CANADA Canada - Elizabeth Bain, 22, Scarborough Ont, 19 June 1990 #1

[Woodland]

The people that saw RB that night interacted with him - all stuck with what the interaction was. Some went on to change the time or what he was wearing - but not the interaction.

Those that claim to have seen EB only claim to have seen her - mostly strangers. No interaction - other than her mother asking her to get milk. That no one saw.

Why was the first search organized and conducted based solely on what RB said about EB's car being in a particular lot? Did LE think he was leading them right to the spot where he killed her? Their lucky break? One would think a killer would try to lead LE in a different direction, no?

Have no idea what happened to EB that day, nor could I guess what time something may have happened. I do think whatever happened, happened before RB saw her car at 6:45 pm.

 

[eyesonly]

an interesting development with mp tennis instructor, kinda shows her personality and integrity and maybe her sighting in liz's case should be called into question and possibly eliminated. thoughts?

http://www.mykawartha.com/news-stor...ons-with-accused-prior-to-murder-court-hears/

https://www.google.com/search?q=mar...me&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8#q=marianne+perz&tbm=nws

 

[Woodland]

Very interesting find eyesonly. So MP was hanging out and having an affair with someone on trial for murder, at some point preceding the murder she paid someone to beat up 4 people, and was present at the time of the murder. Surely we've all been there at some point in our lives?

Chuckles, I didn't need this to persuade me that the odds MP was looking for attention in 1990 were greater than she wasn't looking for attention - it will be interesting to see what others think.

I like the line in the 'My Kawartha' article - (paraphrasing on witness statement) he sometimes helped MP with gardening and once took MP to the hospital to have a baby. So nonchalant, as in having a baby is an everyday occurrence.

 

[Woodland]

Many people came forward, after media articles, to say they saw EB that day - many we would not hear about if not for the book 'No Claim To Mercy'. The names are in the book, so the author must have had access to disclosure docs from LE.

EB didn't speak a single word that day to anyone claiming to see her, not even her mother or sister relates anything EB said, however brief those words might have been.

Yet RB, who claims he didn't see her that day, does say he spoke to her on the phone at 11:15 am and relates that conversation.

 

[Snively]

Do you also discount any of the witnesses who saw RB that night? Considering he was a suspect and subsequently charged, wouldn't they have a reason to lie for him?

What's your theory as to where she was from 10:00 am on the 19th onward?

 

[Woodland]

I already answered your post #625 Snively - you asked the same things already in post #620. Interaction vs no interaction. Sticking with the interaction story vs changing the story to no interaction.

What's with EB not uttering a word to anyone on 19 June 1990 - the last day she was thought to be alive? Not so much as a wave to MP. If MP had said EB waved, after not seeing her for a year or more, I would have given an ounce of leeway - out of a pound.

 

[Snively]

While Finkle's book is good you have to remember that some people were very keen on talking to the author (RB) while others were not (police, the Bains and others). Most information was obtained through Finkle's access to information request for as much information as he could get. When he did get the information he did use what he could and did follow up to try to verify what he could by talking to the witness in question.

But, and it is a big but, many witnesses would not discuss anything with him. Many of the conversations and recounted information comes from the mouth of RB and a lot of that information is disputed through testimony from the trial. And in the case of one conversation recounted in the book, I can tell you that the conversation that RB said occurred never did happen as I was there.

Mr. Finkle does try to leave it up to the reader to decide which is fair but he did have an agenda and other reporters (especially one who is now with The Post and two from The Toronto Star) who covered the case from start to finish questioned a lot of information and in particular the conclusions that Mr. Finkle came to that Bernardo was involved.

 

[SecretSource]

The decision to search the UTSC valley was only made after the car was found on Friday, June 22nd, 1990 - not before. Up until that time, the case was not even a suspected homicide but a missing person case where foul play was not suspected. Logically, there wouldn't have been any reason to search the valley before Friday given that the operating assumption would likely have been, "When we find the car, we'll find her." Until the car was found in the vicinity of UTSC with blood in the back seat area, all the police had was an alleged sighting by her boyfriend, a missing and clearly depressed and distraught young woman, a veiled reference to suicide found in the last page in her diary and a car that hadn't yet been located or seen by anyone and which could have been anywhere, hence the bulletin sent to all police forces in southern Ontario. Indeed, one could also reasonably argue that given all of the above, without the blood found in the car this case might never have become a homicide investigation at all; after all, homicide wasn't called in until blood was found in the car. It is also curious that anyone close to EB and the investigation would have known of her past suicidal references and half-hearted attempts at suicide and would have been very well-served in ensuring no blood got in the car so as the create the impression EB has simply ran away; however, the opposite happened and it appears the culprit made little or no attempt to conceal the fact that a bleeding body had been placed in the car. Perhaps because they didn't know her that well?

 

[Woodland]

Au contraire - page 243 through 256 - 9 witnesses speaking to the author with their point of view - mostly on the conduct and their interaction with RnR.

One of my favorites - page 250 - witness KM.
'I found that they (speaking freely about RnR to the author) would say things to make you answer the way they wanted you to. For example, they told my father that they thought Rob was a serial killer, and because I had brown curly hair and a nice smile, I was probably going to be his next victim. They said, 'All serial killers have to start somewhere'.'

I can't tell you how many times I have had to put the book down and walk outside to cool off and choose other chores to take care of - which could wait btw. It accounts for how long it is taking me to read it. Effing ridiculous - makes me ashamed to be an Ontarian.

And yes, Finkle is letting me make up my own mind, which is - most or all of the Bain family knows exactly what happened to daughter Liz (so far the author has not said this to the reader). Jmhfo. Who goes grocery shopping after reporting their daughter missing? Who has the energy to finish a driveway project when their daughter is missing? Why was it necessary to start and finish the driveway project when Mr Bain was in Florida - 1 or 2 days before his return?

RB ran around campus looking for EB immediately after the missing report was given to TPS - why didn't mom join him? I assure you I would if my daughter missing.

 

[Woodland]

The decision to search the UTSC valley was only made after the car was found on Friday, June 22nd, 1990 - not before. Up until that time, the case was not even a suspected homicide but a missing person case where foul play was not suspected. Logically, there wouldn't have been any reason to search the valley before Friday given that the operating assumption would likely have been, "When we find the car, we'll find her." Until the car was found in the vicinity of UTSC with blood in the back seat area, all the police had was an alleged sighting by her boyfriend, a missing and clearly depressed and distraught young woman, a veiled reference to suicide found in the last page in her diary and a car that hadn't yet been located or seen by anyone and which could have been anywhere, hence the bulletin sent to all police forces in southern Ontario. Indeed, one could also reasonably argue that given all of the above, without the blood found in the car this case might never have become a homicide investigation at all; after all, homicide wasn't called in until blood was found in the car. It is also curious that anyone close to EB and the investigation would have known of her past suicidal references and half-hearted attempts at suicide and would have been very well-served in ensuring no blood got in the car so as the create the impression EB has simply ran away; however, the opposite happened and it appears the culprit made little or no attempt to conceal the fact that a bleeding body had been placed in the car. Perhaps because they didn't know her that well?

No freaking way - jmo. That search got underway early in the morning of Sat 23 June - LE was organizing the search before the car was found, due to protocol at the time, and put the call out to the media on 22 June at about the time the car was found - which was about 2:00 pm. The family knew this and lo and behold, a family member found the car.

No way can you convince me that after 2:00 pm LE 'started' to think about a search and then put the call out for help the next morning. And LE chose the park because it was close to where the car was found? Had nothing to do with RB's info? With all due respect, good luck with that.

The only one close to EB that took the suicide attempts seriously was RB - her family very much denies it was a problem. There is no mention EB ever received help for this, so cannot understand you speaking to how the family thought over a long period of time.

 

[Woodland]

Page 108 - morning of 22 June 1990. Det Tony Warr had someone call RB and ask him to come to the police station at 1:30 pm. RB complied.

After the meeting Warr had no idea what could have happened - 'but after 3 days the force's procedures regarding missing persons, it was time to step up the investigation to Phase Three. This phase involved an all out search, including full police search teams, canine tracking units and, with the help of a media blitz, a good number of civilian volunteers'.

The car was found after that.

The canine units found no evidence of blood.

 

[SecretSource]

Woodside, please read my post again as I suspect that having read through it quickly you may have misunderstood some things. I have read all of your posts and I agree with you on almost everything you have written thus far re what you think happened; however, as regards the search on June 22nd, 1990 consider this:

You are correct that the search got underway early in the morning of Sat 23 June but the police did not begin organizing any search of the type and scale that was executed on that Saturday until after the car was found at roughly 2:30 PM; this is a fact and try as you might you will not find any evidence contradicting this. The wide-scale search of the valley was not arranged until after the car was found because the police simply had no reason to look for a body when they didn't yet believe that EB was dead and her car was nowhere to be found. It is true that RB and other family members had searched the valley on their own on the 20th and 21st - EB's father and RB together on one occasion - but the police had only performed a cursory search of the area of south of Old Kingston Rd. without - as they testified - cadaver dogs with them. Why? Because even though RB had correctly told the police that he had seen the car at 6:45 - 7:15 PM the car was missing and would have been presumably been being driven by EB herself. Also keep in mind that Sgt. Paul Martin told EB's family when he took the official missing person's report at their home that he didn't see any reason to suspect foul play and absolutely nothing had changed until the car was found.

Yes, EB;s family denied then and still denies the suicide issue was live at the time but both MB's girlfriend and EB's father testified that they were aware of Liz's suicidal ideations; and, unbeknownst to most people, the 458 pages of diary pages that were undisclosed until 2004 contained many additional references to suicide well before EB and RB had met. You are absolutely correct that RB and only RB was willing to do something about the threats but when her family denies it was a problem, they are simply saving face and they would have every reason to do so as no family would want to admit that a) they daughter thought about such things; and b) that she could have killed herself. As it happens, the suicide angle is now off the table and EB was murdered; of that we can be almost certain.

 

[Woodland]

In case it isn't clear, Det Warr was on site when the car was found after his meeting with RB. As posted previously, RB also showed up after the car was found.

When the car was found by brother P, the meeting between Warr and RB was over and the plan for a media search blitz was in progress.

I'm taking notes as I read for easy reference, fwiw.

 

[Woodland]

Woodside, please read my post again as I suspect that having read through it quickly you may have misunderstood some things. I have read all of your posts and I agree with you on almost everything you have written thus far re what you think happened; however, as regards the search on June 22nd, 1990 consider this:

You are correct that the search got underway early in the morning of Sat 23 June but the police did not begin organizing any search of the type and scale that was executed on that Saturday until after the car was found at roughly 2:30 PM; this is a fact and try as you might you will not find any evidence contradicting this. The wide-scale search of the valley was not arranged until after the car was found because the police simply had no reason to look for a body when they didn't yet believe that EB was dead and her car was nowhere to be found. It is true that RB and other family members had searched the valley on their own on the 20th and 21st - EB's father and RB together on one occasion - but the police had only performed a cursory search of the area of south of Old Kingston Rd. without - as they testified - cadaver dogs with them. Why? Because even though RB had correctly told the police that he had seen the car at 6:45 - 7:15 PM the car was missing and would have been presumably been being driven by EB herself. Also keep in mind that Sgt. Paul Martin told EB's family when he took the official missing person's report at their home that he didn't see any reason to suspect foul play and absolutely nothing had changed until the car was found.

Yes, EB;s family denied then and still denies the suicide issue was live at the time but both MB's girlfriend and EB's father testified that they were aware of Liz's suicidal ideations; and, unbeknownst to most people, the 458 pages of diary pages that were undisclosed until 2004 contained many additional references to suicide well before EB and RB had met. You are absolutely correct that RB and only RB was willing to do something about the threats but when her family denies it was a problem, they are simply saving face and they would have every reason to do so as no family would want to admit that a) they daughter thought about such things; and b) that she could have killed herself. As it happens, the suicide angle is now off the table and EB was murdered; of that we can be almost certain.

Woodside disagrees.

 

[SecretSource]

There remains no evidence absent Warr's claims - if he actually made them - that the search plans were made prior to the car being found; no documentation, no supplementary reports, nothing. DF was doing his best with what he had but I can assure you much more evidence has emerged subsequent to the publication of the book - and a new updated version of NCTM is being issued soon - and it was only when the police changed their theory to the "the body moved Friday" theory that they suddenly needed RB to know before Friday that the search was going to take place - that way he would have had a reason to move the body after leaving it in the valley for two days. There may be some evidence out there that shows that the Saturday search was organized prior to the car being found, but if it does exist it has never been entered into evidence and neither Warr nor any other witness claimed such a thing under oath. No Claim is a GREAT book but DF didn't get his hands on a LOT of evidence until well after it was published. He did the best that he could.

 

[Woodland]

There remains no evidence absent Warr's claims - if he actually made them - that the search plans were made prior to the car being found; no documentation, no supplementary reports, nothing.

Your opinion? Should be my opinion as well? How did this sequence of events come to be in the first book? No testimony regarding this?

The name of your book would be?

 

[eyesonly]

SECRETSOURCE:

Welcome to the forum. And your input is most welcome, thank you for
joining us it is much appreciated.

 

[kemo]

I haven't received my Copy of No Mercy yet so I feel a little out of the loop but I seriously doubt the Police would have organized a"serious" search of the park when EB had been missing only two days. In at least 99% of the time,when an adult goes missing along WITH their vehicle, there is no foul play involved. Find the vehicle, find the MP. When a vehicle is the normal mode of transportation and it is there, that when you really start to worry. Unless they had some information that isn't obvious to us, I can't see Det. Warr treating this any different than routine "runner" situation.

What the police do and what they say are two different things. If they had the slightest suspicion that RB, one of the family or anyone else, might have done something to EB in the park, they may have said they were going to do a search of the park just to see what kind of a rise it would get.

 

[Woodland]

From the TS archives, 25 June 1990.

Extensive searches of parks near the campus grounds by more than 100 people turned up no clues Saturday. Yesterday, police searched the southwest quadrant of the Scarborough campus.

Warr began the organization of a search before 2:00 pm on Friday, 22 June - shortly before EB's car was found. Time would have been needed to make the tv news.

We're talking protocol in 1990 - not today.

 

[eyesonly]

From the TS archives, 25 June 1990.

Extensive searches of parks near the campus grounds by more than 100 people turned up no clues Saturday. Yesterday, police searched the southwest quadrant of the Scarborough campus.

Warr began the organization of a search before 2:00 pm on Friday, 22 June - shortly before EB's car was found. Time would have been needed to make the tv news.

We're talking protocol in 1990 - not today.

The date on the archive is June 25th, the Saturday was the 23rd so when they say "yesterday" they meant
Sunday the 24th. Not Friday the 22nd. imo