Canada - Tim McLean, 22, decapitated on bus, Winnipeg, 30 July 2008 *Insanity*

[PSUfan]

Well, while it wouldn't be much of a risk to bet Li's heading straight for a penal institution for the criminally insane for the rest of his life (I checked and they do that in Canada) I think it's too early to draw comparisons with Yates. In her case the overly religious family environment was a major factor (reading the Bible doesn't cure psychosis) and her shrink was incompetent and/or negligent and failed to act on obvious clues that her condition was rapidly deteriorating.

Li's actions appear more gratuitous and unpredictable, some would say more "evil" based on the apparent complete lack of motivation and the postmortem mutilations he (very publicly) performed on the victim. Unlike Yates I don't think Li believed he was sending his victim to a "better place", in fact he reminds me of something worse than Hannibal Lecter, I have difficulty conceiving that such individuals exist outside fiction. It's incredibly repulsive, I find myself wishing that the cops had shot him while he was alone on the bus even though that would have landed them in legal trouble, but on the other hand I think there is the need for science to probe this individual

You might be right... This man though, unlike Hannibal Lecter (he was just a movie character, right?), or Jeffrey Dahmer, he did not try to get away with it, and hide what he had done. Had he been even a little bit rational, he would not have done this in a bus filled with people. This just screams "criminally insane", just like the Andrea Yates case.

 

[KarlK]

You might be right... This man though, unlike Hannibal Lecter (he was just a movie character, right?), or Jeffrey Dahmer, he did not try to get away with it, and hide what he had done. Had he been even a little bit rational, he would not have done this in a bus filled with people. This just screams "criminally insane", just like the Andrea Yates case.

The Hannibal Lecter remark was because of the mutiliations and cannibalistic behavior displayed by Li. Li's actions are indeed apparently completely insane. That said, he did bring a hunting knife on a bus so whether he took it for a specific purpose or carried it at all times due to paranoid psychosis is still unknown, I think this is an important consideration even though I doubt the outcome will be anything else than the looneybin for life. From what I read on the Net Li will likely be sent the largest facility for the criminally insane in Canada for psychiatric evaluation pending his trial. This place is in Montreal, it's the "supermax" wing of an otherwise "normal" psychiatric hospital. Not a place for the faint of heart apparently. Its legal status appears to be that of a federal penitentiary.

 

[KarlK]

Implementing any sort of security on a BUS is going to be impossible unless they start charging a LOT MORE for tickets to pay for it. Buses make several stops to pick up passengers on a route and they also stop for food breaks and driver breaks. There would have to be security at EVERY STOP and every passenger who got off would have to be re-screened at every stop. Can you imagine the delay if every passenger had to go thru a security screen (like the airport) at every stop? And once you have equipment you have to hire 24/7/365 staff to DO the screening - the TSA can't keep enough security cleared screeners and now Greyhound is supposed to have them at every stop?? And every stop would have to have a specially built restricted "secure area" for the passengers to wait in after being screened - with the buses parked INSIDE this area. And this doesn't even include screening the LUGGAGE .

It is going to be darned hard (and incredibly expensive) to implement even a basic passenger screening on buses. Most of the small town "pick-ups" are at remote locations with no real "terminal" - just a gas station or restaurant - who is going to pay to put in screening devices and STAFF at THOSE locations. It sounds good to have these measures in place but it will likely price Greyhound into bankruptcy. Bus trips are the ONLY affordable form of mass transit for many low income people - now, with gas prices rising many people can't even afford a bus ticket - once the price becomes close to the cost of air travel (and the hassles similar) Greyhound will fold and there will be NO cross-country transportation available to most working poor or the elderly - and NO transportation from many small towns to urban centers.

For the same reason, trains are not as secure as airplanes - the idea that we must screen everyone for any public activity has to stop somewhere - I don't want to live in a country where I have to be screened to go into a mall or a church or a hospital or a park and it will be astronomically expensive (which ends up coming out of OUR pockets!). There just isn't any way the Govt and companies can be responsible for our 100% safety everywhere, all the time. We sell guns and knives legally - with little or no restrictions - so long as we do THAT, there will ALWAYS be the chance people will use them to kill OTHER PEOPLE. There are two sides - if we want the right to bear arms, then we also have to expect (and accept the risk) that those weapons may be used to kill innocent people.

In Texas people can carry concealed weapons on them 24/7 with a permit - people here can be armed everywhere - are we now going to prohibit the people here from say, driving their car while carrying a knife of gun because they might kill someone while driving? We can't expect to be safe all the time - bad things happen - we have a prohibition on drunk driving and yet drunk drivers kill people here every DAY! Life is risky - we just have to be careful and do our best to survive and leave the rest to God or fate or whatever we believe in. Nobody ever said life was going to be perfect or without risk and NONE of us knows when or how we will leave this life.

I for one, want LESS Govt/Invasion of privacy in my life...Not MORE! I could die tomorrow at the hands of someone else - but I'll happily take that risk vs having every facet of my life and my personal privacy invaded so we can all be "security screened" for our own "protection".

My Opinion

I don't think that's what Greyhound's CEO has in mind. Speaking from his office in Dallas he vaguely mentioned having an undercover security guard travel some routes at random. Obviously this is PR destined at appeasing the media who's apparently been hounding him (no pun intended) since the incident.

Anyway the bus security issue won't be dealt with as much by Greyhound Lines as by public transportation authorities in Canada I guess. After an inquiry into the matter they will likely issue loose guidelines that will legally only apply in Canada but it's likely that Greyhound will pick up one or two of the less costly guidelines and use it on US routes as well: it would bad PR not to and besides that the NTSB often apply Canadian TSB recommendations "as is" due to the high level of integration in the transport industry between the US and Canada.

Don't expect anything like airline security

 

[MeoW333]

Did Li live with anyone who would have noticed his increasingly paranoid or abnormal behavior? Was he still living with his wife?
You would think someone would have noticed signs and sought out mental health help for him. Obviously he is mentally ill and unorganized. He made no attempt to hide what he was doing, he even flaunted it.
Where did Li emigrate from before he lived in Canada? If it was from a country that had a lot of violence, then possibly his actions may be related to something he had witnessed or been involved in when living in another country.

http://www.metronews.ca/toronto/Canada/article/93220

"Pastor Tom Castor says Li, a recent immigrant at the time, seemed happy to have a job and was committed to doing it well."

 

[KarlK]

Where did Li emigrate from before he lived in Canada? If it was from a country that had a lot of violence, then possibly his actions may be related to something he had witnessed or been involved in when living in another country.

It appears that Li was originally from China.

On a different note but still on topic, as of Saturday Wikipedia has locked the Greyhound Lines page. It can be read but editing is disabled until further notice. The latest addition to the page was the murder, in the "incidents and accidents" section. The mention is still there but it's vague and only says a passenger was attacked by Li (who's full name appears in the mention) but it doesn't specifically state that the victim had died. I wonder if the locking is the result of a legal request, possibly by Greyhound? In a way the bus company is also a victim.

 

[Grainne Dhu]

Having had some significant experience with Paranoid Schizophrenics myself I can say that many of them are a threat to themselves and in some situations, a threat to others. They are often not reliable about taking meds in an unstructured, unsupervised environment

Part of the problem is that many of the meds have horrible side effects. I took a friend to the hospital a couple months ago who basically cut off her own hand because she could no longer stand the tardive dyskinesia (involuntary movements). She has it worst in the arms and had planning to cut off one hand, then somehow set up her car to run over the other hand so it would have to be amputated. She has schizophrenia but not paranoid schizophrenia.

She did so much damage to her own hand that they eventually ended up amputating it.

Sadly there are NO FACILITIES set up for PS care UNLESS they hurt themselves or someone else - and even then, as soon as they are back on their meds and functioning well, the hospital MUST release them.

Plus, no one really wants to live in a hospital. My friend could just give up and stop trying to live independently but she hates being institutionalised, hates it with a passion that goes beyond anything else in her life. She would be willing to live in a supervised residential situation (did so successfully for nearly 20 years) but the funding was cut and that's not an option for her right now.

And I do believe there are thousands of people in the US with a severe debilitating illness that can result in them killing themselves, their children or family members - not to mention rare cases like this where they manifest their severe psychosis with strangers.

But the statistics do not support this contention. They may have the capacity but so do you and I--and yet neither of us is statistically likely to act on such an impulse.

Nope, we sit on our collectives azzes and in our safe suburban homes and complain about the homeless issue and yet we won't vote for a penny to set up programs to treat the underlying cause of many homeless people's sad existence...debilitating mental illness.

You were clear you weren't addressing this to me personally but I wanted to note that I have done and continue to do what lies within my abilities. I've spent most of my life as a social worker and also volunteering my time and skills to places like crisis intervention centers, food pantries and now a program that is sort of modelled on Big Sister/Big Brother for adults with mental illness.

It is possible to do more than complain or ignore and I do what I can.

Until we can find a suitable way (and enact laws) to retain these people in a restricted but LOVING sheltered living environment where treatment is mandated, we are never going to eliminate the homeless.

Part of the problem with institutions is that no one wants to live there if they can possibly get out. The institutions I've seen are drab, bland, blah. The food is adequate but it's cafeteria food, once all is said and done. It's profoundly boring--computers are either prohibited or access is so limited that the patients are effectively cut off.

I think the key in what you said above is "LOVING." I sure wouldn't want to have one of my own relatives living in most institutions and many residential places.

One issue: in a lot of places they treat adults with adult needs and desires as if they were children. Relationships are either discouraged or so tightly supervised it's like kids on play dates. That drive, that yearning for someone special to love and be loved by isn't magically omitted from people with even severe mental illnesses.

Sociopaths don't have a sudden break from reality and by nature, they don't act publicly - sociopaths are perfectly sane and understand right from wrong, and they don't want to be caught - they KNOW what they are doing isn't normal and they go to great lengths to disguise their sickness from society. That's why they are often so difficult to catch - around others they can appear totally normal.

Absolutely agreed. If this guy had been a sociopath, he might have lured his victim on some pretext at a stop but he would not have simply jumped on him in front of other passengers.

And once the adrenalin sudsided and the voices became quieter, Li went into a near catatonic state where he could barely communicate or acknowledge others. This "aftermath" is common in PS - if they cannot get to their habitual "safe place" they literally hide inside their own mind with the familiar voices drowning out the real world. Li is aware of the world around him, but he is incapable of interacting with it in his current state. He just want to be left alone - his mind cannot handle anything external - he is totally focused inward - even his own body barely exists in his mind.

This is the characteristic that let my friend nearly cut off her own hand. For a normal person, even for a suicidal person, cutting into skin, tendons, blood vessels and nerves is far too painful to do. For her, in her state of distress, her body was just an inconvenient object in the environment of her mind and she was going to modify that object, in much the same way that someone sane might drive a wedge under a creaky floorboard.

 

[Bluebel]

As unbelievably appalling as this crime is, I want to second the comment made in this thread admiring the compassion for the mentally ill.

 

[kline]

On YouTube There is a 7 minute interview with the man who was sitting directly in front of the killer and victim (who were in the last seats in front of the bathroom) who said that Li (the killer) was sitting toward the front and only moved to the aisle seat next to the victim after the last stop - which was about 20 minutes before he went crazy and stated stabbing the man sitting next to him in the window seat.

The man who was killed was evidently NOT asleep the entire time Li was sitting next to him, but was texting with his family and girlfriend until just minutes before Li started stabbing him. There has been speculation that Li is a paranoid schizophrenic and something that the victim did (texting, wearing headphones, playing with his cell phone) made him believe the victim was an alien or evil and MUST be killed (or beheaded). Who knows, but there are several interviews with passengers on YouTube and obviously Li went crazy, but in a calm and robotic way - complete dis-association with the victim as a human (he could have been having visual hallucinations as well) and seeing the entire event as a triumph over an "evil thing" - which is a hallmark of severe mental illness. Li may (or may not) have thought the other passengers were also "aliens" or "evil" - it is probably good he was contained safely. It seems Li was not sociopathic but that there was something much deeper - a complete disconnect from reality, like severe schizophrenia where you only hear the voices in your head telling you to "kill the alien".

BTW, not all schizophrenics talk BACK to the voices audibly, some have the entire conversation in their heads or even on paper. I can tell you from personal experience that sometimes PS's do NOT mutter or talk back to the "voices" and that they can appear totally normal and then 5 minutes later be completely disassociated from reality and everything around them. For some reason KNIVES are a favorite weapon of theirs, not sure why? When I 1st saw this I felt immediately that it was severe, untreated, delusional, paranoid schizophrenia - it has most of the hallmarks - and the poor victim was just in the wrong place doing something totally innocent when this guy went totally off into the freak-zone thinking he had to protect himself and possibly "the world" from the evil "thing" sitting next to him. I am sure that the bus ride (in the dark an a desolate highway) also had something to do with setting this in motion and sometime during the stop, Li started to see the victim as a threat, one he had to behead to "save the world" because only HE could see the "evil one".

The killer has NO RECORD of anything but it is reported that in recent months he had begun to act increasingly strange and take off on unplanned trips and telling his wife and employer totally different stories - the wife hadn't seen him in days (since before the weekend) , the boss saw him last on Mon or Tues - he told everyone one something different - family emergency, job interview. He was obviously losing touch with reality as there was no job interview and no emergency. Once the illness and stress becomes too much, sometimes the PS begins to wander - looking for or hiding from the evil, the aliens, whatever. And he isn't talking becuase the "voices" are telling him they "captured" him and he must never tell what he "knows". Until he is properly medicated, he will not speak or help in his own defense - he cannot. The mental assessment will find he is almost catatonic in his current state, he will not speak....at all. This man beheaded and mutilated another human being and never spoke a single WORD the entire time.

There is a LOT of material on YouTube - a 1st hand account from the primary witness to the entire event.

My Opinion

Ive worked as a Psychiatric Technician in a state hospital for the last few years and you are right on as to the severity of these voices schizophrenics hear.
Its a regular torment for them which they are pretty much helpless against until the right medications can bring their symptoms down to a manageble level.
Many of the delusions are quite elaborate and very very real to them.
Sadly we see quite a turnover as people come in spend a couple of weeks until the symptoms they suffer from are brought down to a baseline level then they are kicked back out onto the streets.
Some cant afford the medications to keep the symptoms of their illness at bay some simply dont want to take the medication and quit because they enjoy the manic rush of the illness and others start self medicating with Meth and Alcohol,which of course is akin to throwing a match in a gasoline tank.
Many of these people are homeless or borderline and its a yearly routine. Institutionalize to clean up get fed and have a few months of a clean safe place to sleep, set around and watch TV then when the symptoms have leveled off and they are feeling healthy its back to the street and the illegal substances until their behavior brings them to the attention of the police then its back to the hospital.
Ive been doing this for three years and ive seen some patients cycle through four times already.
Needless to say this situation in Canada is tragic but I dont find it surprising except to wonder why we dont see more incidents like this.
There has to be better answers.
Just this past week here where I live in Idaho we had an incident where a young man who had been institutionalized for the past five years in California was released to an outpatient facilty.
In the interim his mother had moved here and built a house in a rural area outside of town.
He walked away from the out patient house in Cali and came here.
While the mother was out with her boy friend the young man had broken into her house and got ahold of a 44.magnum upon their return he attacked them.
The mother was wounded but managed to escape to a neighbor's house and call 911 the boyfriend was shot in the chest and died at the scene.
The mentally ill young man fled but commited suicide a short distance away by shoting himself in the head .
The mother was reportedly unaware that he had fled treatment in California but had been urging him to seek treatment at the Hospital where I work but he had refused.

 

[kline]

Another point: Someone had mentioned that patients are closely monitored and discouraged from forming romantic relationships with other patients while hospitalized.
This is very true.
For practical and liabilty reasons.
Its thought that patients are supposed to be focused on their own personal recovery which can be compromised by a love affair and its inherent drama.
Also since these patients have been commited by the court they legaly are not responsible for their actions.
Many have very compromised judgement faculties and can be easily victimized by others.
Also imagine the liabilty for the state if a relative were commited by the courts to a state hospital and became pregnant or contracted an STD or later claimed that a consensual relationship was actually rape (Many of these people are delusional and can convince themselves of anything).
Also many of these patients that have been living on the street have heppatitus C so there is also an infection control issue.

 

[capoly]

Court vs DHS in Vermont. Likely the Canadian situation wised DHS up.

Competent, But Insane

http://www.wcax.com/Global/story.asp?S=8770546&nav=4QcV

Officials: Behrman Won't Be Released

http://www.wcax.com/Global/story.asp?S=8777071&nav=4QcV

 

[invictus]

Having had some significant experience with Paranoid Schizophrenics myself I can say that many of them are a threat to themselves and in some situations, a threat to others. They are often not reliable about taking meds in an unstructured, unsupervised environment and as their parents age, the parents often can no longer physically handle the PS in an agitated state. It can be exceeding difficult for siblings to be responsible for their care - especially if they have children in the home.

Sadly there are NO FACILITIES set up for PS care UNLESS they hurt themselves or someone else - and even then, as soon as they are back on their meds and functioning well, the hospital MUST release them. And the cycle begins again. This is why so many PS end up on the streets wandering and muttering and wearing tinfoil hats - there is no-one or no place willing to undertake a supervised living arrangement and the PS are often indigent - they cannot hold down a job or manage money and are often victims of crimes themselves.

And I do believe there are thousands of people in the US with a severe debilitating illness that can result in them killing themselves, their children or family members - not to mention rare cases like this where they manifest their severe psychosis with strangers. Since the US did away with subsidized sheltered living and medical care for the mentally ill adults who cannot function in society alone, it just sent these people out onto our streets to be victims themselves, potentially hurt innocent people, or die of neglect. We have LOUSY programs in the USA for the mentally ill, we feel if we ignore PTSD, postpartum psychosis, paranoid schizophrenia, severe bipolar disorder and deep clinical depression, maybe they will just go away. How many people have to die before we, the citizens of the greatest country in the world, demand that these people be afforded proper care for their illnesses and a safe home to live in FREE?

Nope, we sit on our collectives azzes and in our safe suburban homes and complain about the homeless issue and yet we won't vote for a penny to set up programs to treat the underlying cause of many homeless people's sad existence...debilitating mental illness. And even though it looks (and feels) good to have them, it isn't enough to say "here's a shelter and a meal". Until we can find a suitable way (and enact laws) to retain these people in a restricted but LOVING sheltered living environment where treatment is mandated, we are never going to eliminate the homeless. And we certainly are NOT going to prevent senseless and 100% preventable deaths from severe mental illness. Andrea Yates should have been in the HOSPITAL, but her Dr and her insurance company and her husband were more interested in saving a buck and protecting their own interests than how sick Andrea was. The deaths of 5 children were a direct result of a mental health system that is BROKEN and a FARCE. Handing out some pills and hoping the person can maintain the regimin is NOT TREATMENT, its a bandage that looks all perfect on paper and appears pretty and clean on the outside, but is in reality a nasty mess INSIDE that will eventually kill the person - and could put the people in his or her life in danger as well.

And for those who believe this is the result of a sociopath please understand that sociopaths don't walk around for 40 years and show no signs or manifest a single sociopthic trait and then suddenly go from normal and functioning to to violent killing and canibalism in 20 minutes. Sociopaths don't have a sudden break from reality and by nature, they don't act publicly - sociopaths are perfectly sane and understand right from wrong, and they don't want to be caught - they KNOW what they are doing isn't normal and they go to great lengths to disguise their sickness from society. That's why they are often so difficult to catch - around others they can appear totally normal.

This case is much more like the cases of severely depressed men who calmly get a gun and kill 20 co-workers or the husband/father who kills his wife and children rather than lose them - cases which often end in suicide in suicide by cop. I don't think this is what this was though, my impression at least for now, is that this case is a textbook example of an unmedicated person who has had a severe PS "break" from reality and found himself in a situation out of his control where the "enemy" was all around and was trying to "trick"him/her with lies and illusions.

The clue here is the blatant, "look at me" public decapitation and cannibalism - those are strong taboos ingrained in 99.9% of people in our western society - someone who is merely sociopathic would NEVER manifest those behaviors publicly - but Li did - in fact seemed to be PROUD of his accomplishment - taunting onlookers as if he was displaying a trophy kill to the enemy. And once the adrenalin sudsided and the voices became quieter, Li went into a near catatonic state where he could barely communicate or acknowledge others. This "aftermath" is common in PS - if they cannot get to their habitual "safe place" they literally hide inside their own mind with the familiar voices drowning out the real world. Li is aware of the world around him, but he is incapable of interacting with it in his current state. He just want to be left alone - his mind cannot handle anything external - he is totally focused inward - even his own body barely exists in his mind.

Mentally ill people deserve so much more from society - we cannot keep looking away in shame - we MUST not just acknowlege the mentally ill, but reach out to them and enfold them in a safe embrace.

My Opinion

I'm so glad you spoke up. I have someone very close to me who is a paranoid schizophrenic and currently in a mental institution. It is absolutely the best place for him. I can't speak for others with the disease but he is where he needs to be.

This case is horrific and sad. I feel horribly for the family but given the fact that the killer most probably has mental issues I can't say that I would be angry with him. I would be far more angry with the broken system, with a society that doesn't do enough for the mentally ill. This person is a by-product of all the other things that in this chain reaction that went terribly wrong.

 

[KarlK]

I'm so glad you spoke up. I have someone very close to me who is a paranoid schizophrenic and currently in a mental institution. It is absolutely the best place for him. I can't speak for others with the disease but he is where he needs to be.

This case is horrific and sad. I feel horribly for the family but given the fact that the killer most probably has mental issues I can't say that I would be angry with him. I would be far more angry with the broken system, with a society that doesn't do enough for the mentally ill. This person is a by-product of all the other things that in this chain reaction that went terribly wrong.

But Li hadn't been diagnosed with schizophrenia had he? I thought Canada would be one of the "best" countries to live in if one is to fall ill, mentally or otherwise. If Li does have schizophrenia then surely he must have had the condition for quite a while since onset is late teens/early adulthood, I can't imagine someone behaving erratically for so many years without having been referred to psychiatric resources at some point...

Anyway it's all conjecture at this point, Li will likely be under psychiatric evaluation for quite a while before anyone can even think of a trial and/or verdict.

 

[jilly]

But Li hadn't been diagnosed with schizophrenia had he? I thought Canada would be one of the "best" countries to live in if one is to fall ill, mentally or otherwise. If Li does have schizophrenia then surely he must have had the condition for quite a while since onset is late teens/early adulthood, I can't imagine someone behaving erratically for so many years without having been referred to psychiatric resources at some point...

Anyway it's all conjecture at this point, Li will likely be under psychiatric evaluation for quite a while before anyone can even think of a trial and/or verdict.

I live in Canada Karl. Thing is, it's up to the individual to seek treatment and many don't including my brother who is wandering around somewhere with schiz. LE won't help me citing the Privacy Act. Unless he does something to hurt himself or others they can't do anything either.

Someone saw my brother a few months ago. They offered to put him on a bus and get him back to where his children are. It's a small community and we have an army of aide ready to help him. He said he couldn't go because the Premier of British Columbia, Gordon Campbell wouldn't let him.
People with this condition don't realize there is anything wrong. One person told my brother that he needed help and he just laughed. You need a professional to converse with them and coax them into getting help.

 

[kline]

Its kind of the same here,you cant be commited involuntarily if you dont express the desire to harm yourself or others.
Suicidal or Homicidal ideation its called.
Many Schizo effective people feel choosen or blessed by their delusions.
Many of them can be extremely manic akin to a euphoric state and the last thing they want is for someone to make it stop.
Then there is simple denial that they have a problem that needs to be controlled by medication.
I would find it hard to beleive that this individual was just doing fine then just succumbed to this in ten minutes and started carving this young man up.
Its obviously a problem thats been on going and for whatever reason he either couldnt or wouldnt get help.
Graine Dhu mentioned the friend who injured her hands we recently had a patient like that who thought 666 was marked on his right hand so he sawed it off with a tablesaw then threw it in the microwave so it couldnt be re-attached.
After he recieved the proper medication you could talk to him all day long and not know he had a problem.
His delusion had been on going aggravated by Meth use for quite some time but he hid it from those around him.

 

[MeoW333]

What Grainne Dhu said about institutions is correct as far as many state ones go:

"Part of the problem with institutions is that no one wants to live there if they can possibly get out. The institutions I've seen are drab, bland, blah. The food is adequate but it's cafeteria food, once all is said and done. It's profoundly boring--computers are either prohibited or access is so limited that the patients are effectively cut off.

I think the key in what you said above is "LOVING." I sure wouldn't want to have one of my own relatives living in most institutions and many residential places.

One issue: in a lot of places they treat adults with adult needs and desires as if they were children. Relationships are either discouraged or so tightly supervised it's like kids on play dates. That drive, that yearning for someone special to love and be loved by isn't magically omitted from people with even severe mental illnesses."

(Sorry still trying to figure out the qouting section part)
As someone who has worked a at state mental institution in the past, i can vouch for this as well. Most other staff would treat patients as children, including forcing them into showers early in the morning, the food looked inedible half the time, sexual offenders prowled certain wards, some staff slept shifts, reports of rape occurred more often than not. So i could understand why someone would not want to be in there. I didn't work there long. The integrity of a lot of staff was questionable as well. Aside from what i'd seen and heard, i've heard even worse stories from others who've worked on other wards in the same hospital.

There was a time when they had residential programs in place in rural areas, and the consumers (mental ill clients as they are called) would farm and grow their own food. Living off the land and in the country seemed to help their symptoms stay in control better. I know there was a place in Vt that did this back in the day, that is no longer in existence. If these such programs worked well, i can only guess they cut them do to funding/ financial reasons. Many psychiatrists are so quick to load them up on medications (especially in hospital settings) that they aren't looking for alternative ways including medication, to help manage the symptoms.

 

[kline]

It really isnt feasible for State run facilties to encourage 'relationships' for the very sound reasons I stated in one of the above posts.
I understand that patients have needs too but picture this scenario:
Youve got an 18 year old female patient with severly compromised judgement because of her illness and she's decided she's in love this week with a 28 year old male patient who you know has a history of sexual predatory behavior plus arrests and by his medical record you know he has heppatitus C and Herpes.
You cant tell her because that type of disclosure is illegal.
If you think it through you can see why a zero tolerance policy for patients hooking up might not be that bad of an idea.
I know 30 or 40 years ago this instituition used to have a dairy and a farm and was pretty self sufficent,I dont know how well that worked from a theraputic point of view I suppose it would depend on who you asked since it was my understanding patients were compelled to work.
I try to visaulize that with the patients I see today and cant quite imagine waking them up and telling them its time to hit the barn.
Back then the institution I work at was a big sprawling several building complex and I too have heard horror stories about those days as far as patient abuse.
It sounded very "One Flew Over The Cuckoo's nest"
Fortunately from what Ive seen at least here,things have changed for the better.
The old complex was raized about 8 years ago and a modern one story complex has taken its place.
Very nice atmosphere ,lots of windows and skylights give it an open feeling.
Staff is never alone one on one with patients and male and female patients arent alone one on one either.
Once again liabilty and that precludes any type of abuses and or false accusations from occuring.
It protects both patients and staff.
The training that staff recieves is far better then the old days as well.
Back then they just needed 'Orderlies'.
And apparently hired accordingly.
I can honestly say Ive never seen a patient treated with anything less then dignity and respect.
Anything else simply isnt tolerated.
I really cant speak for Doctors but I assume they treat the problems they see with medications that have been tested and proven to work in bringing the symptoms of mental illness under control.
I dont see how they could feasibly 'explore alternative methods' since the patients are State committed wards as opposed to lab rats to be experimented on.
"Hey lets discontinue his Lithium and try that new herbal tea I heard about on Oprah!"

 

[MeoW333]

Grainne Dhu, that Big Brothers/Big Sisters program, sounds like a wonderful idea!

Kline, you must work for an excellent hospital.
It would be hard to rouse patients to work nowadays. The benefit in that though, would be they were growing their own crops, and the joy they get from having accomplished that. Also i think the country atmosphere with less stimuli was what had helped them as well.

 

[Alta]

Li was in court today

When a judge asked him if he wanted a lawyer, Li shook his head no and then quietly said "please kill me."

According to a police report read by the Crown, officers discovered a plastic bag containing an ear, nose and part of a mouth in the pocket of the accused.

Link

 

[southcitymom]

Li was in court today

When a judge asked him if he wanted a lawyer, Li shook his head no and then quietly said "please kill me."

According to a police report read by the Crown, officers discovered a plastic bag containing an ear, nose and part of a mouth in the pocket of the accused.

Link

This is just so sad all the way around.

 

[cinsbythesea]

This is just so sad all the way around.

I agree. The guy must have just snapped. If so what an awful reality to have to live with.