CANADA - shooter in RCMP vehicle & uniform, 22 killed (plus perp), Portapique, NS, 18 April 2020 #2

[Alethea]

With respect, often there’s public criticism when Amber Alerts are not issued and usually that’s because the specific criteria isn’t met, which includes naming an identifiable vehicle with its licence plate number.

If the same criteria were applied to Shooter alerts, police indeed faced difficulty in knowing what vehicle the suspect was driving as 3 different vehicles that we know of were involved over a very short period of time on the Sunday.

Sadly, I don’t think there is one easy answer in regard to prevention.

I didn’t say an Amber Alert should have been issued, I said an emergency alert containing the same information contained in the Halifax PD tweets should have been sent.

The Amber Alert system is a resounding success and has saved the lives of hundreds of children. Just because it is occasionally criticized doesn’t mean it should be abolished. I don’t understand the comparison you’re making.

 

[otto]

Even if they were told to stay inside, wouldn’t they have opened the door to an apparent RCMP?
If the perps name were out there as a POE, I think fewer people would have opened the door. They knew his name Saturday night.

Of course they would have opened the door to an officer.

We have one man stating that he would not have allowed his wife to go out if he'd known there was a shooter. She may have decided that she was going out anyway - since we live in a world where women do not need a man's permission to go out.

 

[otto]

I didn’t say an Amber Alert should have been issued, I said an emergency alert containing the same information contained in the Halifax PD tweets should have been sent.

The Amber Alert system is a resounding success and has saved the lives of hundreds of children. Just because it is occasionally criticized doesn’t mean it should be abolished. I don’t understand the comparison you’re making.

Amber alert notifications are not well-received in Canada. Alternatives are a report on the news, which should have happened as soon as RCMP began twitter reports. That's the role of the media - to pay attention to RCMP alerts and report the news.

"It’s also meant a loss of sleep for potentially millions of people who have been woken up by the shrill alarm that goes with it, leading to a growing call for the system to be overhauled.

It was only a year ago that the Canadian system changed to make it mandatory that all alerts must go out on all devices. So far this year Ontario has had six alerts, five of which ended with the abducted child being returned home. A sixth led to an arrest, but only after a 41-year old Toronto-area man was charged in the death of his 11-year-old daughter.
...

But for all its successes, middle-of-the-night alerts have led to 911 operators being besieged by angry callers furious at being woken up.
...

A University of Nevada study conducted over a decade ago determined that Amber Alerts accomplished far less than claimed by law enforcement. It determined that most cases involved a family member and played no role in the return of abducted children. The majority of its success was in child custody fights in which there was, statistically, a lower risk of harm to the child."
​

Calls for changes to Amber Alert system getting louder

 

[Alethea]

Amber alert notifications are not well-received in Canada. Alternatives are a report on the news, which should have happened as soon as RCMP began twitter reports. That's the role of the media - to pay attention to RCMP alerts and report the news.

"It’s also meant a loss of sleep for potentially millions of people who have been woken up by the shrill alarm that goes with it, leading to a growing call for the system to be overhauled.

It was only a year ago that the Canadian system changed to make it mandatory that all alerts must go out on all devices. So far this year Ontario has had six alerts, five of which ended with the abducted child being returned home. A sixth led to an arrest, but only after a 41-year old Toronto-area man was charged in the death of his 11-year-old daughter.
...

But for all its successes, middle-of-the-night alerts have led to 911 operators being besieged by angry callers furious at being woken up.
...

A University of Nevada study conducted over a decade ago determined that Amber Alerts accomplished far less than claimed by law enforcement. It determined that most cases involved a family member and played no role in the return of abducted children. The majority of its success was in child custody fights in which there was, statistically, a lower risk of harm to the child."
​

Calls for changes to Amber Alert system getting louder

People aren’t watching the news at midnight or on the weekends. People don’t check Twitter religiously. The RCMP said itself at a PC that an alert was being “worked up the chain” - meaning they obviously thought it should go out but could not get management approval on a Saturday night.

Again, I don’t think it’s appropriate to compare an abhorrent mass casualty event to everyday crime. Survey Canadians in NS and ask if they would have liked to know on Saturday night there was an active mass shooter evading police and I’m going to bet most wouldn’t complain about the inconvenience. The system is already in place, it just wasn’t used because of red tape.

 

[ab01]

I agree. The perp did what he could to confuse LE and make it harder to track.
However, I also agree that 3 victims may not have left their homes if they knew but others could have sheltered in their basements and perished in a fire or been shot when they walked out...
It was a nightmare situation for everyone.
I believe that changes will be made and LE in Nova Scotia will learn things that they could have done differently and change protocols - which hopefully will never be needed.

I believe the only homes that were burned were those that were purposely targeted. I'm not sure I know of any homes that were torched and people weren't there. In fact at one home a targeted couple was saved bc they hid and the shooter didn't think they were home. No additional lives would have been sacrificed by issuing a shelter in place warning IMO

But some absolutely may have been saved, I guess its a balance of how much inconvenience is worth when comparing it to saving an actual human life?

 

[joshmxpx]

People aren’t watching the news at midnight or on the weekends. People don’t check Twitter religiously. The RCMP said itself at a PC that an alert was being “worked up the chain” - meaning they obviously thought it should go out but could not get management approval on a Saturday night.

Again, I don’t think it’s appropriate to compare an abhorrent mass casualty event to everyday crime. Survey Canadians in NS and ask if they would have liked to know on Saturday night there was an active mass shooter evading police and I’m going to bet most wouldn’t complain about the inconvenience. The system is already in place, it just wasn’t used because of red tape.

Where's your source that they were preparing an Alert Saturday night?

How do we know they weren't preparing it Sunday morning when they had the verified vehicle info?

 

[Satchie]

I think perhaps this could be solved if everyone who wants to be alerted to crimes, subscribes to the appropriate RCMP twitter account(s). That way, you get continuous, detailed info, as per the tweets posted April 18th and 19th.
RCMP, Nova Scotia (@RCMPNS) on Twitter

Presumably, that's why it was set up. Is it RCMP's fault that people can't be bothered to use it? Why aren't people saying, gee, I wish I'd subscribed to that, I'll do it right now?

 

[ab01]

I didn’t say an Amber Alert should have been issued, I said an emergency alert containing the same information contained in the Halifax PD tweets should have been sent.

The Amber Alert system is a resounding success and has saved the lives of hundreds of children. Just because it is occasionally criticized doesn’t mean it should be abolished. I don’t understand the comparison you’re making.

Yeah the amber alert is a totally different system. apples to oranges

 

[Marp]

I didn’t say an Amber Alert should have been issued, I said an emergency alert containing the same information contained in the Halifax PD tweets should have been sent.

The Amber Alert system is a resounding success and has saved the lives of hundreds of children. Just because it is occasionally criticized doesn’t mean it should be abolished. I don’t understand the comparison you’re making.

Just to clarify: In Canada currently an Amber Alert is issued in the same manner as any other emergency alert. Interrupting television, radio and loud cell phone alarms. It’s a fairly new service here. Tornadoes usually happen in southwestern Ontario I think and I’m not sure how they notify those people.

 

[ab01]

Of course they would have opened the door to an officer.

We have one man stating that he would not have allowed his wife to go out if he'd known there was a shooter. She may have decided that she was going out anyway - since we live in a world where women do not need a man's permission to go out.

In my household we discuss the seriousness of situations, if my wife says she didn't think it was safe to go out bc there was and emergency alert issued I would likely stay home. And I believe she likely would as well, In fact she just confirmed that she would. Additionally no matter what one decides it doesn't change the fact that they were owed that information

 

[paganini]

I don't think this is the time for a special interest group to be seeking attention in the context of a mass murder that is completely unlike the École Polytechnique massacre in 1989.

I don't think this is a matter of a "special interest group" "seeking attention". I think there is a very clear argument to be made that there is a link between his apparent rage against the female partner and many of the murders. There is often a link between domestic violence (men against women) and multiple murders. For examples, read the article linked to this discussion.

Last weekend's rampage apparently began with his arguing with her and then beating her badly (according to what police have reported about her injuries). He seems to have motives for killing others in Portapique (such as Lisa and the Tucks) and the couple on Hunter Road. Those may have been nothing to do with the female partner. Or those murders may have had a lot to do with her if they were people she considered to be her friends, or people who had expressed their concern for her to him. Gina Goulet had turned down his offer of a job a year before. Why? He intentionally shot and killed 3 random women. The men he killed during that time were approaching him, getting in his way - like Mr. Bagley, Joey, the brother in Portapique, and the wounded fellow in Portapique.

The two others he grabbed as targets were RCMP, such as the wounded officer and Const. Stevenson. What we don't know, if whether he had access to police radio communication, and using that was actually targeting them - traveling to their meet-up spot - or if he simply happened upon one and then the other which is entirely likely.

Except for Joey, Mr. Bagley, the brother and the wounded fellow leaving Portapique, it seems entirely possible that the others died as the result of some grudge he was carrying against them, or one of them in the house, and as for the 3 random women, I think it likely the grudge was linked to them being female.

 

[MistyWaters]

Of interest, this link refers to Active Shooter Alerts in the United States. It’s appears somewhat different than the automated Emergency Alert system we have in Canada.

“This page describes what to do in an active shooter event. Remember during an active shooting to RUN. HIDE. FIGHT.”
Active Shooter | Ready.gov

Be Informed

• Sign up for an active shooter training.
• If you see something, say something to the authorities right away.
• Sign up to receive local emergency alerts and register your contact information with any work-sponsored alert system.
• Be aware of your environment and any possible dangers.

..more....

 

[otto]

Where's your source that they were preparing an Alert Saturday night?

How do we know they weren't preparing it Sunday morning when they had the verified vehicle info?

RCMP released information about a shooter on Saturday night. We've heard that many people don't use twitter, wifi is intermittent, and some don't use cell phones. That means that good old fashioned news reporting has to be used. Local news outlets should have announced that there was a shooter on Saturday night. If they didn't, then that is the weak link that left people without enough information.

"The first alert to the public about the series of events was sent by Nova Scotia RCMP’s Twitter account at 11:32 p.m. Saturday.

It read: “#RCMPNS is responding to a firearms complaint in the #Portapique area. (Portapique Beach Rd, Bay Shore Rd and Five Houses Rd.) The public is asked to avoid the area and stay in their homes with doors locked at this time.”​

N.S. mass shooting leaves many unanswered questions over RCMP communications with public

So many people want to blame someone for the shootings. The shooter is dead, so they want to put blame on the RCMP.

 

[otto]

I don't think this is a matter of a "special interest group" "seeking attention". I think there is a very clear argument to be made that there is a link between his apparent rage against the female partner and many of the murders. There is often a link between domestic violence (men against women) and multiple murders. For examples, read the article linked to this discussion.

Last weekend's rampage apparently began with his arguing with her and then beating her badly (according to what police have reported about her injuries). He seems to have motives for killing others in Portapique (such as Lisa and the Tucks) and the couple on Hunter Road. Those may have been nothing to do with the female partner. Or those murders may have had a lot to do with her if they were people she considered to be her friends, or people who had expressed their concern for her to him. Gina Goulet had turned down his offer of a job a year before. Why? He intentionally shot and killed 3 random women. The men he killed during that time were approaching him, getting in his way - like Mr. Bagley, Joey, the brother in Portapique, and the wounded fellow in Portapique.

The two others he grabbed as targets were RCMP, such as the wounded officer and Const. Stevenson. What we don't know, if whether he had access to police radio communication, and using that was actually targeting them - traveling to their meet-up spot - or if he simply happened upon one and then the other which is entirely likely.

Except for Joey, Mr. Bagley, the brother and the wounded fellow leaving Portapique, it seems entirely possible that the others died as the result of some grudge he was carrying against them, or one of them in the house, and as for the 3 random women, I think it likely the grudge was linked to them being female.

It's a bit of a leap to say that the man who checked out the first fire was killed because the shooter is a misogynist. There's no logical connection there.

 

[otto]

In my household we discuss the seriousness of situations, if my wife says she didn't think it was safe to go out bc there was and emergency alert issued I would likely stay home. And I believe she likely would as well, In fact she just confirmed that she would. Additionally no matter what one decides it doesn't change the fact that they were owed that information

The information was released by police on Saturday night. Did the local news report it?

 

[MistyWaters]

I didn’t say an Amber Alert should have been issued, I said an emergency alert containing the same information contained in the Halifax PD tweets should have been sent.

The Amber Alert system is a resounding success and has saved the lives of hundreds of children. Just because it is occasionally criticized doesn’t mean it should be abolished. I don’t understand the comparison you’re making.

The comparison I was making is the criteria for Amber Alerts includes specific vehicle identification (year/make/model) including the corresponding licence plate numbers. The identifying details of the various vehicles GW used and stole from his victims occurred in very quick progression. Therefore police wouldn’t be certain what he was driving because it goes without saying his murdered victims couldn’t report their vehicle stolen. Therefore I don’t think Emergency Alerts pertaining to this particular devastating crime spree can be compared to Amber Alerts.

 

[BearCatSafari]

It's a bit of a leap to say that the man who checked out the first fire was killed because the shooter is a misogynist. There's no logical connection there.

It is a leap, but it would appear the rampage itself started with a targeted attack against his female partner.

 

[LadyL]

I think perhaps this could be solved if everyone who wants to be alerted to crimes, subscribes to the appropriate RCMP twitter account(s). That way, you get continuous, detailed info, as per the tweets posted April 18th and 19th.
RCMP, Nova Scotia (@RCMPNS) on Twitter

Presumably, that's why it was set up. Is it RCMP's fault that people can't be bothered to use it? Why aren't people saying, gee, I wish I'd subscribed to that, I'll do it right now?

some people don't even have smart phones and some people live in an area with spotty reception

 

[otto]

It is a leap, but it would appear the rampage itself started with a targeted attack against his female partner.

Lots of people are violent towards a spouse. That does not make them misogynists.

 

[otto]

some people don't even have smart phones and some people live in an area with spotty reception

I get the feeling that people want to be spoon fed information. There was a time when people understood that if they want information, they have to take deliberate steps to get it. Today, it seems like people feel justified to complain because the information was not miraculously delivered without any responsibility whatsoever. When did people become so helpless that they blame others when they don't have information?

RCMP released the information in a timely manner using twitter and facebook - the preferred method for many. News outlets should have picked it up and reported it. If they didn't, that's a failure of the news outlets.