Case Against Darin?

[beesy]

She forgot her sunscreen? Locked herself out of the house? Oh yeah, but she would have told us that, wouldn't she? Unless it was while he/she was dumping the sock.

In case you couldn't tell, this is sarcastic. I know she cut it to stage the scene

 

[accordn2me]

:laugh:

I'm sorry, but that makes little to no sense.

How old are you!?

Believe me, to a kid it would make sense. Besides, the screen was ruined anyway. Think about what screens do. If they have the least little bend around the frame, or tiniest of hole in the screen, their effectiveness drops drastically.

 

[accordn2me]

Darlie has never said anything about who opened the front door first. Her story is she followed the intruder thru the kitchen and he ran out thru the garage. Therefore she herself tells us why there is none of her blood on the front door.

Darlie's account of the intruder leaving has nothing to do with the front door. If she unlocked and opened the front door to yell for Karen, her blood should have been there. I don't know if this was addressed by investigators.

The "intruder" went out thru the garage, remember? That's why there's blood on that door. She told us that.

Did she say the intruder left the blood on that door? You see, that drives me crazy. There is not enough testimony from anyone about the blood or prints on that door for me to understand whose it was or how it got there.

Darlie's story is that she followed the man into the kitchen, turned around to turn on the light, went back toward the garage, stopped and picked up the knife. Did she look out into the garage? That would certainly explain that blood on the door. WHY WASN'T THAT EXPLAINED? :banghead:

Even if an intruder had exited by the front door, wouldn't he have left some sort of blood on the door?

According to expert testimony about leaving blood in the garage, not necessarily. And let me clarify - my hunch was that the intruder(s) may have entered through an unlocked door.

I don't quite understand what you're insinuating anyway. An intruder entered the front door, but Darlie forgot to tell everybody she found the door open as she chased the man thru the kitchen?

I don't mean to insinuate anything. This is pure curiosity - probably questions that will remain unanswered forever. I'll say it again, the front door has nothing to do with Darlie's account of the intruder's exit.

The million dollar question is: was the front door open when she went to yell for Karen?

It is a good question though: who opened the front door first? Doesn't have anything to do with her guilt or innocence, it's just a curiosity.

Yes, it is. Had Darin already gone out the door to get Karen when we hear Darlie yell for her on the 911 tape?

Did Darin really lock the door before he went to bed? He surely had a lot on his mind at that time.

 

[beesy]

:laugh:
How old are you!?

Believe me, to a kid it would make sense. Besides, the screen was ruined anyway. Think about what screens do. If they have the least little bend around the frame, or tiniest of hole in the screen, their effectiveness drops drastically.

Well, apparently I'm old enough to see that makes no sense. Hopefully the Routier boys were brighter than you're giving them credit for. A cut screen would have been more easily spotted by ol' Ma and Pa Routier. A bent screen would still hide your dirty deed. And why are we talking about the boys breaking into their own house to get popcicles anyway? Maybe loving mother Darlie should have been more on the ball and given the kids popcicles. That's what I do. Mine don't have to pop out a screen, cut a screen, etc. Mom is here! By the way, how old are you?

 

[beesy]

Darlie's account of the intruder leaving has nothing to do with the front door. If she unlocked and opened the front door to yell for Karen, her blood should have been there. I don't know if this was addressed by investigators.

I know her account said nothing about the front door. That's why I wrote that. Your question does not need to be addressed by investigators because Darlie never said anything about opening the front door or seeing it open. Personally I think Darin opened it and he says never went to Darlie until after LE and paramedics got there. So he would not had have her blood on him at that point

Did she say the intruder left the blood on that door? You see, that drives me crazy. There is not enough testimony from anyone about the blood or prints on that door for me to understand whose it was or how it got there

Well right there, you're leaving the door open(good pun) to conjecture that Darlie or Darin left the blood there. By Darlie's story, any blood found on the garage door was left by her intruder.

Darlie's story is that she followed the man into the kitchen, turned around to turn on the light, went back toward the garage, stopped and picked up the knife. Did she look out into the garage? That would certainly explain that blood on the door. WHY WASN'T THAT EXPLAINED? :banghead:

Darlie says she did not look out into the garage. There, it's explained.

According to expert testimony about leaving blood in the garage, not necessarily. And let me clarify - my hunch was that the intruder(s) may have entered through an unlocked door.

I don't mean to insinuate anything. This is pure curiosity - probably questions that will remain unanswered forever. I'll say it again, the front door has nothing to do with Darlie's account of the intruder's exit.

I realize that. I just can't understand what you're implying by saying Darlie's blood is not on the door. That has nothing to do with the investigation at all. Even you said you have a hunch someone entered thru that door. Are you saying he didn't close it behind himself? Have you looked for your answer in any transcripts or interviews? Perhaps Darin himself answers the question for you. I think I'll page thru my books later to see if I can find it.

The million dollar question is: was the front door open when she went to yell for Karen?

If I recall correctly Darlie was screaming FOR Karen, meaning for Darin to go get her.

Darlie yell for her on the 91tape?1 Yes, it is. Had Darin already gone out the door to get Karen when we hear

Well, when the PO arrived on the scene, he followed Darin into the house. So that might have been the 1st time Darin opened the door. Again, Darin can tell you, look for it. It's there somewhere.
The 911 Operator says the officer is there and then asks if the door is unlocked. Whiny responses from Darlie.

Did Darin really lock the door before he went to bed? He surely had a lot on his mind at that time.

Doesn't matter because nobody came in and attacked Darlie and killed those boys. The killer was already in the house.

 

[accordn2me]

Well, apparently I'm old enough to see that makes no sense.

Yes, you are old enough to see that! You are not 5 or 6 years old. Their sense is not the same as our sense. :twocents:

By the way, how old are you?

Now you're just being mean! :boohoo:

Hopefully the Routier boys were brighter than you're giving them credit for.

Well, there's always hope, but you can't forget who their parents were.

A cut screen would have been more easily spotted by ol' Ma and Pa Routier. A bent screen would still hide your dirty deed.

This is too complicated for me to argue with. :bang:

And why are we talking about the boys breaking into their own house to get popcicles anyway? Maybe loving mother Darlie should have been more on the ball and given the kids popcicles. That's what I do. Mine don't have to pop out a screen, cut a screen, etc. Mom is here!

Whether they were ever in trouble about the screen will always be an unknown. I shouldn't have suggensted it.

As far as loving mother goes, if I buy the popcicles and put them in the freezer, I'm being loving. I'm certainly not going to stand there until they want one! Obviously, she put them in the freezer in the garage so the boys wouldn't be tracking in the house to get them. She was lovingly keeping the house clean.

 

[Goody]

How would that tell you when the screen was cut?!

I was addressing your comments that it is impossible to for experts to tell if a screen has been cut from the inside or the outside. It is not impossible. They conduct tests that show them, usually using the actual tool if they have it.

As for when it was cut, there is not a single word of testimony about the screen being cut prior to the murders. Darlie and Darin say it was not. Their friends say it was not or that they never saw a cut on it. You can't just assume that the kids cut it beforehand without something to base your theory on. The fact that something MIGHT be possible does not make it PROBABLE. That is just you going off in left field. The evidence is supposed to LEAD you to the conclusion. You are just distracting yourself from the evidence with thoughts that have no supporting information to back them up.

Is this a test? I have no clue. They may not have even been born then for all I know! :blushing:?!

Well, you should know if you are going to throw a theory out there like you did. If the kids were too young to cut the screens on Bond Street, then you suggestion that maybe Darin was looking to see if they did is impossible.

How often? Was it as often as the intruder who stuffed socks in the victim's mouths??!

There is no evidence that the sock was ever shoved in Darlie's mouth. That was a claim that surfaced AFTER her DNA was found on the sock. Also, in the cases where a sock was shoved in someone's mouth in Rowlett, as I recall there were only one or two burglaries, both occurred after the Routier murders, and no one was murdered or even stabbed. Someone from Texas can correct me if I am wrong, but I am pretty sure that is what I discovered in my research on it. My point is there is no M.O. connection to link these crimes to the Routier case. Plus there is reason to disbelieve Darlie's claim about it. Did she just suddenly remember it or did she hear about the other case(s) and add it to her story after she found out she would need to explain away how her DNA got on that sock and Darin's (whose sock it was) did not.

How do you know it was cut for show? Yes, the screen could be taken off. It wasn't so easy that it could be done without damaging the screen though. If you needed to gain access to the garage to get a popcicle, it would be a pain in the hiney to wrestle the screen off, get a popcicle, crawl out and get the screen back on without the popcicle melting in the Texas heat. That's waaaay more trouble than a nice slice in the screen. Plus, you wouldn't be disobeying anyone by taking the screen off if you had been in trouble previously for bending it.!

Well, the cut itself is too perfect to have been done by a six year old just for starters. The T lines were straight, not jagged...no hesitation marks.... no Zigzags. A kid did not cut that screen.

The screen was easy to remove. Maybe not as easy as popping a top on a can, but certainly not much more difficult. The kids knew all they had to do was pop it with a screw driver and that is what they used, I think.

I can't imagine any kid thinking it would be okay to cut a screen, esp these kids who had gotten into all kinds of trouble with both parents that evening for dumping out half the water in the hot tub. Interestingly enough, one author claims their next door neighbor heard Darlie through the fence screaming at them and calling them MF'rs and threatening them with punishment, like "you're really going to get it now." At trial though, Darlie said Darin was the one who was upset about it and Darin claimed it was Darlie who had gotten upset by it. So that seems to be a fact they both want to steer clear of....like who opened the front door first. Something about that also seems to be something neither wants to admit to.

Another thing about the screen, if the kids did cut it, it would give the parents even more motive to kill them. There were be two major screw ups that evening that were bound to create pure havoc in the house. If the parents lied and used the cut screen to prove an intruder killed them, then what do you have besides two guilty parents?

Personally, I don't think the kids cut the screen. I think one of the parents did. Not sure which one. Could have been either.

Well that certainly wouldn't be a first in this case!

You can put Darlie and Darin at the top of that list. Then tell me why you would think any parent could possibly be innocent if they are willing to lie about the deaths of their own children? And not just any death either. We're talking traumatic, brutal deaths. Who could lie about that and still be innocent?

 

[Goody]

As far as loving mother goes, if I buy the popcicles and put them in the freezer, I'm being loving. I'm certainly not going to stand there until they want one! Obviously, she put them in the freezer in the garage so the boys wouldn't be tracking in the house to get them. She was lovingly keeping the house clean.

Obsessively might be a better word.

 

[Goody]

I resemble that remark! :crazy:

O, Jeana, I don't know why but I always picture you with dark hair.

 

[Goody]

How do you know it was cut for show? !

Forgot to answer this one.

I don't KNOW it was cut for show. It is my opinion that it was cut for show and that opinion is based on the evidence and what information I have gathered in the process of studying this case. I didn't just say one day, "Hmm, maybe it was cut for show," and come up with a theory that was not supported by a lot of facts. You should try it sometime. It is really invigorating. Great exercise for the brain.

 

[Goody]

In case you couldn't tell, this is sarcastic. I know she cut it to stage the scene

To Beesy from Beesy....are you arguing with yourself these days, girl?

 

[Goody]

Mary wears many hats.

What does that mean?

 

[Goody]

Darlie has never said anything about who opened the front door first. Her story is she followed the intruder thru the kitchen and he ran out thru the garage. Therefore she herself tells us why there is none of her blood on the front door. The "intruder" went out thru the garage, remember? That's why there's blood on that door. She told us that. Even if an intruder had exited by the front door, wouldn't he have left some sort of blood on the door? I don't quite understand what you're insinuating anyway. An intruder entered the front door, but Darlie forgot to tell everybody she found the door open as she chased the man thru the kitchen?
It is a good question though: who opened the front door first? Doesn't have anything to do with her guilt or innocence, it's just a curiosity.

Sorry, girls, but you are both wrong. Darlie did address the front door in her testimony. She had to because her blood was on the front door knob. It was not on the lock, which I think was a deadbolt. If Darin was correct when he said he locked the doors, she should have had to have unlocked the deadbolt before she could open the front door to yell out for Karen as she claimed.

Personally, I don't think she was yelling for Karen. It sounds more like Darin to me, but gets by as Karen. I think that Darin was down the alley dumping the sock and maybe a few other things and she was worried that he would not get back in time. But I haven't tried to synchronize it with the 911 call yet, so I am not glued to it. There is also the possibilty that she called out the garage door because she thought he was out there cutting the screen. That would at least count for the blood in the utility room.

Darin being out the front door though accounts for his sudden presence in the yard when Waddell arrived, which they later denied and claimed Waddell just walked into the house without announcing himself and without a gun drawn. It makes more sense to me that Darin went out the front door to discard the items in the alley, only one of which was later found, and apparently surprised them because they complained about not being told of the discovery right away. It always made me feel that they were upset because not knowing about the discovery of the sock could have caused them to trip themselves up as they tried to match their stories to the evidence. Otherwise, why be so indignant? Everyone knows the police keep some evidence to themselves to help them trap the killer.

It makes sense that he cut his timing a little short and had to make it appear that he was coming out the front door and not from around the house to greet Waddell. But again I don't know how that flies with the timing on the 911 call when Darlie hollers out for him or Karen, whichever it was. Someday I will have to take the time to test that theory out.

 

[Goody]

:laugh:
How old are you!?

Believe me, to a kid it would make sense. Besides, the screen was ruined anyway. Think about what screens do. If they have the least little bend around the frame, or tiniest of hole in the screen, their effectiveness drops drastically.

A lot of people have damaged or imperfect screens on their houses. LOL! The position of that window was not on the street side of the house. I don't think they cared that much. Look at the gate. They had it jerryrigged with strings and such, not exactly the example of obsessive perfectionist attitudes. I think they cared about what the public could see. What couldn't been seen was easily put off.

And I disagree that a six year old would think that damaging his parents' property with a big cut would be a good thing to do over just bending it a little. Kids know that broken means trouble, esp those kids. You're just trying to rationalize a weak theory that has no supporting information to back it up. Sorry but I am afraid that theory of the kids cutting the screen to get popsickles is just a glimmer in your eye. hahahahahahah! Like the old Wendy's commercial, you got no beef in it.

 

[accordn2me]

I was addressing your comments that it is impossible to for experts to tell if a screen has been cut from the inside or the outside. It is not impossible. They conduct tests that show them, usually using the actual tool if they have it.

I did not say that, Goody! I said one investigator looked at the screen and believed the screen was cut by someone from inside the garage. Then, another investigator looked at the screen and said that the screen was cut by someone from outside. The first investigator then changed his position that the screen was cut from inside and agreed with the second investigator that the screen was cut from outside. I do not know if this is a true story. I do know that Linch said there was one indication that the screen was cut from outside and IF it was cut from outside then...

I also said there is no test to show when the screen was cut. Even assuming Darlie cut then screen, there is no way to tell when.

Well, you should know if you are going to throw a theory out there like you did. If the kids were too young to cut the screens on Bond Street, then you suggestion that maybe Darin was looking to see if they did is impossible.

You are right, I didn't even consider how old the boys might have been at the time. Just tell me what the rules for throwing theories out are and I'll try to be sure and abide by them next time.

So, why was Darin on Bond Street looking for cut screens? Is that even true that he was?

There is no evidence that the sock was ever shoved in Darlie's mouth.

Oooooo, it sounds like it's time for my mantra! Just because there is no evidence or testimony does not mean that it did or did not happen.

A kid did not cut that screen.

How do you know?

Another thing about the screen, if the kids did cut it, it would give the parents even more motive to kill them.

Goody! Come on now! This is as farfetched as I've ever seen you get. Please don't call me on my blind theories if you are going to say something like this. I mean, maybe I could understand killing them right there on the spot, but not hours after the fact.

You can put Darlie and Darin at the top of that list. Then tell me why you would think any parent could possibly be innocent if they are willing to lie about the deaths of their own children? And not just any death either. We're talking traumatic, brutal deaths. Who could lie about that and still be innocent?

I wholeheartedly agree with you here. Darlie and Darin were exactly who I was talking about. When you made the comment that even they didn't "make a self-serving comment" about the screen already being cut. I agreed then too.

If Darlie knows Darin did this, she is right where she needs to be. It's a travesty they didn't get him too.

 

[accordn2me]

What does that mean?

a2me---->:chicken:

 

[accordn2me]

Sorry, girls, but you are both wrong.

Not me! I was asking.:innocent: Beesy's always wrong. :slap: j/k bees

Darlie did address the front door in her testimony. She had to because her blood was on the front door knob. It was not on the lock, which I think was a deadbolt. If Darin was correct when he said he locked the doors, she should have had to have unlocked the deadbolt before she could open the front door to yell out for Karen as she claimed.

Personally, I don't think she was yelling for Karen. It sounds more like Darin to me, but gets by as Karen. I think that Darin was down the alley dumping the sock and maybe a few other things and she was worried that he would not get back in time. But I haven't tried to synchronize it with the 911 call yet, so I am not glued to it. There is also the possibilty that she called out the garage door because she thought he was out there cutting the screen. That would at least count for the blood in the utility room.

Calling out the garage door certainly would explain the blood there. Since my book is still not here :boohoo:I can't see where Karen's house is in relation to Darlie's garage and front door.

If her blood was on the front door but not the lock, maybe Darin had already gone across the street to Karen's. Did Darin make it to Karen's before Waddell arrived?

Darin being out the front door though accounts for his sudden presence in the yard when Waddell arrived, which they later denied and claimed Waddell just walked into the house without announcing himself and without a gun drawn. It makes more sense to me that Darin went out the front door to discard the items in the alley,

The neighbor supports the PO that Darin met Waddell on the front lawn. Was Darin on his way to Karen's, or on his way back from Karen's when they met?

Now, assuming that Darin discarded some items in the alley, why do you think he would have used the front door instead of the back? Also, what items do you think he discarded that were not found?

 

[accordn2me]

A lot of people have damaged or imperfect screens on their houses. LOL!

Yes they do. Damaged or imperfect screens are not totally useless, but they are just a tiny step away from it. Mosquitos and flies have an amazing ability to find the smallest of openings to gain access through.That being said, I probably wouldn't rush to replace a garage screen either.

But you are right. My theory is weak with no supporting information. Forget I mentioned it.

 

[beesy]

Not me! I was asking.:innocent: Beesy's always wrong. :slap: j/k bees

Ok, I am not always wrong. I even quoted from MTJD to prove to you and Mary that Chris said the wounds were numbered in the order they were received, not me, Chris. Therefore, I was not wrong, Chris was.
And yes, I should have said "I don't believe Darlie said..blah blah". You are not supposed to personally insult anybody on here and qualifying "Beesy's always wrong, slap slap" with j/k does not take away the insult.

I always though it odd that Darlie's blood was not on the front door even though we know she yelled for Karen. Certainly she opened the door first....

That's not a question, that's a statement

 

[beesy]

Sorry, girls, but you are both wrong. Darlie did address the front door in her testimony. She had to because her blood was on the front door knob. It was not on the lock, which I think was a deadbolt. If Darin was correct when he said he locked the doors, she should have had to have unlocked the deadbolt before she could open the front door to yell out for Karen as she claimed.

Do not lump me together with her when addressing me

Personally, I don't think she was yelling for Karen. It sounds more like Darin to me, but gets by as Karen. I think that Darin was down the alley dumping the sock and maybe a few other things and she was worried that he would not get back in time. But I haven't tried to synchronize it with the 911 call yet, so I am not glued to it. There is also the possibilty that she called out the garage door because she thought he was out there cutting the screen. That would at least count for the blood in the utility room.

It does seem to fit. The first time Darin is heard on the tape is at about 30 seconds. Darlie screams "Karen/Darin" about 2 mins. later. The 1st time the PO is heard is at about 3:45 mins. Easily fits your theory. Darlie could have hollered out the utility room door to Darin. Right after she screams for whoever, the OP asks her if anybody else is in the house with her, besides her children and her husband. Darlie first says "no" real quick, then adds that her husband just ran downstairs and he's helping her. He had actually been downstairs over 2 mins. by then. Looking at it from the point of view that Darlie is screaming "Darin" makes the "he's helping me" seem creepy, doesn't it? Is he running around getting rid of things, cutting screens, is that how he's helping her?

Darin being out the front door though accounts for his sudden presence in the yard when Waddell arrived, which they later denied and claimed Waddell just walked into the house without announcing himself and without a gun drawn. It makes more sense to me that Darin went out the front door to discard the items in the alley, only one of which was later found, and apparently surprised them because they complained about not being told of the discovery right away. It always made me feel that they were upset because not knowing about the discovery of the sock could have caused them to trip themselves up as they tried to match their stories to the evidence. Otherwise, why be so indignant? Everyone knows the police keep some evidence to themselves to help them trap the killer.

That's right, they said they felt betrayed by LE when they weren't told about the sock. Source: Flesh and Blood by Patricia Springer. They were probably thinking "crap, what else did Darin screw up"

It makes sense that he cut his timing a little short and had to make it appear that he was coming out the front door and not from around the house to greet Waddell. But again I don't know how that flies with the timing on the 911 call when Darlie hollers out for him or Karen, whichever it was. Someday I will have to take the time to test that theory out.

Darlie doesn't say on the tape that she's hollering for a neighbor to help her and now that I've listened to it again and again, it was on a loop, LOL her screaming "Karen" sounds like it came out of the middle of nowhere. Patricia Springer says that Darin went to get the Neals after LE and the paramedics had arrived. Springer does not say Darin claims to have gotten the Neals to have friends with him, but because Karen was a nurse. Later, Terry Neal drove Darin to the hospital and Karen took care of Domaine and Drake. Another thing about the tape, I downloaded it and I can hear things much better than just playing it from the website. I'll have to watch the the mins. again, but I swear at one point, I can hear utensils clattering. Hmmmmmm