Canada - Robert White for building dungeon in kidnap plot, Pickering, Ont, 2011

[Patience]

There was an article in the Toronto Star in November of this year regarding historical homes and how they are being sold cheap if you can move them then you can buy one, or something to that effect.
http://www.thestar.com/news/article...out-for-heritage-homes-in-the-path-of-the-407
Time running out for heritage homes in the path of the 407

 

[~n/t~]

thinking about who would know about this abandoned house since it seems quite concealed by trees ...

1. neighbour
2. golf club member
3. former owner/renter
4. bush party-goer
5. realtor/contractor

the property doesn't appear to be easily accessible (ie) overgrown/blocked driveway so does the person park on the road, therefore drawing attention or does the person move the cement blocks in order to drive in or does the person have another access route through the woods?

I'm also wondering about the trafficking and/or motorcycle gang angle ...

serial killer, child abductor, human trafficker ... I don't like where my mind is on this one

Someone who owns or works for a construction company? They'd have all the tools to build, they'd probably have scoured the area and perhaps have worked on other jobs there. Even if spotted, nobody would question a construction truck or worker? They'd think he was working on the house.

 

[TobyWong*]

thinking about who would know about this abandoned house since it seems quite concealed by trees ...

1. neighbour
2. golf club member
3. former owner/renter
4. bush party-goer
5. realtor/contractor

the property doesn't appear to be easily accessible (ie) overgrown/blocked driveway so does the person park on the road, therefore drawing attention or does the person move the cement blocks in order to drive in or does the person have another access route through the woods?

I'm also wondering about the trafficking and/or motorcycle gang angle ...

serial killer, child abductor, human trafficker ... I don't like where my mind is on this one

#6 golf course employee. at first glance I thought the gray building between the house and golf course was an maintanance garage. and could envision and employee knowing the surrounding land. imo

imo it can't be a passerby. One would have to know it is there. And have time in the area to construct the room.


http://www.canada.com/Discovery+con...ing+builders/5887012/story.html#ixzz1hI99N8so

"I can't get into what was in the room, but the way it was constructed — the time and effort put into it and the materials used — clearly indicated it was a room designed to hold somebody in," Short said.

There is no good reason to have a room that on first glance the police knew it was to keep someone in. I imagine the stuff they are'nt saying are wall or ceiling restaints. Mulitple locks alone can't spell out confinment room.imo

 

[Wendy101]

#6 golf course employee. at first glance I thought the gray building between the house and golf course was an maintanance garage. and could envision and employee knowing the surrounding land. imo

imo it can't be a passerby. One would have to know it is there. And have time in the area to construct the room.


http://www.canada.com/Discovery+con...ing+builders/5887012/story.html#ixzz1hI99N8so

"I can't get into what was in the room, but the way it was constructed — the time and effort put into it and the materials used — clearly indicated it was a room designed to hold somebody in," Short said.

There is no good reason to have a room that on first glance the police knew it was to keep someone in. I imagine the stuff they are'nt saying are wall or ceiling restaints. Mulitple locks alone can't spell out confinment room.imo

Well if the locks are on the outside of the door, what else could it mean?

 

[concentric]

Well if the locks are on the outside of the door, what else could it mean?

For sure, why else? IMO: LE's observation was probably reinforced by something that was found inside of the room. Maybe that is what I have been thinking. Maybe that was what Toby was saying.

Only the perp. or victim(s) would know what things were inside of the room, besides the building materials, locks, etc.

That's what I think LE is holding back.

For instance, in the Jamelske dungeon case, one of the victims (who wasn't believed initially) was asked what was written on the wall.

 

[LadyL]

Well if the locks are on the outside of the door, what else could it mean?

lots of basement doors, esp. ones with an outside access door, have locks on the outside (as, of course, do storage sheds & lockers)

it's the combination of the locks and whatever LE found inside that makes them think it was a confinement room

I'm with Toby, that they probably found wall & ceiling restraints (& I dread to think what, if anything else, they found)

 

[mysteriew]

If we go with the theory that it is a safe house used in transit, they would have to be using that place quite a bit, which means frequent trips. Otherwise why go through the labor and expense of building the room. Where does the highway go and where does it come from?

 

[mysteriew]

thinking about who would know about this abandoned house since it seems quite concealed by trees ...

1. neighbour
2. golf club member
3. former owner/renter
4. bush party-goer
5. realtor/contractor

the property doesn't appear to be easily accessible (ie) overgrown/blocked driveway so does the person park on the road, therefore drawing attention or does the person move the cement blocks in order to drive in or does the person have another access route through the woods?

I'm also wondering about the trafficking and/or motorcycle gang angle ...

serial killer, child abductor, human trafficker ... I don't like where my mind is on this one

I'm afraid you will have to open that list up a bit. These are historical homes and they have been trying to decide what to do with them. Inspections had to be done and decisions to be made on what to do with them. I haven't looked, but I have a feeling that this isn't the first time the houses have been in the paper.

Plus the gov. took all the land to work on the highway, and it has been in progress for a long time. I have a feeling that a lot of people knew there were a lot of empty homes in that area. And that all of them were owned by the government. Which means that neighbors wouldn't be all that concerned if they did see something going on there.

 

[Dewey2Me1MoThyme]

If we go with the theory that it is a safe house used in transit, they would have to be using that place quite a bit, which means frequent trips. Otherwise why go through the labor and expense of building the room. Where does the highway go and where does it come from?

BBM We know it was not there a year ago, so maybe the intention was to use it frequently, but it could have been discovered before whomever got a chance to use it. I wonder how long LE sat on this waiting, if at all.

 

[TobyWong*]

Well if the locks are on the outside of the door, what else could it mean?

If I saw just locks on a door, I would think someone did'nt want someone in that door. Because LE made a point of saying they would'nt eleborate on what eles in that room made them confident it was a room for confinement, I'm thinking not just blank walls, but tie downs of sorts. If it was just a 4 walled room, they could'nt really say what it was used for.

http://www.canada.com/Discovery+con...ing+builders/5887012/story.html#ixzz1hI99N8so

"We are aware of these homes in the past . . . there's been music videos shot up there, amateur filmmakers that have gone onto the property," he said. "We are aware that's occurred before and whether this is another case of that, is it possible? We hope so."

It says "these" homes. Not sure if it is this house or other historic homes in the area. I can't see a student filmaker getting that eleborate, without permission. Art teachers in my past have always made sure to tell us not to trespass, get permission, if we wanted to shoot (camera) something.

Ooohh I bet it's creepy for the inspectors, checking abandoned properties. Especialy when they knew this one had just been checked a year ago. Walk in and see newly constructed room for confinment. I say this knowing full well that I love looking around old properties like this. I was bummed when the film crew came to the farm house just behind us. For whatever purpose they took off (w/ permission) the old porch, they trampled the surrounding fauna, now awaiting demolition.

 

[~n/t~]

The fact that they have homicide involved confuses me. I don't understand why they went public with this a month later. Why go public at all? What does this all mean? Did they find any evidence of a crime? :waitasec:

"It's bizarre," Durham homicide Detective Chuck Nash said of what police are describing as a confinement room, discovered late last month in a house in the vicinity of Concession 7 and the York-Durham Line. "It is a spooky scene."

http://www.durhamregion.com/news/cr...ate-dungeon-discovered-in-pickering-farmhouse

 

[~n/t~]

Ignore my previous post. Just found this.

About five houses burn down every year — all are suspicious, according to Gord Ferguson, Pickering’s deputy fire chief. Teenagers party in other abandoned homes and someone recently built a dungeon in a property that has been boarded up since 2005. No one was killed or tortured there, but the police have no one in custody.

http://www.thestar.com/news/article/1106759

 

[hambirg]

That is so creepy. I wonder what else, if anything, they found, because they think it was for confinement.

My honest first thought was drug trafficking. If somebody had millions of dollars worth of drugs they would probably want to lock it up like Ft Knox too.

I like that thought better than a dungeon. :toocreepy:

 

[Hazel]

The fact that they have homicide involved confuses me. I don't understand why they went public with this a month later. Why go public at all? What does this all mean? Did they find any evidence of a crime? :waitasec:

http://www.durhamregion.com/news/cr...ate-dungeon-discovered-in-pickering-farmhouse

I am with you n/t - was wondering the same - why go public? why not just keep a close eye on the property and see who went there? Don't know if it would be possible to mount some tiny surveillance cameras, very well hidden inside or outside, or maybe even mounted on surrounding trees.
Or maybe I watch too many CSI shows

The 'materials used" statement made me think of 'sound-proofing' material !!

I think my imagination is running wild on this one.

 

[sherbetjello]

Random fires in/of homes in this area, and a chamber built in this abanonded home just this year?......

Sounds related.

If I was LE I would be checking many other abanonded homes.

First thing I though about when skimming through articles was human trafficking.

If there is no evidence of a crime in this chamber there at least has to be some DNA somewhere. Has to be.

 

[mysteriew]

The thing I keep wondering about though is the fact that they actually spent the time, labor and expense of building a room.

Why not just board up one of the empty rooms, put a lock on a closet or just attach restraints on the wall? That room is important to someone for some reason.

And nt I hadn't caught that about the homicide cop. Why do they have a homicide cop on this case? Unless they are suspecting something more than a filmmaker.

Could they have found some evidence that it had been occupied at one point? Maybe some blood, but not enough to say someone died there?

 

[No_Stone_Unturned]

My first thought was Paul Teale/Bernardo's house where he'd placed black-out paper over all of the windows, including the windows to the basement. At that time, neighbours were wondering WHY the windows were all blackened out.

We later learned the truth.

Back on topic - could this dungeon thing be used for the same types of crimes Bernardo was committing?

Just a thought....... :twocents:

 

[concentric]

Random fires in/of homes in this area, and a chamber built in this abanonded home just this year?......

Sounds related.

If I was LE I would be checking many other abanonded homes.

First thing I though about when skimming through articles was human trafficking.

If there is no evidence of a crime in this chamber there at least has to be some DNA somewhere. Has to be.

-----------

Yes, we were discussing transit of human beings and this possibly being a temporary holding area until the next transport to take them even further away...

Just one example, (that I think was operative, even in the past, with missing children cases):

Let's say someone in power has the agenda of abducting a child from the U.S. to another country. This person dispatches someone to abduct the child, or was the abductor? They would find in necessary to travel as far as possible from the 1st crime scene (abduction site), probably cross the border, and have a "rest station" until the next leg of the journey begins. They would need a holding area for multiple reasons.

And, I agree. I was saying earlier that there probably were fingerprints, DNA etc. at least of the builder(s), if it hadn't yet been put to use.

Maybe some cold cases can be solved by figuring out who built this. This may have not been a first project.

My guess is that LE is soft-pedaling their request for someone to come forward and admit they built it, by saying perhaps it could have been intended for some other "innocent" purpose, like a movie set.

If it was intended to be a "movie set," then it would have had to be planned by amateurs, who did not understand the need for permits, as other sleuths here have pointed out.

And, if it was amateur indie filmmakers, where the heck would they get the money for building materials, etc.?

 

[SnoopyDoobyDoo]

<modsnip>

Somebody upthread mentioned the drugs possibility- I used to live in that general area and drug trafficking was a huge problem along the Quebec-Windsor corridor at the time (unsure if it still is), so I cannot see LE calling it a confinement room without other evidence such as restraints.

 

[Dogface]

I haven't lived in Ont since the early to mid 70s, but at that time there were several motorcycle gangs in and around Toronto, Oshawa, and I've been told near the Sault. Do any of you locals know if those gangs, Devil's Deciple's, Satan's Choice etc are still active. Depending on who you talked to back then, the gangs were "clubs" or "Notorious". Seems there was no happy medium on their activities. I also believe there was a Hell's Angels chapter or two in southern Ontario as well.

This is EXACTLY what my first thought was.