CANADA Canada - Elizabeth Bain, 22, Scarborough Ont, 19 June 1990 #1

[eyesonly]

Secretsource:
If she was killed in the car would there not be more blood evidence in the front seats area or on the back seat. Also no signs of body fluids that would have been released. And yes guess the body could be out of car for 2-3hrs as per CFS report. I thought blood would be congealing after heart stops pumping and thought I read online that rigor would be setting in around that time.
Btw, how would they come to the possible scenario of 2 hits to the head. Why not 1. Curious.
And you had a good point, if someone put her expired body in the car 2-3hrs later, wouldn't the trunk be the most logical place for transportation.


Snively:
If she was wrapped in a blanket there would be forensic evidence of fibres from where the body laid

Woodland:
True, there is no definitive evidence that she died that night or any other night. Possible she was kidnapped for prostitution.
Would you mind enlightening us with your possible theory please, would like to hear it

 

[Woodland]

Can't say I have a definitive theory yet amigo, busy trying to understand and use what little evidence does exist. To me, at the moment, the evidence does not speak so much as to what happened, but feel it speaks much more on what didn't happen.

Imo, EB was never dragged into the rear of her car - bleeding, alive or deceased - nor dragged out. The evidence is just not there imo. That small amount of blood, mostly smears, says to me it was smeared by hand or a cloth and poured onto the rear mats and other items on the floor.

The quantity of blood on the rear passenger side mat vs the rear drivers side would say a lot, imo. If it is roughly equal - that would say to me it was poured from a container. Only getting that from what CFS was so careful 'not' to say. How do we know the possibility of staging did not come up in the CFS meeting with Raybould and he did not write that down.

Somewhere at sometime someone knew what the ratio was.

So working backwards from the view of EB's body never in the car - who had the time, wherewithal and motive to plan and carry-out such a move? If one wanted to use the term 'consciousness of guilt' then close to home would fit, considering the many deceiving actions that eventually emanated from there. Jmo.

 

[eyesonly]

Can't say I have a definitive theory yet amigo, busy trying to understand and use what little evidence does exist. To me, at the moment, the evidence does not speak so much as to what happened, but feel it speaks much more on what didn't happen.

Imo, EB was never dragged into the rear of her car - bleeding, alive or deceased - nor dragged out. The evidence is just not there imo. That small amount of blood, mostly smears, says to me it was smeared by hand or a cloth and poured onto the rear mats and other items on the floor.

The quantity of blood on the rear passenger side mat vs the rear drivers side would say a lot, imo. If it is roughly equal - that would say to me it was poured from a container. Only getting that from what CFS was so careful 'not' to say. How do we know the possibility of staging did not come up in the CFS meeting with Raybould and he did not write that down.

Somewhere at sometime someone knew what the ratio was.

So working backwards from the view of EB's body never in the car - who had the time, wherewithal and motive to plan and carry-out such a move? If one wanted to use the term 'consciousness of guilt' then close to home would fit, considering the many deceiving actions that eventually emanated from there. Jmo.

Fair enough. If you are looking closer to "home" then you have absolved RB of any responsibility in this.
And if that's the case then we have to take everything RB said he did and saw that night at face value.
In saying that,how do you account for the reason her car would be parked in the valley lot as per RB from at least 645pm till 715pm.
If she was killed long before that as you are implying, why would someone drive and park her car there.

 

[Woodland]

Not implying at all that EB was killed on 19 June 1990 - at her home or anywhere else. There is no evidence of that - trying to stick with what is known.

EB's car could have been driven to the valley lot by her for all I know - but if so, I think she got out of it and stepped into another vehicle.

Or, it was driven there by someone else, with access to her keys, as part of a staging attempt - to be seen by someone/anyone. Her wallet was in her room, the car window(s) were rolled down and the car was unlocked - in an area that had signs posted to beware of potential crime (from NCTM). This has me leaning towards EB did not drive and park her car in the valley lot late afternoon of 19 June 1990.

 

[Woodland]

From NCTM page 367 - the preliminary hearing.

RH - forensic biologist with CFS opines that - 'A large, bulky, blood-stained object (a body) had been lowered onto the floor behind the front seats through the passenger door. The smears didn't indicate much about how the body had been removed from the vehicle, but the lack of 'impact spatters' - what one would find near the victim of a gunshot or stab wound or heavy blow - had led RH to believe that the bleeding had begun prior to entering the vehicle. Unfortunately, according to RH, no tests existed to determine whether the blood had spilled from a body that was dead or alive.'

So if staging did occur - the person staging the scene did not put any thought into smears required for a body to be removed from the vehicle. Your average Joe might be inclined to not foresee that requirement. Jmo.

The words 'a body' are in brackets in the first sentence - denoting RH did not use the term body. Why would he if he used the term 'large, bulky, bloodstained object'? To me, he was clarifying the evidence needed to be open to interpretation as it was not in any way definitive. The words 'the body' seem to have been spoken by him in his second sentence. Jmo.

 

[Woodland]

NCTM paDet page 123 - Det NR forensically testing EB's car at CFS.

'... took swabs of blood from various stains in the interior and removed the entire carpet for further forensic testing'.

So yes, somewhere someone wrote down what the results of the further testing on the rear carpet/mats from the Tercel were. Where is that ratio of blood info between one side of the rear to the other?

 

[kemo]

Obviously RH was following procedure in making no presumptions. It's a good bet he believed the smears were made by a body but he couldn't be sure so he didn't say so. I still wonder why there wasn't more blood over the back seat area of the car. I would expect there to be a lot of blood on the back of the passenger seat if a body, that had suffered a serious open head injury was placed in the back, head first, through the passenger door of a small two door car. A lot of car was taken to avoid a mess or there was a clean-up afterwards (which would be obvious if luminal were used). I'm not sure what that would mean except for cool headed professionalism you wouldn't expect from a "sudden rage" killing.

 

[Woodland]

The lack of exit evidence is speaking, imo.

Not sure a DNA profile was ever done on the blood - no report to that effect has been posted here. Only a reverse paternity test was done at the time - to verify the blood belonged to a female offspring of Mr and Mrs Bain.

If someone really wanted to get creative, finish the job and tie up all loose ends - how did a DNA profile compare to sister C? If a DNA profile was done, checking against C would be in order, imo.

 

[kemo]

The lack of exit evidence is speaking, imo.

Not sure a DNA profile was ever done on the blood - no report to that effect has been posted here. Only a reverse paternity test was done at the time - to verify the blood belonged to a female offspring of Mr and Mrs Bain.

If someone really wanted to get creative, finish the job and tie up all loose ends - how did a DNA profile compare to sister C? If a DNA profile was done, checking against C would be in order, imo.

An interesting point, DNA elimination of the sister would be positive I.d. Of EB since she was the only other female offspring.

I see no reason to suspect that this was the sister's blood but it would seem real sloppy not to rule it out; something a good Lawyer would jump all over.

 

[eyesonly]

Obviously RH was following procedure in making no presumptions. It's a good bet he believed the smears were made by a body but he couldn't be sure so he didn't say so. I still wonder why there wasn't more blood over the back seat area of the car. I would expect there to be a lot of blood on the back of the passenger seat if a body, that had suffered a serious open head injury was placed in the back, head first, through the passenger door of a small two door car. A lot of car was taken to avoid a mess or there was a clean-up afterwards (which would be obvious if luminal were used). I'm not sure what that would mean except for cool headed professionalism you wouldn't expect from a "sudden rage" killing.

If you were cool headed why wouldn't you put her in the trunk, am for that matter even if it was a sudden incident with an inexperienced shaken killer and use the blankets in the trunk to wrap her body. Why drag her into the back of a very small car and then not clean even clean up afterwards.

If you were staging something, why would anyone use her blood, why put any blood in the car, why would anyone risk such a stupid move, that makes no sense at all. This is not a csi movie, we are dealing with regular people who prob know nothing at all about forensics countermeasures.
Maybe putting the car somewhere for staging maybe but to actually put the victims blood in the car makes no sense. If there's no blood you could just say she was disturbed and ran away or maybe threw herself in Lake Ontario for a suicide.

And what would the purpose be for locking the car doors. I have thoughts but would like to hear others opinions first.

 

[Snively]

And you had a good point, if someone put her expired body in the car 2-3hrs later, wouldn't the trunk be the most logical place for transportation.

Snively:
If she was wrapped in a blanket there would be forensic evidence of fibres from where the body laid

The biggest reason would be the awkward lift over in to the trunk and out. Dead weight isn't very easy for one person to handle. I've physically tried the dead weight idea. In to the trunk is tough but it's getting the body out that is really tough. Very, very awkward to lift and the body would be lying flat. Maybe somebody did actually think about trying to keep the wound higher than the heart and for that the transmission tunnel works perfectly? The other thing is that there really isn't that much space in the trunk of a two door Toyota Tercel.

Snively:
If she was wrapped in a blanket there would be forensic evidence of fibres from where the body laid

I totally agree about fibres. There should have been hairs found (Liz's for sure, probably the drivers), fibres, dirt from the tires, dirt from people getting in and out. So many different things. The dirt would sure help proving where the car had gone and where the person driving had also walked. Swampy areas. Beach sand. Mud when it had been dry. Dirt from the floor mat. Under the floor mat. On the door sill. From the tires and wheel wells. Different soils have different content and can definitely be analyzed to give a surprising amount of information of where they come from. This technology was readily available in 1990. DNA was in it's infancy but was known at the time. Was any of this tested or even searched for?

Pretty much the only information that I've ever heard of is the fingerprints from the car and a listing of what was found in the car and the blood information. Is there another report about these details or was there a complete up and nobody got this information? I like to think there wasn't that much incompetence.

 

[Woodland]

The evidence, put together in one place is painting a picture - not any one individual.

There is no evidence a body was dragged out of the car, the windows were down - then the windows were up, the doors were unlocked - then the doors were locked, there was blood from a female offspring of Mr and Mrs Bain in the rear of the car along with the passenger door frame, two seat-belt areas and the edge of the rear bench seat.

An engineer and a registered nurse knew nothing of forensic capability at that time?

Chuckles - imo (speaking through a megaphone with a helicopter hovering overhead) put the ear buds down and step away from the TPS officers.

 

[Woodland]

Snively - you have attributed a quote to me in your post #771 that I did not make. Kindly correct.

 

[Snively]

Obviously RH was following procedure in making no presumptions. It's a good bet he believed the smears were made by a body but he couldn't be sure so he didn't say so. I still wonder why there wasn't more blood over the back seat area of the car. I would expect there to be a lot of blood on the back of the passenger seat if a body, that had suffered a serious open head injury was placed in the back, head first, through the passenger door of a small two door car. A lot of car was taken to avoid a mess or there was a clean-up afterwards (which would be obvious if luminal were used). I'm not sure what that would mean except for cool headed professionalism you wouldn't expect from a "sudden rage" killing.

The lack of blood smeared on the seats and such tend to point to the wound being wrapped prior to the body being placed in the car. I still think the blanket or cloth that was seen on the passenger seat was used to wrap the wound. It's the only blanket that was not accounted for. The other two were found in the trunk. A thick blanket would work better but even something as thin and small as pillow slip slid over the head and wrapped tightly would cut down on the amount of blood seeping out. Did the killer use a blanket or a garbage bag from their car? Or just a plastic bag from the grocery store? A plastic bag would also explain a lack of fibres. Did they use a first aid kit from their car to wrap the wound quickly before wrapping a blanket or cloth around the head? Did they just grab hockey tape out of their hockey bag and wrap that tightly around the blanket or cloth? People do play summer hockey and let's face it, we're Canadian and a lot of guys play hockey. All can be done very quickly and by anybody.

Without a body there is too much guessing involved and too many variables.

How much do any of these possibilities change the forensic report on the blood?

It does seem logical that only one person moved and disposed of the body. If there were two people, one would follow in their own car and one would drive Liz's car and the entire car with the body in it would be pushed into a swamp or lake. Then back into car number 2 and they both drive away. No body. No forensics. Somebody needed Liz's car to get back to Scarborough and it seems likely their car was parked where Liz's was ultimately found while the person was driving Liz's away. But this does not mean that there were not two or even more involved.

 

[Woodland]

There is no evidence of a head wound.

 

[Woodland]

The forensic report on the blood is the forensic report on the blood - what is there to change? In light of what?

The only thing to add is the quantity of blood on the passenger side mat vs the quantity on the drivers side mat, and exactly which female offspring did the blood belong to.

 

[Snively]

Snively - you have attributed a quote to me in your post #771 that I did not make. Kindly correct.

Done. Sorry mate, still trying to figure out the quote thing here.

 

[Snively]

There is no evidence of a head wound.

A wound can be wrapped up no matter where it is. It's pointless to quibble over where the wound was without a body. Everybody can only guess what weapon was used. Was she stabbed, shot, hit with a rock or a pipe, or just fell and hit her head? Even a gunshot wound can be patched up with a simple tampon and compression from something tied tightly around. A plastic bag from a grocery store or a garbage bag whether slipped over of ripped in half and taped on makes a difference.

A wound wrapped in plastic would give different blood characteristics than an open wound or one wrapped in a blanket. Windows left up, down or partially down change the humidity. That changes characteristics. Sugar or salt helps heal wounds. So do dry coffee grounds. I don't think most people would have dry coffee grounds in their car but a bag or two of sugar salt from a Tim's or a fast food joint a lot of people could quite easily have these in their car.

 

[SecretSource]

Quote is from post #727, page 30.

There could not have been testimony by CFS that blood was smeared on the inside of rear passenger side door - there was no rear passenger door.

Oops! Rear portion of the passenger side door.

 

[Woodland]

What portion is the rear portion of the passenger side door? The frame? We know about a smear on the frame of the passenger side door - the part that connects when closed.