Caravan of 4000 migrants heading to the US/Mexico border

[K_Z]

U.S. Foreign Aid by Country

You can input any country and find out how much aid the United States gives to various countries.

I would say that the 287 million we give to Honduras, would pay for a lot of border Security. And the money we give to Mexico, El Salvador, Guatemala, would be a significant amount of funding for the border wall.

I'd like to recommend 2 books for anyone who desires a deeper dive into U.S. foreign aid, and analyzing why some countries are able to become more prosperous than others. These 2 books, IMO, are brilliant analyses. The first (Moyo) is from 2009; the second from 2013.

https://www.amazon.com/Dead-Aid-Wor...=UTF8&qid=1540146548&sr=8-1&keywords=dead+aid

A national bestseller, Dead Aid unflinchingly confronts one of the greatest myths of our time: that billions of dollars in aid sent from wealthy countries to developing African nations has helped to reduce poverty and increase growth. In fact, poverty levels continue to escalate and growth rates have steadily declined―and millions continue to suffer. Debunking the current model of international aid promoted by both Hollywood celebrities and policy makers, Dambisa Moyo offers a bold new road map for financing development of the world's poorest countries.

Much debated in the United States and the United Kingdom on publication, Dead Aid is an unsettling yet optimistic work, a powerful challenge to the assumptions and arguments that support a profoundly misguided development policy in Africa. And it is a clarion call to a new, more hopeful vision of how to address the desperate poverty that plagues millions.

https://www.amazon.com/Why-Nations-...d=1540147398&sr=8-1&keywords=why+nations+fail

Brilliant and engagingly written, Why Nations Fail answers the question that has stumped the experts for centuries: Why are some nations rich and others poor, divided by wealth and poverty, health and sickness, food and famine?

Is it culture, the weather, geography? Perhaps ignorance of what the right policies are?

Simply, no. None of these factors is either definitive or destiny. Otherwise, how to explain why Botswana has become one of the fastest growing countries in the world, while other African nations, such as Zimbabwe, the Congo, and Sierra Leone, are mired in poverty and violence?

Daron Acemoglu and James Robinson conclusively show that it is man-made political and economic institutions that underlie economic success (or lack of it).

 

[K_Z]

World poverty, immigration, and gumballs.

Definitively illustrates why, using a compelling visual aid, that the U.S. cannot solve, or even meaningfully impact, world poverty by increasing the number of people admitted from poor and violent parts of the world. (Violence follows poverty all over the world.)

 

[bluesneakers]

It isn’t just that they want to leave poorer countries though.

They are desperate to leave one of the most violent countries in the world. In many cases they have seen family members brutally murdered and they are attempting to save their children.

Our local news this morning featured a woman who had fled with a young daughter and tiny granddaughter. The rest of her family had been killed.

Yeah, i’d grab my last remaining child and grandchild and flee too.

I think it’s difficult for most people who live in a wealthy, peaceful country to imagine what it’s like to live under those conditions and the desperation the people feel.

After the images of Alan Kurdi, the refugee boy who drowned in the Mediterranean, were shared everywhere I read a quote that summed it up perfectly: No one puts their children in a boat unless the water is safer than the land.

(And I just learned it’s from a poem by Warsan Shire called “Home.”)

ETA:
no one leaves home unless home chases you
fire under feet
hot blood in your belly
it’s not something you ever thought of doing
until the blade burnt threats into
your neck

Read here:
Warsan Shire, "Home"

 

[fred&edna]

World poverty, immigration, and gumballs.

Definitively illustrates why, using a compelling visual aid, that the U.S. cannot solve, or even meaningfully impact, world poverty by increasing the number of people admitted from poor and violent parts of the world. (Violence follows poverty all over the world.)

Interesting & "easy" visualization... thank you for sharing

 

[K_Z]

I think the take home message is that our U.S. immigration policies cannot be driven "only" by emotion and sympathy for the poor.

We are the most generous nation in the world for foreign aid, and contribute the most NGO's (by both human numbers and dollars).

The best place to combat poverty and encourage economic prosperity is inside the countries and regions that promote and perpetuate poverty (and violence).

The U.N. and the U.S. have made it clear that Mexico has a responsibility to stop the transit of these kind of "caravans" that want to travel supported and unimpeded thru Mexico to get to the U.S. border.

Mexico is sufficiently developed to be "encouraged" on the world stage to take responsibility for preventing this kind of humanitarian and economic disaster.

Here is a thought experiment. What if the U.S. simply helped and encouraged the "caravan" to head straight up thru the center of the U.S. to the Canadian border, our neighbor to the north? We decide we won't house or feed them, don't take any applications for asylum or refugee status, and we help them to get to the Canadian border as soon as possible? We simply say, this "caravan" isn't our problem, because we already have a huge population of very poor citizens to help, Canada has more land space, fewer residents than California, more money for welfare for immigrants, and their PM Justin Trudeau has publicly welcomed all illegally immigrating aliens? There are a few very tiny, very nice border crossings into Manitoba, Canada between MN and North Dakota. Shall we funnel the caravan to our northern neighbor? How would that work out?

 

[mickey2942]

We are a nation of immigrants. My Great Grandparents came here, from Germany, and Ukraine.

What is the difference?

They came here legally, and were processed, at Ellis Island. They were legally admitted into the United States, after passing through a rigorous inspection process. The United States decided to admit them. They learned English, and integrated into American society. Lawful and legal immigration.

They did not storm the border, and demand entry. They did not expect free food, medical care, cash assistance and housing. There were no entitlement programs then, work or die. No welfare handouts.

I actually have no problem with these folks coming legally, and signing documents that they will not become public charges, or their children.

 

[bluesneakers]

'We Won't Be Broken.' Caravan of Migrants Sets Sights on U.S., Defying President Trump's Threats

But others were in an upbeat mood, dancing and singing. A Mexican federal police operation to stop them on Friday, which had been applauded by U.S. President Donald Trump, had failed to halt their advance. “We are going to stay together, we won’t be broken,” said Edwin Rosas, a 31-year-old-builder from Progreso, Honduras, his shirt off in the humid evening. “We will keep going all the way.”

The caravan of an estimated 3,000 refugees and migrants, mostly without papers, first set out from the Honduran city of San Pedro Sula on Oct. 13, with the intention of heading through Guatemala and Mexico to the United States. As it pushes onwards, defying borders and growing in number, it has shaken governments through Central and North America.
...
Now, Mexico’s Peña Nieto, who finishes his term on Dec. 1., has a dilemma. If his authorities harshly crack down on the caravan as it heads through the country, this could provoke a backlash from human rights defenders and others. But if they let the caravan continue, this will likely provoke outrage from Washington — and Trump in particular, who has threatened to scrap a newly-forged trade deal with Mexico if it isn’t stopped.

Member Marlon Castro, a Honduran who lives in Mexico, said the members of the caravan were not scared of the Mexican police and would not stop until they reached the U.S. “Now because of our numbers, they can’t do anything,” he said. “And we have shown we are not scared.”

 

[mickey2942]

'We Won't Be Broken.' Caravan of Migrants Sets Sights on U.S., Defying President Trump's Threats

But others were in an upbeat mood, dancing and singing. A Mexican federal police operation to stop them on Friday, which had been applauded by U.S. President Donald Trump, had failed to halt their advance. “We are going to stay together, we won’t be broken,” said Edwin Rosas, a 31-year-old-builder from Progreso, Honduras, his shirt off in the humid evening. “We will keep going all the way.”

The caravan of an estimated 3,000 refugees and migrants, mostly without papers, first set out from the Honduran city of San Pedro Sula on Oct. 13, with the intention of heading through Guatemala and Mexico to the United States. As it pushes onwards, defying borders and growing in number, it has shaken governments through Central and North America.
...
Now, Mexico’s Peña Nieto, who finishes his term on Dec. 1., has a dilemma. If his authorities harshly crack down on the caravan as it heads through the country, this could provoke a backlash from human rights defenders and others. But if they let the caravan continue, this will likely provoke outrage from Washington — and Trump in particular, who has threatened to scrap a newly-forged trade deal with Mexico if it isn’t stopped.

Member Marlon Castro, a Honduran who lives in Mexico, said the members of the caravan were not scared of the Mexican police and would not stop until they reached the U.S. “Now because of our numbers, they can’t do anything,” he said. “And we have shown we are not scared.”

Great. These definitely seem like lawful people who won't cause problems here. (Sarcasm).

What about the people who work for the Department of Homeland Security? At the Southern border. Their job is to provide border control and security. What should these United States citizens, most of whom are former veterans, what should they do when this mob reaches the border?

What will the mob do? "THEY CAN'T STOP US".

 

[K_Z]

Interesting & "easy" visualization... thank you for sharing

I think one of the most poignant comments made by the speaker in this video is that in terms of "who" is motivated to migrate to wealthier nations (and especially, "who" joins marching caravans), it is the youngest, healthiest, most energetic, often most educated, and most socially engaged people who are the most able and eager to abandon their countries of origin for the "chance" to get into a wealthier nation.

The brain drain, energy drain, and enthusiasm drain of these individuals abandoning their home countries only accelerates and perpetuates the corruption and poverty in their countries of origin. The best, brightest, healthiest, youngest leave any way they can (migrating legally or illegally), leaving the old, sick, least motivated/ easiest controlled, least educated, to persevere in appallingly corrupt places.

Imagine the social and economic changes that could be achieved if people like these highly motivated "caravan marchers" held their own governments accountable? Imagine if they DEMANDED change right there in their own countries? We would certainly help them, right? The U.S. has done that for decades.

To say nothing of the fact that if the caravan marchers are truly fleeing personal persecution and violence, they don't have to go 2000- 2500 miles to the U.S. to get away. There are many, many places in and between Honduras, El Salvador, and the U.S. border where they can be safe, and work.

These mass marching "caravans", all over the world-- not just in central America, are nothing more than a "soft" invasion of every country they illegally transit. Every sovereign nation has the right to control their borders, tell them the answer is "no, you can't enter like this", and turn them back.

 

[katydid23]

'We Won't Be Broken.' Caravan of Migrants Sets Sights on U.S., Defying President Trump's Threats

But others were in an upbeat mood, dancing and singing. A Mexican federal police operation to stop them on Friday, which had been applauded by U.S. President Donald Trump, had failed to halt their advance. “We are going to stay together, we won’t be broken,” said Edwin Rosas, a 31-year-old-builder from Progreso, Honduras, his shirt off in the humid evening. “We will keep going all the way.”

The caravan of an estimated 3,000 refugees and migrants, mostly without papers, first set out from the Honduran city of San Pedro Sula on Oct. 13, with the intention of heading through Guatemala and Mexico to the United States. As it pushes onwards, defying borders and growing in number, it has shaken governments through Central and North America.
...
Now, Mexico’s Peña Nieto, who finishes his term on Dec. 1., has a dilemma. If his authorities harshly crack down on the caravan as it heads through the country, this could provoke a backlash from human rights defenders and others. But if they let the caravan continue, this will likely provoke outrage from Washington — and Trump in particular, who has threatened to scrap a newly-forged trade deal with Mexico if it isn’t stopped.

Member Marlon Castro, a Honduran who lives in Mexico, said the members of the caravan were not scared of the Mexican police and would not stop until they reached the U.S. “Now because of our numbers, they can’t do anything,” he said. “And we have shown we are not scared.”

This is nothing more than an ugly mob. Who do they think they are, that they can invade our borders aggressively, while dancing and singing, like it’s a game? This is not ‘immigration’ this is ‘invasion. Plain and simple.

 

[kaen]

Imagine the social and economic changes that could be achieved if people like these highly motivated "caravan marchers" held their own governments accountable? Imagine if they DEMANDED change right there in their own countries? We would certainly help them, right? The U.S. has done that for decades.

This is what happens to those who challenge across the last 20-30 years:

El Salvador: The New Disappeared

Hondurans Protest Against Gov't on Day of the Disappeared

Honduras – CJA

In Mexico, Not Dead. Not Alive. Just Gone.

The disappeared of Guatemala: a family’s search for their murdered son | Nina Lakhani

If only it were as simple as protesting your government and they would listen. Corruption and political power go hand in hand. How can they hold their governments accountable when their raised voices often get them killed? The reality is way more complex. Having been on the ground in Mexico (during the migration of the Zapatistas into Oaxaca) and Guatemala (at the end of the civil war), it is important to not oversimplify how the killing and the bloodshed can stop. It hasn't happened yet.

 

[K_Z]

I think we will shortly see U.S./ Mexico border crossings temporarily closed to all human, truck, and cargo traffic.

A closure of only 90 days would be effective to disperse the increasingly belligerent mob/caravan, and devastating to Mexico's economy.

Would be the right message to send, IMO.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

This is what happens to those who challenge across the last 20-30 years:

El Salvador: The New Disappeared

Hondurans Protest Against Gov't on Day of the Disappeared

Honduras – CJA

In Mexico, Not Dead. Not Alive. Just Gone.

The disappeared of Guatemala: a family’s search for their murdered son | Nina Lakhani

If only it were as simple as protesting your government and they would listen. Corruption and political power go hand in hand. How can they hold their governments accountable when their raised voices often get them killed? The reality is way more complex. Having been on the ground in Mexico (during the migration of the Zapatistas into Oaxaca) and Guatemala (at the end of the civil war), it is important to not oversimplify how the killing and the bloodshed can stop. It hasn't happened yet.

The United States was founded by a violent revolution where many died so that all could live free.

It can be costly but it can be done.

 

[K_Z]

This is what happens to those who challenge across the last 20-30 years:

El Salvador: The New Disappeared

Hondurans Protest Against Gov't on Day of the Disappeared

Honduras – CJA

In Mexico, Not Dead. Not Alive. Just Gone.

The disappeared of Guatemala: a family’s search for their murdered son | Nina Lakhani

If only it were as simple as protesting your government and they would listen. Corruption and political power go hand in hand. How can they hold their governments accountable when their raised voices often get them killed? The reality is way more complex. Having been on the ground in Mexico (during the migration of the Zapatistas into Oaxaca) and Guatemala (at the end of the civil war), it is important to not oversimplify how the killing and the bloodshed can stop. It hasn't happened yet.

Simple question. Why haven't the corrupt government and criminal gang leaders in Honduras/ El Salvador stopped the caravan participants from queuing up and marching?

Why are they so benevolent and willing to let them peacefully join a caravan/ belligerent march out of the region, into neighboring countries, and toward the U.S., unchallenged? Hmmm.

What's in it for them, the corrupt leaders? Will the remaining people be easier to manipulate and control? Will the corrupt leaders be LESS criticized by world nations? Why are they, the corrupt leaders, so unbothered by the belligerent caravan forcing their way into other countries, smashing down border crossings, while waving flags of their countries of origin, etc?

These caravan participants sure don't act like they are "afraid" of anyone, or any government authorities, as they invade and smash their way through the borders of other countries.

They don't act at all like "desperate" people, terrified and fleeing persecution and violence. They are arrogant, belligerent, and menacing, demanding entry, demanding all sorts of things, resorting to mob rule and violence when they don't immediately get their way.

Americans aren't stupid. We can see this with our own eyes on every news clip. This is not how we want to welcome legal immigrants to our country.

 

[katydid23]

This is what happens to those who challenge across the last 20-30 years:

El Salvador: The New Disappeared

Hondurans Protest Against Gov't on Day of the Disappeared

Honduras – CJA

In Mexico, Not Dead. Not Alive. Just Gone.

The disappeared of Guatemala: a family’s search for their murdered son | Nina Lakhani

If only it were as simple as protesting your government and they would listen. Corruption and political power go hand in hand. How can they hold their governments accountable when their raised voices often get them killed? The reality is way more complex. Having been on the ground in Mexico (during the migration of the Zapatistas into Oaxaca) and Guatemala (at the end of the civil war), it is important to not oversimplify how the killing and the bloodshed can stop. It hasn't happened yet.

So these poor citizens are so frightened by authoritarian governments they enthusiastically march, singing and dancing , right up to secure borders and force their way in, aggressively? They don't seem like frightened , cowering victims.

They seem like a greedy, entitled mob, trying to invade other countries for their own financial benefit and to our detriment.

 

[Satchie]

Simple question. Why haven't the corrupt government and criminal gang leaders in Honduras/ El Salvador stopped the caravan participants from queuing up and marching?

Why are they so benevolent and willing to let them peacefully join a caravan/ belligerent march out of the region, into neighboring countries, and toward the U.S., unchallenged? Hmmm.

What's in it for them, the corrupt leaders? Will the remaining people be easier to manipulate and control? Will the corrupt leaders be LESS criticized by world nations? Why are they, the corrupt leaders, so unbothered by the belligerent caravan forcing their way into other countries, smashing down border crossings, while waving flags of their countries of origin, etc?

These caravan participants sure don't act like they are "afraid" of anyone, or any government authorities, as they invade and smash their way through the borders of other countries.

They don't act at all like "desperate" people, terrified and fleeing persecution and violence. They are arrogant, belligerent, and menacing, demanding entry, demanding all sorts of things, resorting to mob rule and violence when they don't immediately get their way.

Americans aren't stupid. We can see this with our own eyes on every news clip. This is not how we want to welcome legal immigrants to our country.

I feel it's important to remember that we receive our information through the TV media, which is, IMO, is the ultimate drama queen/chicken-little-type story-teller. "The sky is falling, the sky is falling" is the message, all day, every day.

I don't believe this is a spontaneous event. I believe it is 'political theatre,' staged to attract media attention and make a political point. Yes, human migration is a real thing, but not in this conspicuousness and form.

Remember the "Occupy" movement? That was political theatre. People joined in, but it was unsustainable and unreal, so they left and the whole thing was forgotten. Political theatre goes back a long time: general strikes, rallies, and, more darkly, terrorism, are all political theatre.

What is the point? IMO, it's to create the impression of a massive crisis. To force some kind of radical action, or make the government look bad, or influence opinion.

This was organized in Honduras, by Honduran activitist(s), to shake things up and make a point.
Organizer of Honduran migrant caravan detained in Guatemala | Reuters

So, do we go along with their agenda, react as though the sky is falling? Or do we behave like adults should, when our child throws a tantrum in the store because we won't buy them what they want: be calm, be rational, apply the same rules you would apply without the tantrum.

After WWII there were 10 -20 million displaced persons who needed to be resettled somewhere, and it was done. A few thousand Hondurans is not a crisis: many will end up back home, or will be held in camps until it's all sorted out.

I do think, looking at it quite clinically, that there's two problems in the world today, in most counties and all levels of society: #1 ever-rising expectations of material wealth to buy consumer goods, live in ever-nicer houses, drive ever-fancier cars, etc, and #2 overpopulation.

This problem affects places like Canada: in spite of our empty land, people don't want to live in the woods in a shack, surviving on moosemeat and berries. They want to live in cities, and we don't have enough housing that conforms to contemporary standards and expectations.

 

[Curious.1]

I think it’s difficult for most people who live in a wealthy, peaceful country to imagine what it’s like to live under those conditions and the desperation the people feel.

After the images of Alan Kurdi, the refugee boy who drowned in the Mediterranean, were shared everywhere I read a quote that summed it up perfectly: No one puts their children in a boat unless the water is safer than the land.

(And I just learned it’s from a poem by Warsan Shire called “Home.”)

ETA:
no one leaves home unless home chases you
fire under feet
hot blood in your belly
it’s not something you ever thought of doing
until the blade burnt threats into
your neck

Read here:
Warsan Shire, "Home"

Have you heard her read it? When her voice cracks, it just about breaks me.

 

[fred&edna]

This is not how we want to welcome legal immigrants to our country.

RSBM

For me, it comes down to this.

 

[Satchie]

Do you ever wonder what your life would be like, what your children’s lives would be like, if you weren’t born in this country?

I’ve traveled pretty extensively on mission trips in third world countries and I think about that all the time.

What would we be willing to do to save our children from violence and poverty?

In America poor people have food stamps, cell phones, and subsidized apartments.

In other countries parents watch their children die from lack of food and medicine. Childhood diarrhea or strep throat coukd be a death sentence.

What would you and I do to save our families?

Congratulations on your travels to see how other people live.

There are a couple of Americans in Honduras I very much admire, they're protestant 'nuns' who have taken a vow of povetty and live in a very poor area. One was a pediatritian, they go every week to a local clinic to volunteer, and they fundraise for it. The clinic does get essential medical supplies like antibiotics, either from the government or private aid agencies.

The two sisters live like the locals (or maybe like the locals used to live): growing chickens and pineapples, chopping wood for the stove, washing clothes in the river, travelling by bus supplemented by walking and rides from neighbours. Their life is physically hard for two women, one who is now in her 70's, but they seem quite content and grateful to live in such a simple way because of their faith. They've published a book https://www.amazon.com/Giving-Up-Something-Good-Better/dp/1539888126

They have the advantage of receiving donations of cash from supporters, they spend about $125 per month for living costs. This is far below minimum wage in Honduras, but most country people don't have access to full-time employment, they need several sources of revenue to cover their cash needs.

In most poor countries like Honduras, people don't want to live that way, the way their parents and grandparents did. This is why , for eg, there were so many abandoned farmhouses in Tuscany for Americans to buy up and renovate: the people all migrated to the city for factory jobs so they could buy new shoes, washing machines, and now iphones. Same old story, everywhere.

 

[mickey2942]

I ask myself what I would do if I had been born into a country with such unbelievable violence, if my children didn’t have enough food to eat, if I saw children die from simple infections because there was no medicine available, if I had seen innocent family members murdered?

What would I do to save my children?

Would you break the law to save your child? Break into someone's home? Steal their food? Take food from another child?

Where is the line drawn?

Fortunately, we don't need to worry about it, immigration laws are clear. Economic asylum seekers don't have standing. Asylum for food, is not part of the current law. We give $287 million dollars a year to Honduras. I don't know where that money goes...but we may as well stop sending it, if it is not helping.