CANADA Canada - Elizabeth Bain, 22, Scarborough Ont, 19 June 1990 #1

[Snively]

Without a body a lot is guesswork. The depth of wound makes a great difference as does whether a vein or artery would be hit. A vein will usually bleed a darker colour as it doesn't have as much oxygen. I still remember that from basic training. Even with a body, variables have to be factored in like temperature, trauma (whether it was a penetrating or crushing wound), humidity, body size and clothing.

In this instance, if it was an accident did someone try to stop the bleeding? Did they figure she was mortally wounded and put a plastic bag over her head until she suffocated? If the bag was held tight but not tied off blood would seep out over time. It's certainly a guess how long a body was even in the car.

The sloppy part I think tends to show that someone was in a rush, who clearly wasn't a professional, probably in a somewhat public area and worried that somebody would walk by and likely scared to death themselves.

 

[SecretSource]

A vein will usually bleed a darker colour as it doesn't have as much oxygen.

Blood is blood; a vein may spill more of it, but once out of the body and oxygenated it is all the same colour. And on that note, here is a quote from McMahon at RB's prelim:

"Now it’s the Crowns submissions when you look at the evidence of the DNA expert that has found that the soaked blood in that carpet, and the blood on that yellow piece of paper are the blood of Elizabeth Bain, and equally important Higaki said, two things that are important, Higaki said is that all of the blood appeared to be of the same vintage because if it had been put there on different occasions, you would in fact have seen different coloured staining…"


The conclusion being that it was all the same colour, therefore deposited at the same time, shortly after EB was killed.

It's certainly a guess how long a body was even in the car.

With respect, the forensic evidence suggests otherwise. There were absolutely no signs of decomposition of either the blood or the body, from which we can conclude that once placed in the car, the body wasn't there for very long. No decompositional fluid, no decompositional odor and a complete absence of insect activity, the latter of which also would also have indicated that a body had been in the car for some time, meaning the body was removed soon after being placed in the car and not 2-3 days later.

This actually harmonizes with your comment that "[T]he sloppy part I think tends to show that someone was in a rush, who clearly wasn't a professional, probably in a somewhat public area and worried that somebody would walk by and likely scared to death themselves." I very much agree with this assessment, for a person in a rush would have wanted to get the body in the car and out of the car very quickly with little regard for the blood left in the car; as it happens, the forensic seems to confirm this. RB clearly wasn't in a rush that night, going to the weight room, to EB's class, to her home, to UTSC, etc. and a person in a rush also wouldn't wait 2-3 days to dispose of a body, which we now know couldn't have happened anyway.

Maybe the judge at RB's preliminary hearing in 1991 knew something we didn't until 22 years later:

The Court: Do you think that I have the prerogative in law of discounting the Dibben identification evidence as being so frail that it’s no evidence at all?


How prescient he was.

 

[eyesonly]

As per suggested scenario by secretsource.
What if EB was killed or subdued into unconsciousness in the car in the back seat. If someone is strangled her that could amount to pressure in the head area forcing blood out the mouth and nose. And maybe the body dragging in the car was simply a body being dragged out of the car?

 

[Woodland]

I wouldn't give you "everything" but "when it was placed there" I will grant you at this point; about the only things that we can be confident of is that if EB was dead before 7:15 PM on June 19th, 1990 she was in her car by 10:00 PM at the latest and the sighting of the car on Friday morning is off the table.

Okay - RB looked in and reached in and out of the car (putting a note in, taking the note out) and did not notice the blood smear on the rear bench seat (the part where bent legs would rest in front of when seated), nor the anchor point of the front seat belts (middle of the car) nor blood on items on the rear floor of the car - leaves, twigs, paper. It's logical that he could miss blood in the mats, if there, the passenger seat belt, passenger rocker panel and edge of passenger door frame.

These sightings by RB were between 6:45 pm and 7:15 pm - two separate occasions (maybe three). RB did not see the car after that until it was found.

So what are the possibilities of where EB could have been at this point?

 

[Woodland]

What is saying the blood dripped from a wound sustained by EB? Why was the placement of the blood a sloppy act by someone in a rush?

My biggest fear is that there is no second chance to confirm who the blood actually belonged to.

 

[eyesonly]

Okay - RB looked in and reached in and out of the car (putting a note in, taking the note out) and did not notice the blood smear on the rear bench seat (the part where bent legs would rest in front of when seated), nor the anchor point of the front seat belts (middle of the car) nor blood on items on the rear floor of the car - leaves, twigs, paper. It's logical that he could miss blood in the mats, if there, the passenger seat belt, passenger rocker panel and edge of passenger door frame.

These sightings by RB were between 6:45 pm and 7:15 pm - two separate occasions (maybe three). RB did not see the car after that until it was found.

So what are the possibilities of where EB could have been at this point?

she was either in the valley avoiding RB because she saw him and he didn't see her. or she was away from the valley with someone else.
i don't think too much of the later, because it doesn't seem likely that she would leave her car there with the windows down.
i don't believe she was dead at this point (assuming she is dead). i think that whomever she was with realized then that she has a boyfriend. afterwards when RB left, they got in the car, she missed her class and things got out of hand because he realized he was being played.
She says in her diary she needed a man who would put her in her place, and maybe that's who she found.
It's possible that this guy left her alive and well, but because of where the car was parked, she may have ran into another individual.

i don't believe she was injured or dead before 7pm and i am sure there are more sightings of her after 7pm that have not been disclosed to the public.

this of course is doesn't exclude the scenario of MB being involved.

 

[SecretSource]

she was either in the valley avoiding RB because she saw him and he didn't see her. or she was away from the valley with someone else.
i don't think too much of the later, because it doesn't seem likely that she would leave her car there with the windows down.

There was no reason to be avoiding RB unless she was with someone else. And it still leaves open the question why she was there in the first place. I think it much more likely she wasn't in the valley at all by 6:45 PM but I agree that the windows pose a challenge. What about if she only planned on being out of the valley for a short time and figured that she would be back in time so why bother closing them? But yes, I have to agree that leaving the windows open was odd.

Also, keep in mind that Vasconcelos also saw the car at 7:00 PM and saw nothing in the car or around the car and nothing about the car that indicated that anything had happened in between her first sighting and the last sighting.

 

[Woodland]

Can you clarify 'the last sighting' SS? Vasconcelos saw the vehicle when she returned from her walk? Last sighting is by V after her walk? Have been wondering about that.

 

[deneva]

In June 1990, leaving your windows open in a car without air conditioning would have been normal. Less people locked cars also.

 

[eyesonly]

Also, keep in mind that Vasconcelos also saw the car at 7:00 PM and saw nothing in the car or around the car and nothing about the car that indicated that anything had happened in between her first sighting and the last sighting.

Ok so Vasconelos left the valley parking lot with her mom and dog at 7pm then. Thanks that's good to know her timing.

 

[Woodland]

Thanks for clarifying V left the park at 7:00 pm eyesonly.

Just thinking out loud - if I suddenly killed a sibling (or anyone for that matter) in the home where I lived, maybe broke their neck in a fit of rage, the first thing I might do, when I calmed down enough to think is, move their vehicle out of the driveway. That way it would give the appearance that person was not at the home and I, or someone else that was home and willing to cover for me, could give any time as a time of departure for the now deceased sibling/person.

I might put the vehicle in a location the deceased person was know to frequent, or in a high crime area in the hope the vehicle would be vandalized which would help me out with my cover story. Leaving the deceased persons wallet in the home would be a mistake on my part though, I would be better off leaving it on the front seat of the vehicle to lure a vandal. I would likely not think of that in a panic though.

I would likely be developing a plan during this time and may move the vehicle to help a better plan.

 

[SecretSource]

Thanks for clarifying V left the park at 7:00 pm eyesonly.

The MV sighting is also interesting from the standpoint of the new CFS evidence; it not only corroborates RB's sighting of the car but it nullifies another RB theory.

The Crown theory was that RB killed EB in the valley before 7:00 PM; EB told her mother that she would be back in a couple of hours which, if true, besides raising the interesting question of why it would take anyone a couple of hours to check a tennis schedule, would also mean that EB planned on going to class that night. This would also suggest that EB had to leave the valley by 6:30 PM were she alive and able to do so. Taking into account the CFS findings, on this theory EB had to be placed in her car by 9:30 PM per the CFS three-hour time limit; however, RB is accounted for from 7:15 PM until at least 10:30 PM when he helps RG put away the volleyball nets, then walks out of UTSC with three other people and spends another 5-10 minutes gabbing in the parking lot. The earliest RB can put EB in her car is about 10:45 PM - well over an hour past the 9:30 PM cutoff and 45 minutes past 10:00 PM. Then we have to deal with the question of why he would bother placing her in the car if his intent wasn't to dispose of her that night, which we know he had if she had remained in the car per the lack of any evidence of decomposition in the car when found Friday afternoon.

The other scenario on the Crown theory it seems is that RB placed the body in the car before RB arriving at the UTSC Athletic Centre, something LE suggested in March of 2013 and, it should be said, completely rules out any sighting of EB after 7:15 PM. The Globe and Mail reports, "The CFS conclusions were not inconsistent with the police theory, Mr. Reesor said. He alleged that Mr. Baltovich used Ms. Bain’s car initially to transport the body to a hiding spot in the park. Then, “wrapping it well,” he placed it back in the car a couple of days later. Again, because RB couldn't have got to the car until well after the cutoff, this would have to be before he goes to UTSC.

Setting aside the absurdity of a person successfully placing a body in a car in broad daylight without being discovered only then to remove it in broad daylight, leave it for a couple of days, then place it in the car again - or maybe twice again if you accept AS's evidence - and discounting the fact that the CFS evidence is that the body wasn't wrapped and that it wouldn't have mattered in terms of decomposition odor and insect activity, MV makes this scenario an impossibility. MV saw the car at 7:00 PM and there was no body in the car and it hadn't moved one inch since 6:20 PM. It is simply impossible that anyone could have made it to EB’s car after Vasconcelos saw it, driven it into the valley to where the body was presumably left, put the body in her car (in broad daylight no less and not in the trunk), driven it somewhere else, taken the body out and hidden it (again in broad daylight), hidden it well enough that it wouldn’t be found during the ensuing two days, gotten back in EB's car, driven it somewhere else (presumably close to their own car) then gotten back in their own car (without getting any blood in their car) then driven to UTSC and made it to to the Athletic Centre for a workout that began at 7:15 PM; or 7:00 PM if you accept MS's evidence-in-chief.

 

[SecretSource]

Thanks for clarifying V left the park at 7:00 pm eyesonly.

The MV sighting is also interesting from the standpoint of the new CFS evidence; it not only corroborates RB's sighting of the car but it nullifies a possible explanation that might account for the CFS findings.

The Crown theory was that RB killed EB in the valley before 7:00 PM; EB told her mother that she would be back in a couple of hours which, if true, besides raising the interesting question of why it would take anyone a couple of hours to check a tennis schedule, would also mean that EB planned on going to class that night. This would also suggest that EB had to leave the valley by 6:30 PM were she alive and able to do so. Taking into account the CFS findings, on this theory EB had to be placed in her car by 9:30 PM per the CFS three-hour time limit; however, RB is accounted for from 7:15 PM until at least 10:30 PM when he helps RG put away the volleyball nets, then walks out of UTSC with three other people and spends another 5-10 minutes gabbing in the parking lot. The earliest RB can put EB in her car is about 10:45 PM - well over an hour past the 9:30 PM cutoff and 45 minutes past 10:00 PM. Then we have to deal with the question of why he would bother placing her in the car if his intent wasn't to dispose of her that night, which we know he had to per the lack of any evidence of decomposition in the car when found Friday afternoon.

The other scenario on the Crown theory it seems is that RB placed the body in the car before RB arriving at the UTSC Athletic Centre, something LE suggested in March of 2013 and, it should be said, completely rules out any sighting of EB after 7:15 PM. The Globe and Mail reports, "The CFS conclusions were not inconsistent with the police theory, Mr. Reesor said. He alleged that Mr. Baltovich used Ms. Bain’s car initially to transport the body to a hiding spot in the park. Then, “wrapping it well,” he placed it back in the car a couple of days later. Again, because RB could have got to the car until well after the cutoff, this would have to be before he goes to UTSC.

Setting aside the absurdity of a person successfully placing a body in a car in broad daylight without being discovered only then to remove it, leave it for a couple of days, then place it in the car again - or maybe twice again if you accept AS's evidence - and discounting the fact that the CFS evidence is that the body wasn't wrapped and that it wouldn't have mattered in terms of decomposition odor and insect activity, MV makes this scenario an impossibility. MV saw the car at 7:00 PM and there was no body in the car and it hadn't moved one inch since 6:20 PM. It is simply impossible that anyone could have made it to EB’s car after Vasconcelos saw it, driven it into the valley to where the body was presumably left, put the body in her car (in broad daylight no less and not in the trunk), driven it somewhere else, taken the body out and hidden it (again in broad daylight), hidden it well enough that it wouldn’t be found during the ensuing two days, gotten back in EB's car, driven it somewhere else (presumably close to their own car) then gotten back in their own car (without getting any blood in their car) then driven to UTSC and made it to to the Athletic Centre for a workout that began at 7:15 PM; or 7:00 Pm if you accept MS's evidence-in-chief.

 

[Snively]

RB is not accounted for from the time he leaves the Bains at 9:20 pm to 9:40 pm. Why did it take him 20 minutes to get back to the campus when it's only a 4 minute drive?

 

[Woodland]

With all due respect Snively, EB is not accounted for at this time either, nor is she accounted for in the many hours leading up to this point.

To say RB left the Bain residence at 9:20 pm on 19 June is arbitrary - it makes more sense RB arrived at the Bain residence at 9:20 given what we know. He is likely to have left the Bain residence about 9:35 pm or so, given what we know.

If you want support - and I'm only assuming that you do, why not give a theory on what EB could have been doing during the elapsed time, rather than just commenting/speculating on RB? It takes a whole scenario to have support and a working theory - will go so far as to say that is a fact, not an opinion.

So, if one wants to embrace the MP sighting at the tennis courts at 5:40 pm - what could EB have done between then and 9:45 pm or so? Why did she not attend her class? If one wants to forget MP, given what we know about her antics years after 19 June 1990, what was EB doing since 3:45 pm or so?

Given EB's vehicle was at the valley parking lot from 6:20 pm to 7:15 pm on 19 June - what could have happened prior to and after that - bearing in mind what the blood evidence says - the blood is apparently only three hours old at about 2:00 pm on 22 June according to CFS.

Help us out - there are no less than 100 readers in any 24 hour period. Sometimes 150 - 200. Pretty sure all are looking for answers. Jmo.

 

[Snively]

Read my Post #730, Woodland. Get someone to help you with the big words.

 

[Woodland]

Snively - guessing your post #896 is in line with TOS with one or more of the mods. Don't know.

Your post #730 quotes pages 36 then 35 of NCTM - neither of which talk about RB at the Bain residence.

Page 54 does though - and no exact time is given. RB waits for EB outside of her class at 9:00 pm - goes back to the valley lot - then goes to the Bain residence. What time do you know this to be?

Your post #730 then jumps to page 68 - now about 9:45 pm.

What was EB doing all this time, in your opinion, since RB has a solid and never disputed alibi?

 

[SecretSource]

What was EB doing all this time, in your opinion, since RB has a solid and never disputed alibi?

Here's what McMahon told the judge at RB's preliminary inquiry in 1991:

The Court: Why wasn't the car taken immediately up to Highway 7?

McMahon: For this reason. If the car was immediately taken up, he would not have an alibi. He tied an alibi so tight, the only thing that went wrong, the only reason - assuming the body was never found up near Lake Scugog, the only thing went wrong with the plan was Dibben and Harriott. [he meant Elliott]. Because if he left immediately afterwards, and he was not accounted for that night, he would have a complete gap in his alibi.

What McMahon is saying here is what WL is saying: RB had no time unaccounted for that night subsequent to his departure from the weightroom and that he would therefore not have been moving any body because he would not have had an alibi. This was even before RB's defence had discovered the proof that RB had indeed attended EB's class that night and then driven to the Bain house which would have, in McMahon's words, made for an alibi that was even more "tight." Here and throughout RB's two trials and appeal no one had ever once suggested that the time period subsequent to RB's departure from the weight room was at issue and had RB been unaccounted for during that time period the Crown would have certainly seized upon it; they didn't because none existed.

The CFS findings discovered in 2013 make it clear that EB's body had to have been moved by 10:00 PM were she killed before 7:00 PM; how ironic that McMahon is effectively exonerating RB in his 1991 submission by asserting that RB's alibi was "so tight" that he could not have been doing what was required in order for him to be guilty.

 

[SecretSource]

RB is not accounted for from the time he leaves the Bains at 9:20 pm to 9:40 pm. Why did it take him 20 minutes to get back to the campus when it's only a 4 minute drive?

Your timing is off considerably. RB never left EB's classroom until roughly 9:15 PM per his statement and NT, who was waiting for his girlfriend that night and who recalls seeing RB there. RB told police he remained several minutes after NT left while others filed out and until he could be fairly sure that everyone had left. He then entered the classroom to double check to see if EB might be inside and later told the police that the Prof. was the only person in the class, which the Prof. later confirmed. It would have taken RB at least 5 minutes to get from there to his car which was parked at the UTSC Athletic Centre; from there it would have been another 4 minutes to get to Old Kingston Rd. where EB's car had been parked and seen by RB and MV earlier that night. From there it would be another 6 minutes to EB's home which would make it 9:30 PM for his arrival there and RB spoke to EB's mother for about 5 minutes until 9:35 then headed back to UTSC, arriving at roughly 9:40 PM at which point he initiated inquiries relating to calling LP.

 

[SecretSource]

What was EB doing all this time, in your opinion, since RB has a solid and never disputed alibi?

Likely this question and the issue of what EB would have been doing were she alive after 7:15 PM is why the Crown ultimately settled upon a theory that EB was killed before 7:15 PM, and then embarked upon a plan of sabotaging the Collins sighting despite the fact that in many ways it fit the scenario, especially in terms of where the car was ultimately found - just across from Three 'R' Autobody - thus casting Dibben's sighting into question as well. Collins rendered the theory that EB was killed by RB a huge problem because logic dictated that if EB was seen with a man at 5:40 PM, it would have been the same man at 8:00 PM and they would have had no reason to part (setting aside the fact that McMahon ultimately argued that RB was accounted for after 7:15 PM.) Add to that the fact that Collins not only had EB alive after RB arrives at UTSC, but we know that RB was driving his own car that night, no one had ever seen him drive EB's and he had absolutely no reason whatsoever to be driving EB's car or in the driver's seat in the first place.

And this is all without having to deal with the classroom evidence. The classroom attendance would have introduced even more problems for the Crown had they wished to use Collins's evidence because now you not only have EB and RB together, RB going to UTSC, meeting EB later for some bizarre reason at Three 'R' Autobody, but now RB is heading back to EB's classroom to wait for EB who, according to the Crown, was already dead (!), then driving to EB's home to sound the alarm that the woman he has just killed an hour before) is missing (inviting her to call the police) then heading back to UTSC. Collins also would have obliterated the "blood on the shorts" nonsense per MS that LE spent the entire summer of 1990 trying to develop. Speaking of which, what in the world were LE doing spending so much time and effort on the ridiculous "blood on the shorts" theory - and getting MS to buy into it - when the Collins sighting meant there couldn't have actually been any blood on any shorts until after 7:15 PM? Are you not getting the distinct impression that they were pretty much making it up as they went along?