? If this was "held back" but the witness knew of that detail, it would greatly enhance their credibility.

4)A high profile investigation get dozen or even hundreds of "witness sightings". Most are written off as unreliable right off the bat. Once a suspect is identified or the case is handed over to the Prosecutor, witnesses who confirm the "theory of crime" can be brought back and used to support the case while witnesses who are equally credible but whose testimony would conflict with "theory" are forgotten.

5)It seems that the case was made, without a body and without much in the way of forensic evidence . The case was made pretty much on a chain of witness accounts that seem to have been pretty easy to shake. It would appear that the defense should have had it's own forensic analysis of the blood evidence. If makes me wonder if the defense did a competent job at all.

 

[eyesonly]

Snively, great catch on the direction of the port perry sighting. The " east " direction was my words
and definitely wrong. I was setting up the scenario prior to the book quote and it is
definitely west they were travelling.
Crap, hope I never get lost in the woods, with a compass I'd be screwed lol

 

[Woodland]

If EB's car was used on the Thursday night, and it is a big if, I don't think she would have been brought to the car. I think the car would have been brought to her.

The only way to feel comfortable driving a car that should have been reported stolen 2 days prior is to - switch the plates. That should have been ruled in or out though during the forensic exam of the car.

On the forensic analysis of the blood - there should be more than the handwritten note Raybould hid regarding a meeting with CFS to discuss how long that blood was in the car. There should be a report somewhere (2 if the defense were on top of their game) and it/they should have been introduced at trial as a matter of importance or at least routine.

 

[eyesonly]

RB's lawyers were definitely out matched. if memory serves me correct, they were like friends of the family somehow, or friends of a family member. something like that, it was their first murder trial. definitely out matched. RB really had no chance.

401 witness part in the book when he called the number on the flyer and it was EB's house number and they asked him to come over and tell them his story.

"One of the sons, he was about nineteen or twenty, was there when i was talking about how fast the car was running. The young B (surname) said that he had done a tune-up on the car and that it had been working very well. He also asked me if i had seen the fingers on the door. And i told them i did remember seeing something like fingers at high speed."

the one thing about this sighting that makes it important imo, is that this is the sighting the detectives hid from everyone, the defense was never privy to this sighting, yet they got all the others that were impossible to have happened.
and it's clear that they hid this sighting because it co-oberates the 3r sighting in everyway, the timing, the actions in the car, and a male driver in EB's car and her in the passenger seat.
one witness sighting is easy for the crown to decimate, but 2 sighting co-oberating each other at a time when their only suspect is known to be in the gym working out with witness's well that would blow their whole case against RB. i'm not sure if the crown knew about the sighting or not.
and this was no accident because the 401 witness showed up at the courthouse and Mr. B told him he wasn't needed and the detective told him the same thing, so he didn't pursue it, felt he went as far as he could in his civic duty.
so even if someone says they forgot to forward the sighting, him being there definitely reminded them, and they still did nothing.

we have to keep in mind that this was 1990, information wasn't at a fingertip disposal for everyone like today, not everyone had home computers, not even sure what the cell phone technology was back this, not everyone had them like today that's for sure. there wasn't all the csi shows and reality cop shows we have today, dna was in it's infancy, and we all still believed the cops didn't make mistakes, when they arrested somebody he must be the guilty party, no way would the police knowingly arrest an innocent man, well we know better now a days.

 

[eyesonly]

401 witness, part of excerpt from book, from taped verbal statement at RB's investigators office in 1996. he saw news article about the appeal and called the reporter who wrote it, and reporter put him on to the investigator right away.

"So in my rear-view mirror i saw a toyota, a small silver tercel, come right up to within a few inches of my back bumper and then brake heavily and recede and then it came back up again, hit the brakes and backed off. i said to myself, what is wrong with this guy? you don't do that sort of stuff in this kind of traffic. i then looked in the rear-view mirror to see what was up with the chap and saw that the guy driving was quite big in size. he was so big that his head was right up into the roof of the car and his shoulders were quite broad. next to him was a girl, and there was a fight going on between her and this guy. so i said to myself, what the hell is this guy doing? fighting with a girl on the 401 at this speed. i slowed back a bit and he swung out and passed me on the right in the middle lane of the highway. as they came up alongside, i could see that he was punching at her, and she was hitting him back. and i said, holy smoke, a big guy like that beating up a little girl. it looked as though it was getting pretty wild.
so what i decided to do was get on the other side of them, meaning into the slowest lane, alongside the passenger side of the car in order to see more clearly what was going on. once i'd manoeuvered myself so that my window was a few feet from the passenger window to the tercel, i turned my head and
saw the girl screaming, her mouth wide open her hands up like this against the window. screaming. i signalled to her to wind down her window, and then i rolled mine down all the way. i had to keep an eye on the traffic, though, because their car veered towards my car, which was a 1990 chev cavalier, only four months old, and i wasn't going to have it damaged for anything. when i turned my head again to see if she had wound her window down, she was out of sight, completely. it was only him there. so i said what the heck happened? and then he accelerated and got into the fast lane, on the far left. the traffic in front of me was kind of tight, so i waited for an opening and eventually caught up to him. but when i did, i saw the girl lying on his sholder with his arm around her, like she was making up to him as he drove. they're having a fight on the 401, i said to myself. and now they're lovey-dovey. i'm looking at this and it's safe to say that i'm thoroughly pissed off. i really wanted to speak to this guy in a very sharp tongue. i tried to keep his car in sight so as to finally get alongside of him to tell him off. but the traffic in my lane was moving while his seemed to be slowing down and he fell behind. i was constantly checking my mirrors to see when he was going to catch up. but pretty soon we were approaching ajax, and he didn't seem to be around at all. like the car disappeared. i'd actually slowed down to about seventy clicks in the slow lane. i was going so slow i pulled off to the side of the highway and waited for him, but he did not appear, the car did not appear..
the whole incident had shaken me up so badly that, when i got into oshawa, i didn't bother going into work. instead, i went to the o'toole's bar at taunton and simcoe street, which i frequented back then. i bought a beer and saw one of the regulars there, a big german guy named GH. he was a stonemason. anyway, he was there ans so was the bartender, a lady named D. she might still be working there. now, i got in there and said "you wouldn't believe what i just saw on the 401". and i told them the whole story.

 

[eyesonly]

kemo, all very well put. in response to your points.
1. yep, agree
2. yep, agree, however tend to keep all scenarios open till factual evidence can remove it.
3. yep, and yes description of car and picture of car were on the flyer, with the fingers.
4. yep, and unfortunately this can be a cause that aides in wrongful convictions as well
5. yep, defense's 1st murder trial i believe.

 

[Woodland]

Imo, the problem with verifying the 401 guy and the pedestrian both reporting seeing a man and woman arguing in a silver car is, weeks later they are pinpointing the exact date they saw this, when the info was already out. However, LE and the Crown had a duty to report this to the defense - no ifs, ands or buts about it.

401 guy - has a new car he doesn't want to damage for any reason, yet he takes part in a high speed Bruce Willis type chase on the 401, weaving in and out of traffic and rolling down his window trying to speak to someone in another vehicle at 80+ kms per hour. Then he pulls over after the Brock St exit - why after? If he was trying to get behind them again he already blew it as the cars are whizzing by at high speeds, including the one he wants to catch up with, and he's at a standstill. Plus, for all he knew, this vehicle was heading to the Quebec border.

All he needed was the plate number, which it doesn't seem he obtained. Did the pedestrian get a plate number?

 

[Snively]

I think the guy did get the plate number (5 of 6 I believe). The problem was this information was readily available on flyers for people to come forward with information.

 

[eyesonly]

So are you guys saying, just to be clear, iyo that the 401 witness
made the whole thing up.

 

[Woodland]

I think the 401 witness made his story up.

Just can't see/hear anything that rings true, unfortunately.

 

[eyesonly]

so he went to O'tooles that night and related the whole story to a bartender, which didn't really happen, but just happened to be on the
same night liz went missing.
the bartender backs up that he did come in and relate that story when she was interviewed by the investigators, so then she is telling the truth,
or playing a part in the guys fantasy?
when he was at EB's house telling them the story, Mr or Mrs B. told him RB was downstairs and could they get him for him to see if he was the driver,
and he said no, he didn't want anything to impair his judgement when he talked to the police if he had to look a photo line-up.
it's a fact he was at their house, so he took a day off work to get this reported, and the number was for the victims families home which he went to,
to relate a story of possibly seeing their missing daughter, yet it was all a lie, a made up story.
then he went to the police and gave a 7 page statement, and offered to take a lie detector test, and hypnosis, which the police said no to, and the lie detector test he would have taken would be what, just to prove he was telling a tall tale.
then he sees that they are trying to convict RB of killing EB before 7pm and he goes down to the courts and asks Mr. Bain and one of the lead Detectives,
if they were going to use him, so he could tell a lie on the stand
then 7 yrs later he sees an article about the appeal, and gets put in touch with RB's investigator and he relates the same story from 7 yrs
earlier, then one of the investigators in the firm travel with him right then to his storage unit to find the statement police took 7yrs earlier, they spend an hour
going through a bunch of boxes, with the storage security or manager watching over their shoulder cause he owed them money for the unit, they find the
7 page statement, signed by one of the 2 lead detectives, describing the story he just verbally told from memory.
and then we learn that the police never gave this report over to the defense but gave many many more that had no chance of being valid.

and all this to promote a story he made up that never really happened?

well that's your opinions, and fully respected.
however it seems a bit far fetched for it not to be valid, but that's jmo.

 

[kemo]

I'm trying to get a handle on the 2 "EG's" and whatever role they may have played in EB's disappearance.

EG#1 was a good friend of RB who went with him to the gym to speak with people who may have seen RB there Tue evening and help "shore up" RB's alibi.

EG#2 was a guy EB mentioned in her diary as someone she met "on the sly". EB wrote that they "walked around hand in hand". EB told RB some kind of story to explain away her absence that day. RB did not not know him then. RB later learned about his existence during the investigation. Apparently Saw somebody at EB's 7:00 who appeared to be waiting for someone at the same time he was waiting for EB. He later concluded that it was EG#2.

First, is the above correct?

I would assume that EB#2 denies meeting with EB that night, sitting with her at the tennis courts and having anything to do with her disappearance. Does anyone know if he had an alibi or was "officially" ruled out as a suspect?
Was he really at EB's class that night? (that would essentially alibi both him and RB)
What does he look like, blond?
Was there anyone else she was having any kind of "dalliance" with? Did her friends and her sister deny that there was anyone else she was "interested in"?

I am interested in him both as a possible suspect but also as an important witness as to what EB was up to and what sort of a relationship she might be having with whoever she was meeting with that afternoon (who very likely killed her). She appears to have used some deceit to her mother to go to the tennis courts. Some kind of meeting with someone she didn't want her mother to know about. Someone not mentioned in her diary. We can't be sure she actually met that person by she ended with someone in her car who killed her (I am assuming she was killed in her car; it is very unlikely someone caused her to bleed and then put her into the car). If the witnesses are to be believed, she let this person drive her car. Was this some mystery lover she kept secret from the world was this prospective new Boy Friend she was checking out?

I am inclined to doubt RB was involved but I can't see an obvious explanation for what was going on with her and the guy who did kill her.

 

[Snively]

FYI

4 key witnesses may lead to Bain's killer, police hope: [FIN Edition]
John Duncanson Toronto Star. Toronto Star [Toronto, Ont] 26 Sep 1990: A6.
Abstract (summary)

They believe Spinner, the cabbie, was driving around the Scarborough campus the night [Elizabeth Bain] disappeared. [Steve Reesor] said the driver may have seen who Bain was last with that night, but may be reluctant to come forward.

* A woman in her 50s with graying hair who was seen with Bain in her car June 19 around 2.30 p.m. near Lawrence Ave. E. and Morningside Ave. Police believe the woman may have known Bain's plans for that day, which could have included a meeting with the person who killed her.

* A woman who gave the name of Julie Smith to police. When police went to Bowmanville to look for the woman, they found no such person existed. Detectives said she called police to say she saw Bain with a man on the campus the night she disappeared. Detectives would like to talk to the woman again.

Full Text

By John DuncansonTORONTO STAR

A cab driver nicknamed "Spinner" and a witness who saw a man park Elizabeth Bain's car the morning she disappeared may lead police to her killer, detectives say.

But Metro police have been unable to locate these key witnesses, or two others, since Bain disappeared. The 22-year-old sociology and psychology student was last seen June 19 on the Scarborough campus of the University of Toronto.

Detective Sergeant Steve Reesor said it's a "race against time" to find Bain's body before the winter sets in.

But Reesor, who heads the investigation, said he is confident his team will find her remains and arrest a murder suspect.

"Since I've been in the (homicide) squad, we've had three women go missing and their bodies have been recovered within 10 months," he said.

Yesterday, police appealed for four people to come forward.

They believe Spinner, the cabbie, was driving around the Scarborough campus the night Bain disappeared. Reesor said the driver may have seen who Bain was last with that night, but may be reluctant to come forward.

Bain was last seen about 6 p.m., sitting on a picnic table near the campus tennis courts. Her boyfriend, Rob Baltovich, told police he saw her car parked in a lot on Old Kingston Rd., east of Manse Rd., about 45 minutes later.

Three days later, her car was found abandoned on Morrish Rd. in Scarborough, about a kilometre from her home. A pool of her blood was found on the car's floor.

Police also say they have information that someone saw a man who may be the killer park Bain's 1981 Toyota Tercel on Morrish Rd., just north of Kingston Rd., the morning after she went missing.

But police won't release a description of the witness or say why they feel someone saw a man park her car.

Detectives also want to talk to:

* A woman in her 50s with graying hair who was seen with Bain in her car June 19 around 2.30 p.m. near Lawrence Ave. E. and Morningside Ave. Police believe the woman may have known Bain's plans for that day, which could have included a meeting with the person who killed her.

* A woman who gave the name of Julie Smith to police. When police went to Bowmanville to look for the woman, they found no such person existed. Detectives said she called police to say she saw Bain with a man on the campus the night she disappeared. Detectives would like to talk to the woman again.

 

[Snively]

Elizabeth Bain knew killer: Police: [FIN Edition]
John Duncanson TORONTO STAR. Toronto Star [Toronto, Ont] 15 Nov 1990: A1.

Abstract (summary)

Metro police strongly suspect that [Elizabeth Bain], a University of Toronto student missing since June 19, was murdered by someone she knew.

[Steve Reesor] refused to say how Bain was killed but The Star has learned that she was killed by a hard object such as a rock, outside her car.

Bain, 23, a student at the University of Toronto, disappeared June 19. She was last seen by a friend near a picnic bench on the Scarborough campus.

Full Text

Metro police strongly suspect that Elizabeth Bain, a University of Toronto student missing since June 19, was murdered by someone she knew.

Detective Sergeant Steve Reesor, in charge of the investigation into her disappearance, confirmed today for the first time that police are treating it as a murder case.

Although her body has not been found, Reesor said DNA tests on blood found in her car have shown that it was hers and that she was slain.

Reesor refused to say how Bain was killed but The Star has learned that she was killed by a hard object such as a rock, outside her car.

Her body was likely then put in the car and removed from the scene of the killing.

Sources told The Star that blood found in the vehicle contained brain matter in such quantity that Bain could not have survived.

The identification of the blood was done by analysis of its genetic make-up, tests using highly sophisticated equipment that only recently became available for use by police in Ontario.

Homicide detectives are not releasing a psychological profile of the killer prepared by experts at the U.S. Federal Bureau of Investigation in Quantico, Va. Such profiles have proved to be highly accurate in other murder cases.

Bain, 23, a student at the University of Toronto, disappeared June 19. She was last seen by a friend near a picnic bench on the Scarborough campus.

Three days later, her bloodstained 1981 Toyota Tercel was found parked on Morrish Rd. near Kingston Rd.

Hundreds of volunteers have scoured ravines, creeks and parks in Metro's east end but so far have not turned up any clues to her disappearance.

 

[Snively]

The hunt for Elizabeth Bain's body is to be concentrated on the shores of Lake Scugog because of new information obtained by her parents.: [FIN Edition]
Toronto Star [Toronto, Ont] 30 Nov 1990: A10.

Abstract (summary)

Detective Sergeant Brian Raybould, a Metro homicide investigator on the Bain case, confirmed the family is on the right track to concentrate the search in the sandy areas of the shore of Lake Scugog, north of Oshawa.

Full Text

Note

"We have reasons to concentrate in sandy areas on the shores of Lake Scugog, in the deeper parts of the shallow lake and in some of the stagnant pools around the lake," Rick Bain said in an interview.

Detective Sergeant Brian Raybould, a Metro homicide investigator on the Bain case, confirmed the family is on the right track to concentrate the search in the sandy areas of the shore of Lake Scugog, north of Oshawa.

Rob Baltovitch, 25, of Midland Ave., Scarborough, was charged Nov. 19 with first-degree murder.

Tomorrow and Sunday, volunteers are asked to meet at the Port Perry United Church at the corner of Simcoe and Queen Sts. in Port Perry at 9.30 a.m. Anyone needing a ride from Metro or further information is asked to call 284-8492.

Does anybody know what the information obtained pointing to Lake Scugog was?