CANADA Canada - Elizabeth Bain, 22, Scarborough, Ont, 19 June 1990 #2

[kemo]

Snively,

Proving someone innocent is often pretty much impossible unless you can prove someone else guilty. In this case, RB’s known movements come close to forming a rock solid alibi, but you have amply demonstrated a senecio that could permit RB to have committed the murder and disposal of the body during periods his whereabouts could not be documented (and, of course, no documentation exists of EG’s movements).

The plot line of a jealous boyfriend catching his girl with another guy, getting into an altercation with said guy that somehow results in the girlfriend getting severely injured, and ending in the two guys working together to coverup the death and dispose of the body is something right out of crime fiction. In real life, I am not aware that anything like that has ever happened. Any examples?

In trying to makes sense of events, I am inclined to apply Occam ‘s Razor which leads me to suspect that EB met up with someone that evening, whose identity she never revealed to anyone, who ended up killing her and disposing of her body. This guy certainly could have been Bernardo, but there is no solid evidence to back it up.

 

[Snively]

There is evidence that Liz did know EG in more than a passing means, from friends of hers. We can certainly place both Rob and EG at the last known location she was seen at the UofT.

There is a window from the Bains back to the university that Rob was unaccounted for. Being home with his parents is his best alibi, but it sure isn't hard to sneak out when everyone is asleep. A Crown attorney and a detective both thought that.

Of course it's a theory, but nobody has been able to explain why EG would try to get a witness to change his statement and "suddenly" remember seeing the guy at a time when it's known Rob wasn't at the gym. Why would someone who barely knows someone stick their nose into a murder investigation, right down to harassing a witness to change his statement? You're just asking for legal trouble doing that. So it sure leaves me to believe either he knew Rob better than anyone has let on or he had a reason to do this. And not once, but twice at least.

As for two people who don't know one another hiding a body after something happens to a third party, you only have to look to how many times this has happened when someone overdoses. I can point you to one in Toronto that happened just a year ago today.

This was a case that should never have had charges laid. There simply isn't enough evidence to convict anyone. Missing body cases are notoriously difficult to prosecute because so much depends on circumstantial evidence. This was no different. Using the wrong and ridiculous timeline was dumb.

 

[eyesonly]

Murder Was The Case

Sessions 1-8 of The Baltovich File are now available. #90-#97.
Two more to come.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Murder Was The Case

Sessions 1-8 of The Baltovich File are now available. #90-#97.
Two more to come.

I’m listening and I have about 100 questions.

It’s a very long and detailed podcast. RB can talk(!)

 

[Lexiintoronto]

I’m listening and I have about 100 questions.

It’s a very long and detailed podcast. RB can talk(!)

Sorry to quote myself, I cannot edit the above post.

I didn’t mean that as a slight. RB is eloquent in the podcast. I’m happy he’s telling his story. I’m impressed that he is as open as he is with what must be a nightmare of a topic.

I hope Dr. Mellor can give his opinion as a criminologist about what went wrong in RB’s trial, and why.

 

[eyesonly]

Murder Was The Case

All ten interview sessions with RB have now been uploaded. #90-#99

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Wondering if the police searched dumpsters or landfill sites in areas of interest at that time.

 

[Snively]

I know Keele Valley landfill were routinely warned to watch for bodies coming in and often on job sites, workers were asked to look around sites. There were also searches that were quite thorough, from industrial sites to parks and retail locations. Unfortunately in an area as easily accessible as Toronto, Durham and York Regions, it's very, very easy to miss someone.

 

[kemo]

I just finished the Podcast and I was pretty impressed. It has reinforced my belief in Rob’s innocence and pretty well confirmed my impression of the situation. Baltovich came off as articulate and sincere and in no way revealed any suggestions of deceit or duplicity. Some new information came out that may be significant but, in no way does it answer the question: “ What happened to Liz?”

I am sure the Crown and the jury came to conclusion that it was the jilted boyfriend; it’s always the jilted boyfriend. The had some eye witnesses to support a plausible narrative of how it all went down but the police must have had a pretty good idea that scenario would have been impossible but the Crown went for it anyway. When it became known that Rob was waiting for Liz’s class to get out and the blood in her car was a result of bleeding near the time of death, the Crown’s theory of the crime became impossible and no evidence could be found to support any alternative theory.

The problem that led to Rob’s prosecution still confounds anyone trying to solve the case now. There just isn’t a satisfactory explanation of this could have happened if Rob didn’t do it. Realistically, the only alternate scenarios are that she was either killed by someone she planned to meet up with or she fell victim to a random predator. Both of these options have problems.

It does sound like Liz went to the campus that afternoon on some false pretense. If she did have a planned liaison with someone she was able to keep it a secret; from her friends, her family and even her diary. It is possible that she met up with this guy to “break things off” and he killed her in a fit of anger. But a man, killing a very petite woman, in a fit of anger would normally involve beating or perhaps choking. Stabbing, or less likely shooting, would be very unusual and would suggest premeditation. Yet, based on the blood in her car, this is what happened.

If Liz was just the victim of a predator she encountered on the campus or the park it raises the question of what was she doing there in the first place and why did said random predator take the risk of disposing of her body in daylight from an area with lots of people around?

Baltovich seems to suspect that there was someone she was afraid of that she she might have arranged to meet up with in a public place is try to settle the issue and he ( or perhaps she) killed Liz. He seems to have no idea who this could have been or why.

Liz’s movements that afternoon/evening are a mystery. There were some witnesses who reported different sightings of her but anytime someone claims to remember encountering a stranger who only later is reported to be involved in a high profile crime, I am very skeptical. Still, they can be useful witnesses at trial. Unfortunately, both the prosecution and the defense are generally more concerned with the “ usefulness” of these witnesses to their case than they are to their accuracy and honesty.

Bernardo is a wildcard in this story. He could have been lurking in the park that day or he could have cultivated a relationship with Liz in order to get her alone in a concealed spot. But, it doesn’t really fit any of his known capers and there is absolutely no evidence of his involvement.

Then there is ex-boyfriend of Liz’s who Baltovich refers to as a “Christian Musician” and Snively calls “ EG”. Hard to say how he fits in.

 

[Snively]

The EG I refer to is not the ex-boyfriend. He was the manager of the gym at the university. Same initials as the ex and same first name, but a different guy. The EG I refer to tried to get a witness to change his timeline when he saw Rob and also "suddenly remembered" a time when he saw Rob even though Rob was at the Bain's at the time.

This EG and Rob both admit they only knew each other in passing, yet he goes to that length to "help"? Nobody does that in a murder case, and it was considered that by the time this occurred. I also have reason to believe Liz and this EG did know each other beyond just saying hello.

There was also no way one single person moved a body in and out of that little car by themselves.

One thing Rob never properly explained was why he removed the diary and there still is a debate whether there were pages missing.

 

[Snively]

Kemo, you are correct about Bernardo not fitting for this. Bernardo didn't start murdering until he was living with Homolka and he was looking for far younger women by this time. There is still a lot of debate whether he even did the killing himself or if it was all Homolka.

As for a family member possibly being involved, it would have been far easier for them to just leave her car near a bus station and the assumption would have been Liz had just run away.

 

[eyesonly]

"One thing Rob never properly explained was why he removed the diary and there still is a debate whether there were pages missing."

Rob never removed "the diary".
He only took a handful of pages on the Wednesday night to see if he could glean anything from them about what might have happened to his girlfriend.
He had the pages returned by Friday the 22nd at the request of Mr B.
There is in fact no missing diary pages. The Crown entered the diary binder into evidence with only the approximate amount of pages as apparently described by EB's sister CB. So the diary binder looked like it was missing a significant amount of pages that the Crown claimed RB took and disposed of, giving the jury the impression of their theory of his after the fact actions of conscience of guilt.
However, RB's appeal lawyers discovered over 400 original diary pages sitting in the Crown files that were excluded from the diary binder they entered into evidence. And around 150 diary pages were sent to the CFS for testing and were never seen from again.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Why would the killer leave EB’s car parked on municipal land across from 3 R Auto body?

In plain view on a street? The killer was risking being seen when parking and leaving the car.

Why not leave it in a park, where the killer could leave under cover of foliage? Or an ally etc. Why there?

 

[eyesonly]

Murder was the case: Lee Mellor;
Thursday at 1 pm, Rob Baltovich and I are recording Ask Rob Anything for our patrons. If you are a patron of MWTC and have a question for Rob, please send it to [email protected] before 1 pm!

I (Lee) am also taking questions for a Fall AMA episode, so feel free to get those to me over the coming weeks.

Hope you've been enjoying the show.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

Murder was the case: Lee Mellor;
Thursday at 1 pm, Rob Baltovich and I are recording Ask Rob Anything for our patrons. If you are a patron of MWTC and have a question for Rob, please send it to [email protected] before 1 pm!

I (Lee) am also taking questions for a Fall AMA episode, so feel free to get those to me over the coming weeks.

Hope you've been enjoying the show.

I’ll get on this tomorrow!

 

[Snively]

Why would the killer leave EB’s car parked on municipal land across from 3 R Auto body?

In plain view on a street? The killer was risking being seen when parking and leaving the car.

Why not leave it in a park, where the killer could leave under cover of foliage? Or an ally etc. Why there?

It really was an excellent place to leave the car. Right across from an auto mechanics where customers cars were often parked and right beside a little park on an industrial cut through street.

Left in a park or in an alley or shopping centre parking lot it would stand out as the only car there. Under trees it would like it was attempt to hide it. Where it was, it was just another car being worked on at a mechanics or being dropped off of waiting to be picked up.

I do think somebody thought about this location for that reason. It was also a known area for kids to park in and at least one witness reported seeing her parked right there near 3R during the evening. It seems her car was used to transport her body and I think the person(s) who moved her, had parked their car in the location where her car was eventually found while they transported her away. First it would guarantee there would be a place to park her car when they got back and it would take the risk out of their own car being noticed while they were driving hers.

In that regards, some theories pointing to the Bain family being involved don't hold up. If this were the case it would have been far better to simply leave her car at any transportation hub parking lot like a train station or bus depot. The obvious assumption would be she simply choose to run away on her own and there would have been very little of an investigation.

 

[Lexiintoronto]

BBM

I'm only assuming that when blood is taken from a live individual intravenously, there is no clotting?

This case really needs that sister to sister DNA comparison - jmo.

Blood taken from a live person does clot.

You may have noticed when having a blood test that vials with different coloured vials may be used.

A green-topped vial contains heparin, an anti-coagulant.

Citrate is a common anti-coagulant used for donated blood.

The donated blood is agitated to mix with the anti-coagulants and other additives:

The blood is usually stored in a flexible plastic bag that also contains sodium citrate, phosphate, dextrose, and adenine. This combination keeps the blood from clotting and preserves it during storage up to 42 days.[52][53][54] Other chemicals are sometimes added during processing.

Blood donation - Wikipedia

 

[Lexiintoronto]

One thing Rob never properly explained was why he removed the diary and there still is a debate whether there were pages missing.

Respectfully snipped by me.

This Canlii document addresses ‘missing’ diary entries and where they were ultimately found:



2018 ONSC 1291 (CanLII) | CanLII

 

[Lexiintoronto]

What is what I’ve circled in red-a pond? Does anyone have any idea how big and deep it is?

 

[Snively]

View attachment 204868

What is what I’ve circled in red-a pond? Does anyone have any idea how big and deep it is?

It's about 200m at it's longest and 75m at it's widest. Not very deep at all. More of a swamp than anything that's been filled by overflow from the river right beside it and storm water empties into it. A few trails around the area.

Colonel Danforth Park was quite thoroughly searched at the time including the storm sewers and there has been quite a bit of work around there throughout the years.