GUILTY Canada - Kienan Hebert, 3, Sparwood BC, 7 Sept 2011 - #2

[SilkySifaka]

I think they are right when they say Kienan was brought back because of the plea.

I think Randall brought him back when he realized that this little boy did have a family who loved him, cared for him and missed him.

That even though his own family wouldn't have cared if he was abducted, this little boy had a family who did.



Is this the same mother who is doing the interviews? Or was he adopted?

http://www.calgaryherald.com/Randal...h+could+talk/5405920/story.html#ixzz1Y1wh09ki

Our views on these things are shaped by our experiences. That is why I have compassion for Randall when so many others don't.

I have seen the whole spectrum. Babies, kids and adults. Adored, loved, abused, neglected, starved, institutionalized, abandoned... all of it.

I have seen what kids like Randall can become if they are given to a loving adoptive family at birth.
I've seen what they can become when they are institutionalized... and I've seen the in-between like Randall.

When my daughter was born with Down syndrome family members reacted differently.

I had worked with kids with disabilities so I was more aware of the current reality and when I knew she was healthy, I was okay.

My Dad, was just thrilled to have a granddaughter.

My Mom, had worked in the state hospital with institutionalized adults and that was all she knew... she freaked out a little.

A family member who had aborted a child with Down syndrome that was due when my daughter was... has lost her family... attempted suicide.
Watching my daughter grow up, realizing what she is missing has haunted her. Her older children hate her for taking that away from them.

A family member who was adopting a child with Down syndrome celebrated, she was SO excited.

Another family member who institutionalized her "child" with Down syndrome when "it" was born... just won't acknowledge my daughter.

All of these people would react differently to Randall... as would people who haven't had experiences with people with disabilities.



I completely agree.

I also totally agree that he doesn't just need to be released because it's not his fault.
But he also doesn't need to be released into the general population like he's Ted Bundy.

He needs to be kept where he cannot hurt children. Where he can get treatment in a contained location. The public needs to be protected.

For the rest of his natural life. We need to make that happen for those who are incurable... and make it a true lifelong sentence.

LE appears to have compassion for Randall... which tells me something... there is a reason for that. Maybe they know he doesn't have evil intentions and just has never gotten the help he needs?

Such a great post! And I agree, for the rest of his natural life. Which means an insanity verdict if there is to be a chance of it happening.

Yet as you say..even LE has shown compassion or seemed to have.

We need to be protected from him, yet he needs protection from himself. Which is differently from how I see most child abductors.

 

[craftybatchy]

I am still trying to process it, just seems odd to me that the police and the lawyers used the same wording. I think that it is along the lines of they (LE and the Canadian equivalent of the DA) are playing into RH to get him to talk about his "story", just so he feel comfortable and gives them more information for a conviction. That story very well could be along the lines that he was trying to save the boy from the same kind of treatment he received as a kid, but we don't know yet.

Somehow, the statement reminds me of some of the media reports that were made during the "Son of Sam" era. I was in my upper teens at the time and didn't live all that far from where he struck.

I believe that LE was working closely with a profiler and a behavior consultant who may have had experience with intellectually disabled adults.

Many adults who have intellectual disabilities/social deficits complain that no one want to listen to them. I have heard many clients begin conversations with 'Can I tell you a story'. It is likely that Hopley liked to tell stories and was always looking for a willing listener. The repeated use of the term ' story ' was probably intended as a trigger.

Hopley began displaying evidence of cognitive/behavioral deficits at an early age. He spent the majority of his late childhood - late teens in foster care. He did have brief visits with his Mother during which she took him shopping . She had 5 other children - all of whom she kept and raised. The mother featured in television and print interviews is his biological mother. He was never adopted.

 

[SilkySifaka]

Mr. Hebert wonders why Hopely did not get help:

But his ire was not directed at Mr. Hopley’s past punishments, but at the failure to hold him and help him to cope with his problems. “[He] needs help and the system didn’t give him the help he needed and because of that … my family got hurt.”

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...remarkable-act-of-forgiveness/article2168237/

 

[Valleyboy]

Accused child abductor kidnapped boy at behest of another person: Landlord


http://www.theprovince.com/news/Acc...st+another+person+landlord/5410158/story.html


SPARWOOD, B.C. — The convicted sex offender accused of abducting a three-year-old B.C. boy may not have been working alone, according to his former landlord.


In an interview with Global News, Cindy Pater said Randall Hopley kidnapped the boy on someone else's behest.


"My gut feeling is he's helping somebody," Pater said. "It's possible someone who can't have children and would like one, this is possibly the only way they would get one, that could be the scenario."


Hopley lived at a trailer park owned by Pater for 15 years, where she says he was friends with another woman at the park — someone she can't name because of the ongoing investigation into Hopley's case. According to Pater, police have requested contact information for the woman.


Hopley was charged with the attempted abduction of a 10-year-old in 2007. Court documents reveal that Hopley told police he was paid $2,800 dollars to kidnap the boy from his foster home by one of the boy's biological parents. The charges were dropped for lack of evidence.


Police have not confirmed any motive in the case.

 

[ClaireNC]

Accused child abductor kidnapped boy at behest of another person: Landlord

This could be another possible reason behind the abduction. Guess we just have to wait and see.

I find it odd that in the beginning of this whole event, the media was reporting that RH was staying with a man with the initials OS. And, that he had come by and paid his rent up front for the next month (or two) the day of the abduction. Something about that he was going to be going away to his court appearance.

Now this CP person is coming in and saying that she is his landlord? There are so many twists and turns in this one. It will be interesting to see how it unfolds.

 

[SilkySifaka]

This could be another possible reason behind the abduction. Guess we just have to wait and see.

I find it odd that in the beginning of this whole event, the media was reporting that RH was staying with a man with the initials OS. And, that he had come by and paid his rent up front for the next month (or two) the day of the abduction. Something about that he was going to be going away to his court appearance.

Now this CP person is coming in and saying that she is his landlord? There are so many twists and turns in this one. It will be interesting to see how it unfolds.

CP was a previous landlord and is only speculating. Again its an example of those in the area looking for other reasons imo.

 

[matou]

I don't believe these stories about Hopley kidnapping kids for other people. No way.

 

[craftybatchy]

This could be another possible reason behind the abduction. Guess we just have to wait and see.

I find it odd that in the beginning of this whole event, the media was reporting that RH was staying with a man with the initials OS. And, that he had come by and paid his rent up front for the next month (or two) the day of the abduction. Something about that he was going to be going away to his court appearance.

Now this CP person is coming in and saying that she is his landlord? There are so many twists and turns in this one. It will be interesting to see how it unfolds.

CP is a former landlord. More recently, RH had been residing in a makeshift mobile home/trailer on property owned by OS.

 

[Thyme]

Shoot me!! I am unable to get my heid around the fact that this guy possesses stealth ninja powers. The whole episode stinks to high heavens...something here [besides Randall Hopley] makes absolutely no sense. .very..very odd.

 

[Dee10]

Excellent catch CB!
Thanks! I hope there is a link to the broadcast tomorrow at some time!!
Now WHY did police think the child would be returned? Certainly it seems they anticipated and hoped for it, but what made them hope for it?? Did they find some evidence in the papers they removed from RH's room at OS's????? A plan? A letter perhaps??

If police secured the house, then this implies to me that police entered first, to check for a suspect and ensure it was safe (while leaving the boy - hopefully gaurded!) sleeping on the couch to be woken by his parent(s)??

Seriously cannot wait til we get the full story on this one!!

Not surprised to hear that suspect studied police response times etc... in previous trial in the 80's said he was aware of what police were doing the entire time. I'd like to interview him (or actually, have LE or Paul Bishop and Mary Hanlan-Stone from Take The $ and Run!).... interview him to find out how he knew, and work towards preventing this from ever happening again!!

Wondergirl, Thanks for posting the link to the news story. http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/briti...9/14/bc-randall-hopley-charges-cranbrook.html

The video is certainly worth watching and contains a little be more information then is in the print version.

One thing the peaks my curiosity is the lawyer's comment about Hopley "has a story to tell." The police used a similar line in one of their pleas to RH to let the boy go.

The story also confirms that it was the police dogs that actually took him down and RH received minor injuries as a result.

Now this is purely rumor, but I read in the comments of one of the stories that LE were looking for a second POI, as a result of information received from the victim. The police did use pictures to help the boy identify who took him.

Edit to add: MRSU, I don't think the place where they hid out has been released to the public yet.

I don't believe these stories about Hopley kidnapping kids for other people. No way.

I don't either, I am not sure I buy the previous one that he intended to sell the child for $2800, and I am not sure that the previous child wasn't molested just because charges didn't stick or the child couldn't testify (sketchy). I never say never, but the psych. report will be interesting...when we ever get to hear about it that is.

 

[MsFacetious]

I believe that LE was working closely with a profiler and a behavior consultant who may have had experience with intellectually disabled adults.

Many adults who have intellectual disabilities/social deficits complain that no one want to listen to them. I have heard many clients begin conversations with 'Can I tell you a story'. It is likely that Hopley liked to tell stories and was always looking for a willing listener. The repeated use of the term ' story ' was probably intended as a trigger.

Hopley began displaying evidence of cognitive/behavioral deficits at an early age. He spent the majority of his late childhood - late teens in foster care. He did have brief visits with his Mother during which she took him shopping . She had 5 other children - all of whom she kept and raised. The mother featured in television and print interviews is his biological mother. He was never adopted.

How did the other 5 kids turn out? Are they successful or do they have records?

It aggravates me to no end... when a biological mother who tossed the kid away early in life... (not talking about adoption at birth here)
and never really raised them... or wanted anything to do with them... then comes back later.

Whether it is a good thing, because they become a huge success story and the biological mother wants a piece of the good fortune...

Or a bad thing... because they have done something wrong and the biological mother wants sympathy for "the most loving" of her children doing something like this.

She has no idea if he was loving... because he would have just been thrilled someone was paying attention to him.
He would have been doing whatever anyone wanted to get them to spend time with him.

I guess you could call that being a loving kid. I tend to think of it as neglected, vulnerable and desperate. :twocents:

 

[Snoopster]

I believe that LE was working closely with a profiler and a behavior consultant who may have had experience with intellectually disabled adults.

<snip>

Couldn't agree more. I truly believe that LE worked with behavioural specialists. They knew Randy, and they wanted to find a way to resolve this the best they could. I would guess that they had an significant positive impact on the outcome of this case. I became aware of the value of these specialists as I followed a couple of recent cases.

I was incredibly impressed with the Ontario Provincial Police (OPP) Behavioural unit and how well they performed in a couple of infamous cases in Ontario over the past couple of years. Sgt Detective Jim Smythe not only personally located 8 y/o Victoria Stafford's body (a stranger abduction/murder), but he also obtained Russell William's confession, in a display of subtle interview tactics that I have never seen the likes of before (even on TV shows)! To any WS'ers who haven't had the opportunity to watch this incredible interrogation display, you MUST check it out. If you have any interest in psychology, I think that you will enjoy watching this...

http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/WFive/20101022/russell-williams-interrogation-101022/

Could behavioural specialists like this have helped out with strategy in Kienan's case? I would think so.

 

[Wondergirl]

This article has many more facts regarding RH's numerous other charges, and details about pictures he kept, the legal system's failings etc.

Photos of Randall Hopley as a child from an album kept by his mother Margaret Fink at her home in Fernie, B.C. September 14, 2011.
John Lehmann/The Globe and Mail

Kienan Hebert&#8217;s alleged abductor could have been in jail through summer

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...e-been-in-jail-through-summer/article2169743/

 

[Wondergirl]

Brothers Arnold (left) and Randall Hopley, seen when Randall was about 12

Randall Hopley&#8217;s mysterious motives

http://www.thestar.com/news/article/1055495

 

[Wondergirl]

New details

He&#8217;s kind,&#8221; said Hopley&#8217;s sometime employer. &#8220;He wouldn&#8217;t hurt a baby.&#8221;

&#8220;He&#8217;s good-hearted, a kind-hearted person,&#8221; Sheets said. &#8220;He would like to have some kids of his own, but he&#8217;s short-circuited somehow.&#8221;

On the afternoon of Sept. 6, the day before the abduction, Hopley drove to Fernie to visit his mother &#8212; something he does regularly, she says.

He was wearing shorts and a T-shirt and seemed normal to her, but he didn&#8217;t stay long, turning down her offer of a cup of tea.

Back in Sparwood, he tinkered for a while on a motorized camper he hoped to sell and then went to bed. He turned out his light at 11:30 p.m., said Sheets.

Sometime during the next eight hours or so, someone drove a car toward the Hebert house and, according to a knowledgeable source, parked on the side of Sparwood Heights Dr. just east of the Elk Valley Highway.

From there, it would have taken only five minutes to walk across a field &#8212; soon to become the 13th fairway of &#8220;a Fred Couples signature&#8221; golf course &#8212; and to enter the Hebert house by either the front or rear doors. Both were unlocked.

Just like that, a child was gone.


http://www.thestar.com/news/article/1055495#article

Hopley&#8217;s mother has listened to the police recording of the 911 call made by the kidnapper and says it contains no reference to a prior arrangement.&#8220;I brought the little boy back,&#8221; says the caller. &#8220;You can find him at his home.&#8221;


He is asked for his name, but simply hangs up.

&#8220;The story of the bogeyman came true,&#8221; said Hebert, the day after Hopley&#8217;s capture.



&#8220;But, in the end, the bad guy wasn&#8217;t really so bad.&#8221;



http://www.thestar.com/news/article/1055495#article

 

[Snoopster]

New details

This article says RH visited his mother regularly, but didn't previous media reports indicate that his mother said she hadn't seen him in a year, when she saw him shortly before Kienan was abducted?

 

[Wondergirl]

Hopley was warned 'police are watching you'

Two-and-a-half months before Randall Hopley allegedly kidnapped a B.C. toddler, a judge warned him that he was being monitored by police and would surely be caught if he tried to commit a crime.

During a sentencing hearing in June after the 46-year-old Sparwood man was convicted of assault for punching a woman outside the local library, Judge Ronald Webb told Hopley that Mounties were keeping a close eye on him.

"You know they are watching," the judge said.

"You know that they are watching you probably more closely than anybody else or as closely as anybody else in the community. If you do something, you are likely to get caught. Keep that in mind. Hopefully we won't see you again."

http://www.ctvbc.ctv.ca/servlet/an/...ning_110916/20110916/?hub=BritishColumbiaHome

Previous victim "scared" and "angry"

Perhaps the most troubling incident in Hopley's criminal history is an attempt to abduct a 10-year-old Sparwood boy in 2008. He admitted to the crime, but charges of unlawful confinement and attempted abduction were stayed.

Instead, Hopley was sentenced to 18 months in jail for break-and-enter.

The sentencing decision in that case was also posted online Friday, and describes in detail the emotional impact of the ordeal on the young victim, a vulnerable child living in foster care.

"He often wakes up during the night, resulting in poor sleeping patterns. He now sleeps with his bedroom door open. He feels that someone is always trying to break into his home. He is sometimes fearful in the community. He is sad. He is angry," Webb wrote in that decision.
"He has explained emotional difficulties that affect his school performance. He cannot get his work done, his teacher gets mad at him, the kids get mad at him, all of which are expected consequences as a result of what has happened."

The boy's foster parents also told the court that they felt responsible for what happened, and another foster child in the house said that he was terrified about the possibility of another break-in.

Hopley claimed that he had been offered payment to kidnap the little boy in order to return him to his birth mother.

The judge said that explanation was simply unacceptable.

http://www.ctvbc.ctv.ca/servlet/an/...ning_110916/20110916/?hub=BritishColumbiaHome

 

[Wondergirl]

First glimpse into Hopley's mountain hideout; Video too

At the end of the video, the reporter says LE removed a brown envelope from RH's home AFTER his arrest. ???

Reporters have been given a first glimpse into the abandoned cabin where abduction suspect Randall Hopley was discovered this week, and found the hideout littered with trash and cigarette butts.

A small amount of food was scattered throughout the cabin, including a carton of apple juice, a bottle of teriyaki sauce and a tub of sour cream.

In the bedroom, small items like socks and videotapes were strewn across the floor, while the closet appeared to be filled with women's clothing. There was no bed, nor any other furniture in the other rooms.

The quarry's manager told reporters that the cabins used to house workers, but the buildings were abandoned during a round of layoffs several years ago.


.

http://www.ctvbc.ctv.ca/servlet/an/...c_hopley_cabin_110915?hub=BritishColumbiaHome



Gallery of Photos:

http://www.ctvbc.ctv.ca/gallery/html/bc_cabin_20110915/photo_0.html

 

[Kamille]

Cigarette butts? Every article about RH indicates that he doesn't smoke. :waitasec:

Woman's clothes?

Is there possibly a woman involved in this? One who wanted a child?

OS indicated that there was a "girlfriend" at one point that "didn't work out". Was RH somehow trying to build a "home" to get this woman back? Complete with a child?

MOO

 

[nao]

From Wondergirl #358
(They are quarry workers cabins that have been abandoned for a few years.)
Clothing could just be left overs that a worker left behind. The cabin looks pretty solid, probably been squatted in by a few people, so could be anybodies stuff.

RH's little trailer, those places are ok for the summer, but for the winter not so much.