CANADA - shooter in RCMP vehicle & uniform, 22 killed (plus perp), Portapique, NS, 18 April 2020 #2

[Kent]

Can anyone confirm - the closest police detachment responsible for Portapique is in Bible Hill? If so, that’s 41 km away. This obviously is a very small police station, population less than 9000. During one of the early RCMP press conferences, I also recall it mentioned officers from other police detachments in NS were called in for support. But they’d be posted even further away. Portapique to Halifax is 128km. .....just getting these straight in my head because it’s unrealistic that Portapique was swarming with police officers the minute the first 911 call was made..

As posters here familiar with northern NS have already said, this by no means was similar to police response and investigation of a crime scene in a highly populated urban area.

Yes, Bible Hill is the closest detachment - the first officers on the scene would have been dispatched from Bible Hill. You can see on Google Maps street view that it's a relatively large detachment for a rural area, but on a Saturday night they would have had only a handful of officers on duty. There may have been a car or two available in Millbrook or Parrsboro, but the bulk of the officers would have had to drive from Enfield, Amherst, Pictou, Halifax, Moncton, etc. and some had to be called in from their homes.

 

[susiQ]

I would like some clarity on this. At the press conference the other day it was stated that a third mock cruiser was located at a residence belonging to the killer in Halifax. However I believe I also read it reported that a cruiser was parked at his denture clinic, which someone mentioned he lived above, in Dartmouth.

So was the car at the clinic in Dartmouth or a residence in Halifax?

Here's a video link that shows a white vehicle parked at his business. 18 sec. mark:

 

[BearCatSafari]

At the press conference, they said the 3rd vehicle was located at his residence in the Halifax Regional Municipality. His denture clinic in Dartmouth was also his residence, and Dartmouth is within the Halifax Regional Municipality.

So they're one and the same?

 

[Alethea]

An Amber Alert involves citizens watching out for a specific vehicle in order to report the sighting to police.

Do people really want provincial-wide emergency alerts about potential shooters who might be in their area without it based on any factual information? What then, people throughout a province would be asked to lock their doors and hide inside? Aside from the possibility the suspect might’ve been driving a police car and wearing a uniform, people do have the right to defend themselves. Who are they being asked to protect themselves from? Anyone who they think might be the shooter, including a police officer? Minimizing accidental panicked and pandemonium in general is one reason why I think Emergency Alerts should only be issued with precise information respective to the location at risk, including descriptive/identifiable information.

If the RCMP had issued Emergency Alerts last summer when the two suspects were fleeing from BC given all the false sightings in Ontario, if any of those people had access to guns I wonder how many innocent people would’ve been shot?

SBM: yes that’s exactly what I want. If they sent out an alert that there’s a potential shooter/arsonist on the loose, Lilian likely would not have gone for a walk and Kristen (according to her husband) would not have gone into work. I would want the information and be able to make my own choices about how to protect myself or not. I certainly wouldn’t open the door to a stranger if I knew there was a potential murderer on the loose.

More information is not a bad thing. We get severe weather warnings all winter and rarely get more than our usual snow accumulations. What’s the ratio of tornado sirens to devastating tornado? The idea is to give people the opportunity to prepare ahead of time to minimize the damage in a worst case scenario.

The fact is LE and political leadership are always second guessed. IMO the leaders at the top didn’t want to “panic” nervous people and thought the shooter was likely dead since the rampage ended when LE arrived. That’s a reasonable assumption though unfortunately it was wrong.

In a situation like this I think the alert should have went out. If the shooter died in the fire, LE would have been able to defend their decision to send the alert by pointing to the 13 murder victims and 3-5 burned homes as the reason for the alert.

 

[susiQ]

So they're one and the same?

GW had two practices, I understand. One in Halifax and the other in Dartmouth which was also his residence.

 

[Kent]

So they're one and the same?

Yes, that's correct. He did apparently have a second office in Halifax, but he lived in Dartmouth and his car was found there.

 

[Marysmith]

The perp has also set numerous residences on fire. So shelter in place might not have been the most prudent thing to say either... But I don’t know what the best thing to do was... I believe the RCMP did the best they could at the time with the ever changing information that they had.

 

[1214SD]

Police show up.. there's a live victim who was shot while driving whom tells police the shooter appeared to be driving a police vehicle. At that point in time, right away, that is what they knew. All of this interviewing of non injured people and figuring out who the shooter might be, and where he lived and what kind and how many vehicles he had and how many properties he owned in how many locations and which vehicles were registered or licensed or not licensed, etc... would have been part of the investigation that was to come following their arrival on scene. Should they wait until they figure all of that out before alerting the public and other police about a mass murderer unaccounted for who is reported to be in a police vehicle?

 

[ab01]

MOO

"EMERGENCY ALERT!!!
Active shooter in the Portapique Area. Multiple gunshot victims and numerous structure fires. Gunman reported to be driving a vehicle resembling a police cruiser. Gunman has not been located. Take shelter indoors until further updates."

Just my take on what I would like to see if such a situation ever broke out in my area.
MOO

This is a perfect example of what should have been posted!

There were multiple structure fires

Multiple victims shot and found in multiple locations in Portapique area

No confirmation that the gunman was still in the area.

The fact his house was burning and his known vehicles were there is not confirmation of public safety. There is a threat until it can be 100 percent confirmed that there is no longer a threat!

The public had a right to be notified that there was a mass killing situation and the killer had not yet been located.

social media just doesn’t cut it, especially in very rural cottage country jmo

Would it have definitely saved lives? Maybe, maybe not.

I know if I was the pregnant victims husband I would be mad as heck too! And I would be even more enraged if someone tried to tell me there is only one person to blame and it’s the gunman.

I’m not sure why people think that both can’t be true, the gunman is ultimately to blame, but LE doesn’t just get a free pass in doing their jobs! If mistakes were made mistakes were made! There’s no free passes Imo and decisions can often have life altering consequences! Jmo

Did the public have a right to be notified of potential danger?!? Absolutely!!

To protect and serve

 

[Alethea]

This is a perfect example of what should have been posted!

There were multiple structure fires

Multiple victims shot and found in multiple locations in Portapique area

No confirmation that the gunman was still in the area.

The fact his house was burning and his known vehicles were there is not confirmation of public safety.

The public had a right to be notified that there was a mass killing situation and the killer had not yet been located.

social media just doesn’t cut it, especially in very rural cottage country jmo

Would it have definitely saved lives? Maybe, maybe not.

I know if I was the pregnant victims husband I would mad as heck too! And I would be even more enraged if someone tried to tell me there is only one person to blame and it’s the gunman.

I’m not sure why people think that both can’t be true, the gunman is ultimately to blame, but LE doesn’t just get a free pass in doing their jobs! If mistakes were made mistakes were made! There’s no free passes Imo and decisions can often have life altering consequences! Jmo

Did the public have a right to be notified of potential danger?!? Absolutely!!

To protect and serve

What bothers me is I don’t see a real downside to over-warning in this situation. It’s not a boy-who-cried-wolf risk: you have multiple murders and fires so there IS a real danger.

The “downside” to issuing the alert is personal and reputational damage to the official who ordered the alert if it ended up being unnecessary. I don’t think that’s ever a good reason. The upside of saving people’s lives who were shot dead in the street or in their cars greatly outweighs the risk of unnecessarily worrying people. Again, this started with 13 murders - it is right and appropriate that people be upset and worried when they learn of it.

I would not be surprised if it turns out the official responsible for making the call couldn’t be reached at night or something like that. It’s understandable from a human perspective, something like this has never happened before there. But it’s still an organizational failing that cost at least 2 people their lives IMO

 

[TrishLiv]

This is a perfect example of what should have been posted!

There were multiple structure fires

Multiple victims shot and found in multiple locations in Portapique area

No confirmation that the gunman was still in the area.

The fact his house was burning and his known vehicles were there is not confirmation of public safety.

The public had a right to be notified that there was a mass killing situation and the killer had not yet been located.

social media just doesn’t cut it, especially in very rural cottage country jmo

Would it have definitely saved lives? Maybe, maybe not.

I know if I was the pregnant victims husband I would mad as heck too! And I would be even more enraged if someone tried to tell me there is only one person to blame and it’s the gunman.

I’m not sure why people think that both can’t be true, the gunman is ultimately to blame, but LE doesn’t just get a free pass in doing their jobs! If mistakes were made mistakes were made! There’s no free passes Imo and decisions can often have life altering consequences! Jmo

Did the public have a right to be notified of potential danger?!? Absolutely!!

To protect and serve

For debating purposes only- okay here's mine:

Emergency Alert- Be advised of multiple shots fired and fully engulfed structure fires in the area of Portapique. Police are working to locate the perpetrator(s) however have not been able to, at this time, and have possibly fled the scene. We are advising all residents to stay indoors and use extreme caution as the shooter, a white male, was seen driving a mock police vehicle and possibly wearing a police uniform. He is considered armed and dangerous.

If a tweet can pass for an update then its odd to me that we would need extensive details to alert the (non-tweeting) public.

 

[Satchie]

This is a perfect example of what should have been posted!

There were multiple structure fires

Multiple victims shot and found in multiple locations in Portapique area

No confirmation that the gunman was still in the area.

The fact his house was burning and his known vehicles were there is not confirmation of public safety.

The public had a right to be notified that there was a mass killing situation and the killer had not yet been located.

social media just doesn’t cut it, especially in very rural cottage country jmo

Would it have definitely saved lives? Maybe, maybe not.

I know if I was the pregnant victims husband I would be mad as heck too! And I would be even more enraged if someone tried to tell me there is only one person to blame and it’s the gunman.

I’m not sure why people think that both can’t be true, the gunman is ultimately to blame, but LE doesn’t just get a free pass in doing their jobs! If mistakes were made mistakes were made! There’s no free passes Imo and decisions can often have life altering consequences! Jmo

Did the public have a right to be notified of potential danger?!? Absolutely!!

To protect and serve

As was stated, it's never been the case that Canadians have been alerted to an ongoing crime by a provincial alert system. It just isn't police procedure.

Should all of Ontario be alerted whenever a gunman is loose in Toronto - or should even all Toronto residents? I think they'd have a strong opinions about that, too.

I think this was a unique crime, because it was an area where this type of crime is unprecedented. Of course people are upset, they have a right to be upset. I think blaming police is an unfortunate response, it's scapegoating people who did their damndest to protect people, putting their own lives at risk, and yet, instead of gratitude, people say 'not good enough'.

 

[ab01]

What bothers me is I don’t see a real downside to over-warning in this situation. It’s not a boy-who-cried-wolf risk: you have multiple murders and fires so there IS a real danger.

The “downside” to issuing the alert is personal and reputational damage to the official who ordered the alert if it ended up being unnecessary. I don’t think that’s ever a good reason. The upside of saving people’s lives who were shot dead in the street or in their cars greatly outweighs the risk of unnecessarily worrying people. Again, this started with 13 murders - it is right and appropriate that people be upset and worried when they learn of it.

I would not be surprised if it turns out the official responsible for making the call couldn’t be reached at night or something like that. It’s understandable from a human perspective, something like this has never happened before there. But it’s still an organizational failing that cost at least 2 people their lives IMO

I agree and I don’t see why it’s not ok to ask these difficult questions, they need to be asked, they need to be investigated and changes likely need to be made about how these situations are handled in the future. There was at the very least a communication breakdown at very high levels of a few agencies imo

just to be clear I’m not leveling blame at first responders (boots on the ground etc)

But someone needed to make the decision to alert the public of potential danger! And the fact it didn’t happen was an absolute failure imo

 

[1214SD]

Just to be completely in line with what the RCMP have stated, the 4th vehicle was registered but not plated. The press conference video clip is here - skip to 47:35:

The three other vehicles were plated, so they had to also be registered (it's my understanding that you can’t plate a vehicle in Nova Scotia without first registering it, right? . So, unless I’m missing something, there were four vehicles registered under his name, no? Why did the RCMP background search Supt. Campbell refers to (48:03 of Supt. Campbell’s 4/24 press conference video) on Saturday night only turn up three? (Is it possible the fourth was registered under someone else’s name?…the girlfriend?… a family member?)…I don’t mean to belabor the point, but I would hope that knowing one vehicle was unaccounted for on Saturday night would have prompted the RCMP to issue an emergency alert, which would likely have saved at least some of the nine people who were killed on Sunday.

 

[ab01]

As was stated, it's never been the case that Canadians have been alerted to an ongoing crime by a provincial alert system. It just isn't police procedure.

Should all of Ontario be alerted whenever a gunman is loose in Toronto - or should even all Toronto residents? I think they'd have a strong opinions about that, too.

I think this was a unique crime, because it was an area where this type of crime is unprecedented. Of course people are upset, they have a right to be upset. I think blaming police is an unfortunate response, it's scapegoating people who did their damndest to protect people, putting their own lives at risk, and yet, instead of gratitude, people say 'not good enough'.

Maybe it should be in the future

I believe they have the ability to just send out a provincial wide alert. I.e. just Nova Scotia jmo

And in a mass casualty incident yes I believe they should

 

[MistyWaters]

Yes, Bible Hill is the closest detachment - the first officers on the scene would have been dispatched from Bible Hill. You can see on Google Maps street view that it's a relatively large detachment for a rural area, but on a Saturday night they would have had only a handful of officers on duty. There may have been a car or two available in Millbrook or Parrsboro, but the bulk of the officers would have had to drive from Enfield, Amherst, Pictou, Halifax, Moncton, etc. and some had to be called in from their homes.

Thank you for your response.

 

[Alethea]

As was stated, it's never been the case that Canadians have been alerted to an ongoing crime by a provincial alert system. It just isn't police procedure.

Should all of Ontario be alerted whenever a gunman is loose in Toronto - or should even all Toronto residents? I think they'd have a strong opinions about that, too.

I think this was a unique crime, because it was an area where this type of crime is unprecedented. Of course people are upset, they have a right to be upset. I think blaming police is an unfortunate response, it's scapegoating people who did their damndest to protect people, putting their own lives at risk, and yet, instead of gratitude, people say 'not good enough'.

This is not an ordinary crime, this is the worst mass shooting in your country’s history. And it didn’t happen at once: it happened in two distinct waves with the people murdered on the second day unaware of what happened the night before because of the lack of an alert.

Amber alerts started when people looked at what could be done better after a tragic kidnapping. That’s why it’s important to look at the facts and see what can be improved without getting defensive.

I think everyone discussing this has been going out of their way to be clear they are not criticizing the brave first responders who did their best rushing into this unprecedented crisis. Heck, the Halifax PD social media person is a hero and may have prevented deaths if people were aware of the shooter and stayed inside because of that person’s fantastic alerts.

But if I lived in NS - and we live only a few hours away - I would want to know who made the decision to not send out an alert while the Halifax PD was tweeting and begging people to stay inside. That’s not finding a scapegoat or being cruel, that’s understanding what happened and why.

 

[paganini]

...

Of course hindsight is going to be 20/20 and easy to criticize after the fact.

I disagree that alerts should have been sent out with the single statement from the initial survivor, especially without knowing what was said to police initially. When police had solid/concrete/documented evidence the next morning, alerts were issued (though the emergency system should have been utilized).

I agree with Josh - my reading of this has been that there is a single road that allows egress and exit. Along there, they encounter the wounded witness who said he'd been shot by someone driving what looked like a police car. My assumption has been that there was no reason to think the shooter had driven out on that road before the police encountered the wounded witness. They soon learned the likely identity of the shooter. They accounted for all of his known vehicles. They thought either they had him contained, or he was dead. If he was contained, he had to be on foot because the police had the area contained and he hadn't left through their road block in any vehicle (such as one stolen from another property).

Additionally, I assume, given there are about 100 year-round residents as well as empty houses and cottages, the police must have been doing a systematic house-to-house search. I think it was reasonable for them to believe they were dealing with a murder / suicide.

 

[MistyWaters]

Maybe it should be in the future

I believe they have the ability to just send out a provincial wide alert. I.e. just Nova Scotia jmo

And in a mass casualty incident yes I believe they should

I think this is something that will be discussed in the future with specific parameters set. As for me, not that I live on the edge - unless there’s a known dangerous threat in the area where I work or live, I’d prefer not to receive a “might be” alert, requesting that I hide.

ETA - In this particular case the perpetrator unexpectedly travelled to a different location and commenced his violent acts again almost 12 hours later. Police are not always able to immediately arrest violent suspects so another question would be - for what length of time is it reasonable to request people to seek cover from a non-identifiable suspect via Emergency Alerts?

 

[paganini]

Two of the things I wonder about -

1) A trivial point, but given what a perfectionist he is, I'm surprised he didn't put a plate on the car. I realize there weren't a lot of cars out and about that would see him, but I find cars without plates catch my eye and I then start looking for the temp certificate....

2) Information released has previously said that the police first arrived 12 minutes after the first 911 call, and that they arrived at 1026. They have never said from where the first 911 call came. They've indicated they received many, many more after that. My question is: How did he manage to create such mayhem before anyone called 911? Obviously, he fired a lot of shots, and I've seen several people say why that might not have been reported. But, how did he manage to do all this and to set all those buildings ablaze? The two older sons, when interviewed, said their parents were both in their pajamas when found, so presumably they didn't die at 6PM, but I really wonder how early all of this started .... before he went back and set the fires ...