CANADA Canada - Elizabeth Bain, 22, Scarborough Ont, 19 June 1990 #1

[SecretSource]

Hopefully secretsource will enlighten us more today on the accident. and how the info on the accident came to RB, because he didn't arrive in the area till 15 mins after it was cleared as per secretsource.

RB learned about the accident from his lawyers in 2004 when his lawyers were preparing for his appeal. Until shortly before his appeal which was originally scheduled in April of 2004 no one on RB's defence team had gained access to the police files but it came to their attention at that time. Neither RB nor his trials lawyers had any idea that the intersection leading into the valley east to west had effectively been closed off from 5:20 PM to 6:30 PM - wires were down and the traffic light not operating - nor was it ever disclosed by the Crown.

 

[SecretSource]

That is a bombshell revelation imo. Huge implications. Do you have any back-up for that? Not doubting it, just think it should have some verification here.

Did any member of the Bain family know MV prior to her coming forward?

I don't believe she was known to the Bain family but it is 100% correct that she was brought to the attention of the police by EB's father; another little known fact is that KN - who would ultimately claim that he saw RB in the weightroom that night much earlier than claimed - was also brought to the attention of the police by the Bain family; his mother was an acquaintance of EB's mother. EB's father had a hand in bringing many witnesses to the attention of the police that summer and this is why when the Crown realized shortly before RB's trial was set to start in 2008 that EB's father was prepared to commit perjury that the Crown had a HUGE problem on his hands; there would be a domino effect given that RB's defence could credibly argue that EB's father had contaminated each and every single witness he had come in contact with.

I'm not sure that the fact that MV first made contact with EB's father has huge implications but it is definitely 100% true; the police met her along with EB's father at St Joseph's Church in Highland Creek, right across from Three 'R' Autobody, one afternoon that summer.

 

[SecretSource]

The full extent of the testing of the blood is unknown but the meeting at CFS was for an hour and 45 minutes and the notes taken amount to less than a page; we may never know the full extent of what was exchanged. From RB's amended statement of claim, based on LE's notes:

(a) her body would not have lost blood in the quantity found in the car if the body had been left out for two to three days;
(b) the colour of blood stains found in the car was red (indicating it was fresh) and not the “reddy/blue” colour of decomposed blood;
(c) there was no odour of decomposition detected in the car from fluids that would have leaked from the body, entered the fabric and remained in the car; and
(d) the evidence (blood) found in the car was consistent with blood loss within three hours (and not two to three days) after injury.

 

[SecretSource]

I know a great deal was made over whether RB could or couldn't drive a standard transmission, but this is a shitbox Tercel and not a tractor trailer with 18 speeds. If you're scared enough even the most inept can drive one. Even not scared it's not that hard. First or second gear those things will pull away from a dead stop.

Perhaps but on the police theory, RB is driving it 3-4 times and at one point in broad daylight within a stone's throw of EB's home. If you're scared and can't drive a standard, why multiply the number of times you have to drive a car you've never driven before?

 

[SecretSource]

One more possibility is what if a jealous girlfriend was involved? I've never heard anything to even suggest it, but it wouldn't be out of the realm.

Interesting. Might explain the presence of the woman in the car earlier that day, which the police seem to think was credible and whose identity is still unknown. Maybe it was someone much younger?

 

[SecretSource]

That 15-30 minute time period between 9:15 pm and call it roughly 9:30 pm to 9:45 pm is a window of opportunity. The darkness obviously would help someone moving a body. I still feel that RB was involved but somebody else was involved as well, almost certainly the person that Liz was meeting that night. It's far easier for two people to move a body. Find me that time of the call RB made to Liz's friend. If it's before 9:30 pm I'll concede the time for RB doesn't fit. But 9:35 pm and slightly later still opens up a 15 - 20 minute window and a crack on the head near her car whether at 3r or the park at UofT, and the body wrapped in the blanket from her seat and dragged into the back of her car or dragged into the woods (and there are woods in both parks) to be moved later and back to gym can be done in 18 minutes including changing from shorts and a t-shirt into jeans and a sweater.

If you're suggesting a post-7:00 PM killing by RB then that is absolutely off the table. The only reason that Collins was ever seriously considered as a witness was because RB, at the time Collins first came to LE's attention, had no one who could verify his whereabouts at either the weightroom or the classroom. Once RB was accounted for at both locations LE and the Crown had no choice but to deep-six the post-7:00 PM killing theory for RB. Besides, the mental contortions one would have to engage to try to explain why RB and EB were together at 5:40 PM, then separated for no apparent reason, then RB goes to the classroom and hides then reports EB missing to her mother before he actually kills her (??????) while EB is sitting around not in class in some unknown location are too myriad to conceive of.

LE and the Crown dumped Collins and the post-7:00 PM killing by RB theory because it was effectively impossible and illogical; this may be one of those situations where one would be well-served in following their lead.

 

[Snively]

It was made at roughly 10:00 PM as per my answer below.

Also, she wasn't EB's friend; LP was RB's friend as was her brother who RB played volleyball with.

Well that 10:00 pm phone call leaves up to a 45 minute window. Now that's lot's of time. I never did think anything happened earlier. After dark always made sense. Still think RB ran into her at either 3r or the park by the UofT on the way back from the Bain's. The phone call and the 30 minutes in the gym were an alibi and he came back later that night when he slipped out of his house to move her car and the body.

 

[kemo]

While a scenario where RB kills EB at 9:30 or later is physically possible, it entails both a total lack of supporting evidence and it runs counter to how we would expect a "non-criminal" type to react when they might kill someone in a fit of anger.

Whatever happened, the real gaping question is "where was EB after 6:30 or so; which ever sighting you chose to believe?" Was she really flitting around the park by herself, skipping class until MB managed to track her down. In real life, this doesn't happen. EB was with someone. For a while she could have hung out at the tennis courts;thinking things over before she confronts RB but not until 9:30 or later. Way too long. Missing a class, doesn't seem like reasonable normal behavior at all.

I should be getting my copy of No Mercy tomorrow or Tuesday. Perhaps my perspective will change.
Right now, it seems to me that EB was with somebody in the late afternoon/early evening who would have come forward had he (unlikely but possible that it was a she) not been involved in her disappearance. At this point, it seems unlikely that person will ever be identified. Perhaps someone closer to the events at hand know s something I don't.

 

[eyesonly]

Interesting. Might explain the presence of the woman in the car earlier that day, which the police seem to think was credible and whose identity is still unknown. Maybe it was someone much younger?

not sure about the woman in the car was actually on the 19th. woman was said to be wearing a rain coat. if that is true, it didn't rain on the 19th, it rained the week before on the 12th. could it have been someone from EB's work she was driving around, like she drove william that night to her place for a movie with RB and the neighbour kids.
that could be the reason this older lady has never been found, mentally disabled?
and if it was on the 19th, then same scenario with EB driving someone from the care home.

 

[eyesonly]

If you're suggesting a post-7:00 PM killing by RB then that is absolutely off the table. The only reason that Collins was ever seriously considered as a witness was because RB, at the time Collins first came to LE's attention, had no one who could verify his whereabouts at either the weightroom or the classroom. Once RB was accounted for at both locations LE and the Crown had no choice but to deep-six the post-7:00 PM killing theory for RB. Besides, the mental contortions one would have to engage to try to explain why RB and EB were together at 5:40 PM, then separated for no apparent reason, then RB goes to the classroom and hides then reports EB missing to her mother before he actually kills her (??????) while EB is sitting around not in class in some unknown location are too myriad to conceive of.

LE and the Crown dumped Collins and the post-7:00 PM killing by RB theory because it was effectively impossible and illogical; this may be one of those situations where one would be well-served in following their lead.

Yes post 7pm off the table for RB killing EB, in fact any time is off the table for that. However a post 7pm time for what happened to EB is close to 100% imo. Because LE and crown dumped collins as a witness because it didn't fit with RB, has no bearing on the validity of collins sighting in regards to what really happened that night to EB.

we have to separate the 2 paths here. either RB was guilty or not. it's clear by all the evidence that he is not guilty, therefore we need to look at the witness sightings for their validity without RB in mind.

collins sighting at the 3r and her description of events directly cooberates the 401 sighting in both events happening and the timing. especially that EB was in the passenger seat of her own vehicle in both instances.
RB states he witnessed EB's car until approx 715pm, the 410 sighting takes place from between 715pm to around 8pm, in that time frame, it takes about 5-10mins max to hit the 401 from the valley lot, another 10 max to brock road and 10-20mins to get back to 3r auto. morrish rd comes right off from kingston rd exit from 401. the first exit you would hit is lawson, and to go by that to morrish leads me to believe the driver knew the area.
collins sighting takes place from 8-830pm, from description of sunlight and getting home to watch "in the heat of the night" that started at 9pm.
Note that all times are approx and there should be a give and take value added.

for both sighting to have seen EB in the passenger seat of her own car, both claiming the same night, with times continuity of each other, and the fact that LE suppressed the 401 sighting, is a good indication that these are viable sightings.
it is inconceivable that two totally complete strangers could come up with these sightings that perfectly fit with each other. it doesnt happen, and LE's first rule of belief is they don't believe in coincidences.

Just don't want to lose the sight of finding EB by eliminating all witnesses because they aren't viable for the RB theory of being responsible. jmo

 

[Snively]

I have always thought that the time of the murder or at least moving the body was closer to 9:30 pm. That was before I started re-reading timelines and found RB does have an opening at this time. I based it simply on the fact that after dark seems the most logical time to move a body, whether from the woods to the car or even just near the car itself.

I still think she was with someone and they got caught and an argument started. Whether it was an accident or not is up to you. I do think it was an accident by people that are not violent but a fight got out of hand. It happens. I think heading back to the gym was part for an alibi but also trying to figure out what to do. This is the part that I don't like. It's one thing to go to the gym for an alibi but it doesn't seem that RB was out of character at that point. I think somebody who hadn't been in trouble before would have been nervous as hell. None of his friends testified to that. It is possible he was one cool customer or just quietly stayed on the edges of conversations and nobody really noticed.

The reason I think there were two people involved starts with the point it sure seems she was seeing somebody that night. It's also very difficult to move dead weight by yourself.

I've said who I suspect the second person was. He fits the description of a blonde man. He worked on the campus with RB, so he almost certainly knew Liz. He coerced a witness and I think he did this not to help RB but because he himself wasn't in the gym at all and was actually with Liz. Going out on a limb for somebody who isn't that great of a friend, isn't it? He gave a time of being with RB in the gym at 9:15 pm when RB hadn't been there for about 30 minutes (8:45 pm gym, 9:00 pm class, 9:15 pm Bains). I sure would like to see a copy of the calls coming into the Bain's in the weeks preceding, especially that one from the 12th.

The location I think this person took the body comes back straight past Haugen's. This person has a connection to this location from working at a camp in this area.

 

[SecretSource]

not sure about the woman in the car was actually on the 19th. woman was said to be wearing a rain coat. if that is true, it didn't rain on the 19th, it rained the week before on the 12th. could it have been someone from EB's work she was driving around, like she drove william that night to her place for a movie with RB and the neighbour kids.
that could be the reason this older lady has never been found, mentally disabled?
and if it was on the 19th, then same scenario with EB driving someone from the care home.

I'm not sure about the woman in the car either but LT knew EB and the sighting was in the vicinity of where EB made her bank ATM withdrawal so it kind of makes sense. IMO it wasn't a client from the group home because she would have had to secure permission to have a client, all the clients were known to LE and they would have canvassed other staff to see if EB had picked any up, and EB wasn't working that day so had no reason to do so. Also, there would have been witnesses at the group home who had seen her pick the person up and a record showing it as well; there were none. It was either a mystery woman who has never been located or a mistake on LT's part; the client theory doesn't really work.

 

[SecretSource]

Well that 10:00 pm phone call leaves up to a 45 minute window. Now that's lot's of time. I never did think anything happened earlier. After dark always made sense. Still think RB ran into her at either 3r or the park by the UofT on the way back from the Bain's. The phone call and the 30 minutes in the gym were an alibi and he came back later that night when he slipped out of his house to move her car and the body.

You may want to re-read my post. RB's whereabouts were accounted for by multiple people in multiple locations from 7:15 - 10:30 PM and a killing by RB during that time frame is a no go. And, it makes zero sense that EB would have been at Three 'R' alone or anywhere else for that matter while RB was elsewhere. Why didn't she go to class if she wasn't with RB dead or alive before 7:00 PM? LE and the Crown adopted MP's evidence and got rid of Collins' evidence for a very good reason: if MP saw EB with a man in the valley at 5:40 PM then that man killed her and they never separated at anytime prior to the killing; any other theory that has them separating then meeting up again then having her killed makes no sense. Now if you don't believe MP then that theory is off the table and you have to consider Collins sighting as possible, KN's sighting equally possible and that EB could have been killed anytime that night by anyone but almost certainly not RB.

Also, if Baltovich needed an alibi why bother calling LP? Sorry but it's ridiculous. All he needed to do was exactly what he did do: go the gym, play volleyball and talk to all his friends and acquaintances. That was more than enough alibi if he needed one. And as for slipping out of his house, sorry but that wouldn't have happened. If he killed EB then he knew she was dead, knew she wasn't coming home that night, and Mrs. B's call could (and probably should) have come anytime from the time he left her home until morning when she did call.

Example:

EB's Mom (anytime that night after midnight): Hi may I speak to Rob please? E hasn't come home yet.

RB's mom: Sure, one moment please. Rob! Rob! Rob! Hmm, that's strange, he's not responding. One moment please. (Comes back from RB's room). I'm sorry, he's not home either and he was at 11 PM. I'm worried.

RB's mom: Well, Rob was home a few hours ago but E wasn't with him. And now he's not here either.

EB's Mom: Okay, Thanks anyway (and thanks to RB's mom for confirming for me and any further homicide investigation that in the middle of the night RB wasn't home, wasn't available to talk to me and therefore was by far the most likely suspect to have killed my daughter and disposed of her body!).

I think you get the gist. It's insane and the police knew it and THAT'S why they came up with the absurd theory that he waited 2 days then disposed of the body. Nothing else made sense.

 

[SecretSource]

RB learned about the accident from his lawyers in 2004 when his lawyers were preparing for his appeal. Until shortly before his appeal which was originally scheduled in April of 2004 no one on RB's defence team had gained access to the police files but it came to their attention at that time. Neither RB nor his trials lawyers had any idea that the intersection leading into the valley east to west had effectively been closed off from 5:20 PM to 6:30 PM - wires were down and the traffic light not operating - nor was it ever disclosed by the Crown.

The accident helps RB because he told LE that he left sometime between 6:20 PM and 6:30 PM which meant he travelled along a busy thoroughfare like Kingston Rd. and at that time it would have taken him roughly 20-25 minutes to get to UTSC via the valley. LE thought RB was lying - obviously because he would have to leave earlier to end up being on a picnic table with EB at 5:40 PM. But if RB were lying he could have provided anytime for his departure; quite the coincidence that he chose a time that allowed him to actually get into the valley when had he chosen a time earlier it wouldn't have flown. Of course, the elephant in the room in all this is why even bother saying he had seen the car, looked for EB in the valley and then put some note on the car when logic dictates that he would simply say that he didn't see her car or her that night and leave it at that; and if he knew about the accident that shut down access to the valley, that would make it even easier to see he didn't see her MV or not because he could have simply said to LE "I went my usual route but there was an accident so I couldn't get through." LE still hasn't come up with a coherent reason why RB placed himself there in the first place unless he was innocent and he was simply telling the truth. Keep in mind that he never knew about the accident - or at least never mentioned it to anyone - nor did the police disclose it at RB's trial.

Now, there is the possibility that RB went to UTSC before the accident, which would seem to corroborate KN's sighting in the gym and MP's sighting on the picnic table. But that would mean that RB's mother, brother and sister-in-law were all lying. But why? Number one, no one knew about MP's sighting so there was no reason to lie. Number 2, it's doubtful that DB would lie and she worked until 5:00 PM that day in Markham so if she did see RB that day it had to be long after 5:00 PM. Also, if RB managed to coax his family into lying for him to create a false alibi, he could have done a much better job. His mother basically testified as follows: "RB left at 6:30 PM and I didn't seem him for another four and a half hours; I have no idea where he went, what he did and who he interacted with." Some false alibi. How about this rather simple one if he actually committed the crime before 7:00 PM:

"I went to work out but realized that I forgot something; I went home and once there I thought to myself that it was a little bit late so instead of heading off to UTSC to work out I stayed home and watched TV. No muss, no fuss.

 

[Woodland]

Everyone seems so sure EB was at the campus late afternoon - early evening. Everyone seems to sure she drove her car there. Everyone seems so sure she was killed in that vicinity.

Yet there is no evidence she was there to those who do not believe MP. No purse left behind, no wallet, no stray shoe and no evidence picked up by tracking dogs.

She could have been somewhere else for all anyone really knows.

 

[Woodland]

The full extent of the testing of the blood is unknown but the meeting at CFS was for an hour and 45 minutes and the notes taken amount to less than a page; we may never know the full extent of what was exchanged. From RB's amended statement of claim, based on LE's notes:

(a) her body would not have lost blood in the quantity found in the car if the body had been left out for two to three days;
(b) the colour of blood stains found in the car was red (indicating it was fresh) and not the “reddy/blue” colour of decomposed blood;
(c) there was no odour of decomposition detected in the car from fluids that would have leaked from the body, entered the fabric and remained in the car; and
(d) the evidence (blood) found in the car was consistent with blood loss within three hours (and not two to three days) after injury.

Trying to decipher exactly what three hours means - the car was found about 2:00 pm and the evidence collecting person checked it after that.

Does three hours mean 11:00 am that day?

Or the blood was deposited there within three hours of injury (regardless of how long before that was) and stayed as it was until it was found and looked at? No change to the components etc? Still able to drip from the mat to the floor?

 

[SecretSource]

I have always thought that the time of the murder or at least moving the body was closer to 9:30 pm.

You may be right but that eliminates RB.

...after dark seems the most logical time to move a body, whether from the woods to the car or even just near the car itself.

I agree completely; however, let it be known that under examination last year as part of RB's civil case LE suggested that RB placed EB in her car before he went to the gym at 7:15 PM.

I still think she was with someone and they got caught and an argument started. Whether it was an accident or not is up to you. I do think it was an accident by people that are not violent but a fight got out of hand. It happens.

A very likely scenario, IMO.

The reason I think there were two people involved starts with the point it sure seems she was seeing somebody that night. It's also very difficult to move dead weight by yourself.

Doesn't compute and no reason to believe that anyone who could have helped RB would have risked doing so. These are university students with their whole lives ahead of them. If they knew a friend or acquaintance had done something so egregious they wouldn't involve themselves. And as for your second person, he was not a close friend of RB's therefore had nothign to gain and everything to lose, barely knew EB, and was an engineering student who had his entire life ahead of him.

I sure would like to see a copy of the calls coming into the Bain's in the weeks preceding, especially that one from the 12th.

So would I; I believe it would crack and would have cracked the case; alas, it was a local call on a landline so no record.

I think this person took the body comes back straight past Haugen's. This person has a connection to this location from working at a camp in this area.

If the car was near Haugen's and the Wednesday sighting is correct, RB is at home speaking to EB's mother and is innocent. If the sighting is correct but the day is wrong then that leaves Friday morning per DD. The latter means EB was killed closer to Friday, LE's case against RB is destroyed and we're looking at an abduction, exactly what the judge at RB's abbreviated trial in 2008 opined.

Not trying to be rude Snively but I think based on my comments you catch my drift; it's time to move off RB as suspect. He didn't do it and the recent scientific expert evidence uncovered in the civil process makes it that much more apparent.

 

[SecretSource]

Trying to decipher exactly what three hours means - the car was found about 2:00 pm and the evidence collecting person checked it after that.

Does three hours mean 11:00 am that day?

Or the blood was deposited there within three hours of injury (regardless of how long before that was) and stayed as it was until it was found and looked at? No change to the components etc? Still able to drip from the mat to the floor?

Actually, both scenarios are possible. All hinges on whether the experts told LE that the blood was fresh at the time the car was found, or whether it was fresh - and colour red suggests that it was fairly fresh - at the time the car was found.

From the amended statement of claim, LE's note based on his conversations with CFS:

- if out 2-3 days she would decompose and blood would decompose this would preclude blood loss as seen
- would lose blood 3 hours after injury and would be consistent with evidence
- possible cause – 2 hits to head and then strangled with ligature left in place; would dam up blood in head and cause bleeding;
- if decomposed, the odour would be noticeable as decomposed fluids would enter fabric and remain
- if body decomposing then we would not see smears that are red – they would be reddy/blue
- 8 pts in human body – this is about ¼ pint
- no answer to fatal blow

 

[eyesonly]

RB learned about the accident from his lawyers in 2004 when his lawyers were preparing for his appeal. Until shortly before his appeal which was originally scheduled in April of 2004 no oune on RB's defence team had gained access to the police files but it came to their attention at that time. Neither RB nor his trials lawyers had any idea that the intersection leading into the valley east to west had effectively been closed off from 5:20 PM to 6:30 PM - wires were down and the traffic light not operating - nor was it ever disclosed by the Crown.

Just curious, in a post above SS says RB couldn't have made it thru the valley at the earlier LE stated time. because the the intersection was closed off east to west from the valley.
Wouldn't RB be coming from west to east from his home through the valley.
Sorry I may have misread it or may have my directions mixed up for that area.

Thanks in advance for the clarification SS.

 

[Woodland]

Could the blood be a red herring? That's a small quantity - half or less of what people donate in one sitting.

Who in the Bain family knew/knows how to draw blood?

What was the pattern associated with the blood on the mats? Any pattern? Was it in fact on both mats in the rear of the car? There was a smear on the front of the rear bench seat and on some leaves/twigs.

Seems like no pattern at all to me.