Case Against Darin?

[Goody]

LOL, some of the darlies want Darin to have attacked a motherboard with the bread knife and Darlie cutting up chicken in the sink that day hence the fibre and the blood.

Well, unfortunately the chicken would have had to have Devon's and Damon's DNA. Wait....I know.....she wiped up the floor with that bloody chicken and that accounts for the cleaning efforts they found on the floor. Let this be a lesson to all....never eat dinner at Darlie's!!! hahahahahahah!

Seriously though, don't you think she probably used canned chicken or leftover chicken to make the soup? She has never addressed that. The only thing I would use a whole chicken for would be chicken and dumplins or roasted chicken. If she used raw chicken pieces, she wouldn't have to cut anything. She'd just boil the meat off the bone. Of course, that is what I would do to a whole chicken, too. Why create a lot of work if you don't have to?

Now that motherboard thing....that was so far out in left field it doesn't even deserve honorable mention! LOL!

 

[Jeana (DP)]

Not even in your own back yard - with a 6' privacy fence? Hmmm, maybe I'm a bad mommy....

When my daughter was 5 years old, she could swim like a fish. I wouldn't have left her alone around the pool, but a hot tub....well, we didn't have one so I really don't know. Just guessing myself, if she could stand up and her head would be above water I'd say I wouldn't watch her 24/7 around it.

I think in a backyard with a 6' privacy fence is fine. I was talking about children, as the Routier boys, who are allowed to venture away from their own yards unaccompanied.

I wouldn't have left any of my children in any body of water when they were five years old. In fact, now that my youngest is 10 years old, I still won't. Guess I'm overprotective, but they'll just have to live with that. :blushing:

 

[Jeana (DP)]

Well, unfortunately the chicken would have had to have Devon's and Damon's DNA. Wait....I know.....she wiped up the floor with that bloody chicken and that accounts for the cleaning efforts they found on the floor. Let this be a lesson to all....never eat dinner at Darlie's!!! hahahahahahah!

Seriously though, don't you think she probably used canned chicken or leftover chicken to make the soup? She has never addressed that. The only thing I would use a whole chicken for would be chicken and dumplins or roasted chicken. If she used raw chicken pieces, she wouldn't have to cut anything. She'd just boil the meat off the bone. Of course, that is what I would do to a whole chicken, too. Why create a lot of work if you don't have to?

Now that motherboard thing....that was so far out in left field it doesn't even deserve honorable mention! LOL!

I'm sorry Goody. Did you say "canned chicken."

 

[Goody]

I'm fairly certain Goody that she does holler Karen. And I believe it's in response to Darin's "get something, get somebody"

I will have to go back and listen to the tape again. I really have forgotten the detail there. But if you are right, then Darin could not have been outside when she hollered it.

 

[Goody]

there is a way, the weathering on the screen. If the cut was made days or weeks prior it would have been subject to "weathering" rain, wind, snow (LOL) and sun.

If it frayed, they could tell that it was not cut that night. You are right about that, but I don't know how long it might take a nylon screen to fray after the initial cut. It seems it would be weeks to me, and I can't see how no adult who knew the Routiers would have noticed it. People were in and out of that house all of the time. They were very social people. Someone would have noticed.

Now if the screen had only been cut for a couple of days, I am not sure experts would find fraying or any particular weathering from sun, etc. Nonetheless, the cut itself is not the handiwork of kids trying to steal popsickles. An adult made that cut. I think that point is obvious.

 

[cami]

Sorry, that's one subject that chaps my hide!!!!! Anytime I see little kids out alone, I go insane. :bang:

Oh I know that's one of your pet peeves. We are fairly lucky that snatching kids from yards doesn't happen here at least not often. I think it happened once that I know of back in the late 70's. Traffic is the big problem but you see kids out playing all over our neighbourhoods. Some of them only go in to eat and use the bathroom. Then again the neighbours look out for each other's children for the most part.

I don't know any body that would allow their children to use a hot tub without parental supervision.

 

[cami]

If it frayed, they could tell that it was not cut that night. You are right about that, but I don't know how long it might take a nylon screen to fray after the initial cut. It seems it would be weeks to me, and I can't see how no adult who knew the Routiers would have noticed it. People were in and out of that house all of the time. They were very social people. Someone would have noticed.

Now if the screen had only been cut for a couple of days, I am not sure experts would find fraying or any particular weathering from sun, etc. Nonetheless, the cut itself is not the handiwork of kids trying to steal popsickles. An adult made that cut. I think that point is obvious.

ITA, that cut was not made by the kids, it was made that night. It's obvious by the testimony, the cut was fresh, not old. Didn't it have the debris on it from a fresh cut. Wouldn't the kids have knocked that off going in and out if it had been cut earlier in the week or weeks prior?

 

[Goody]

No, what makes me laugh is they just bust on to the site and go aboard knowlegable posters with their outrageous theories and the reply he/she received cracked me up. Just because Darlie is a "mother" she's exempt from killing her kids. that's their defense. Then there's Richard and he cracks me up. Everything cracks me up lately, I must be manic. I had so much trouble with the utility companies on my latest move that I had to just laugh and laugh finally on how badly they screwed up. Suffice it to say, I moved in with no power. Just got my phone service yesterday, LOL.

And the beat goes on........LOL! Poor Cami. Sometimes all you can do is laugh.

Yes, that mothers don't kill their kids excuse is pretty lame, but I gotta admit it had me going for awhile. When I first heard about it on the news locally here, I just dismissed it as an inside job as soon as I heard the guy supposedly came in through a window. There was not much coverage though. No pictures of the family or Darlie, just a quick shot of the house, I think.

I saw one of the Leeza shows and it didn't impress me either. As I recall, I didn't have a real opinion one way or the other. Then years later we started discussing it at A&E, and since I like to play devil's advocate, which is really just me looking at both sides, I found myself looking for alternative solutions. After I read the transcripts, I was really convinced a devoted mother could not do this crime, even though I know logically that devoted mothers do commit horrendous crimes against their children sometimes. So do not so devoted mothers.

It took me learning how to interpret the forensics and a second trip to the transcripts to realize how wrong I was. It helps to know the facts of the case before you hit the transcripts cold because information that appears minute and unimportant can be extremely important, hence our need for opening statements, I suppose. I think I skipped those or maybe I didn't have access to them. Can't remember now.

On my first read, Darlie seemed like a frightened child. On my second read, after understanding the evidence against her and the facts of the case in greater detail, she appeared to be making every effort to stay as neutral as she could to avoid being caught in a lie. It suddenly hit me that for her, the safety zone was not in denial but in not having any answer at all for sticky spots. That way she could not be trapped and the responsibility for figuring it all out was left on the others, court officials and the jury. I think she honestly believed that she could not be convicted if she had no hand in telling people what happened, that they would have to believe her confusion and ignorance if they couldn't prove her knowledge. I would bet that this was her M.O. all thru high school too. It was how she got out tight spots. She would feign sweet innocence and claim ignorance. That tactic might work on unimportant things, but when you find yourself in court on a murder charge.....well, I don't have to tell you. LOL!

 

[Goody]

What are you TALKING ABOUT????? You know there were plenty of times Darlie wasn't watching those kids. All the neighbors said they were allowed out for hours alone. They never saw Darlie out there. How would she know what they were up to? They were allowed in the freaking hot tub alone? What kind of mother allows that? I don't believe that the boys did cut the screen, but I believe if they had wanted to, there would have been plenty of opportunities for them to have done so.

I agree. But I do think Darlie would have missed the bread knife and there would have been h to pay if she caught them with it. Shoot, if she called them dirty names for dumping out the hot tub, can you imagine what she would have done if they had cut that screeen?

 

[accordn2me]

I think the point of not having metal screens is that synthetic materials won't "weather."

But your point is well taken, Cami. I never would have thought of that.

Long ago reading about the screen, I wondered why no one suggested that maybe the boys cut the screen. Recently, reading the testimony, I realized that someone had indeed thought of it because Davis attempts to put it aside by asking Linch if he thought a child could have managed the cut. Mosty (not sure I'm spelling it correctly) objected and Davis withdrew the question.

By the way, apparently there are some zigzags toward the bottom of the vertical cut - not that suggests it was one of the boys cutting. Just that the cut wasn't "perfect." Also, it appeared to Linch that the cutter was going to make the vertical cut down the left side but for some reason decided the middle was better.

When Dani_T made the highly qualified suggestion that maybe Dana didn't testify because she knew the screen was cut earlier, I decided to revisit my hunch here. Boy did I ever get rewarded for it!

 

[Goody]

oooh...but it's much more fun to believe she is saying "Darin" Isn't it? I do have a question, even if she was screaming out the front door for Karen would Karen have heard her? Where do you think Karen was when Darlie screamed for her?

There is no way Karen would have heard her. Her house was sort of kitty korner from Darlie's and across the street. It was a hot night and the air conditioning would have been on with windows shut. The people right straight across the street from Darlie were different. They didn't like air conditioning and would often sleep with windows open as they did that night, which is why they saw and heard so much.

As for where Karen was....she was sound asleep in her bed with her husband. That is supported by even Darin's testimony about him waking them up AFTER paramedics entered the Routier house and he was free to go after them. That was long after Darlie hollered K(D)arin. It made no sense why he went after them at that point, but they came to the door in their nightwear and had to get dressed before going to the Routiers.

 

[Goody]

Well, she hadn't washed it at least 6 months. Don't you remember Mulder said it had lettuce on it that could be 6 months old? :waitasec:

No, I don't! Please post that section of transcript.

 

[accordn2me]

No, I don't! Please post that section of transcript.

NOOOOOO! Don't make me do it!:bang:

BTW, I was just being a smartypants about the 6 month old lettuce.

 

[accordn2me]

from Vol. 37

Mulder/Linch

22 Q. Okay. Now, you would agree with me,
23 for instance, the cellulose that you found on -- was that
24 on this knife?
25 A. That hasn't been testified to, but
1 there was a microscopic fragment of cellulosic material
2 on this bread knife.
3 Q. Okay. That could have been cutting
4 lettuce six months or nine months before, couldn't it, or
5 from the butcher block itself?
6 A. Yeah, could have.
7 Q. And of all this stuff, cellulose,
8 rubber, fiberglass, you have absolutely no way of telling
9 anybody how long that has been on that knife, do you?
10 A. No.
11 Q. And for instance, if it's cellulose --
12 were there hairs on this knife, on the Number 4 knife?
13 A. I think there was a very, very thin
14 hair.
15 Q. Okay. So even if it had been through
16 the dishwasher, in all likelihood, would still have some
17 kind of particle on it?
18 A. It could, sure

 

[Goody]

I did not say that, Goody! I said one investigator looked at the screen and believed the screen was cut by someone from inside the garage. Then, another investigator looked at the screen and said that the screen was cut by someone from outside. The first investigator then changed his position that the screen was cut from inside and agreed with the second investigator that the screen was cut from outside. I do not know if this is a true story. I do know that Linch said there was one indication that the screen was cut from outside and IF it was cut from outside then...

I also said there is no test to show when the screen was cut. Even assuming Darlie cut then screen, there is no way to tell when. .

I don't remember it that way, but fine...if we are on the same page now, we'll just move on.

You are right, I didn't even consider how old the boys might have been at the time. Just tell me what the rules for throwing theories out are and I'll try to be sure and abide by them next time..

Well, most of us try to present theories that are logical according to the facts and evidence. It would be illogical to present a theory that a child who was an infant could cut a screen in his previous home, for example. (I see you have posted evidence that he was about 4 years old when they moved out of the Bond Street house....still a long shot that he could cut a screen with two straight lines without screwing it up.)

As for the rules, the longer you post the more that will become clear to you. Just imagine you are in speech class or a journalism course where accuracy is a focus. Some get a little carried away, but most of us make an effort to present as factually as possible. As irritating as it might seem, discussing the case is more fun when the theories are probable, or at least a degree better than just barely possible. None of us are perfect though and we all stumble once in awhile, so don't take it personally. We are just commenting to your posts, not to you, the person.

So, why was Darin on Bond Street looking for cut screens? Is that even true that he was?..

No one knows why Darin was at Bond Street looking at screens. It is in his testimony though as well as unresponded to statements by the DA about some of the things he supposedly told the current resident. One of those statements was that he said Darlie could make the alley run in 27 seconds or some such number. It sounded like they had timed the run at some point. The question is when, before or after the killings?

Oooooo, it sounds like it's time for my mantra! Just because there is no evidence or testimony does not mean that it did or did not happen...

Well, anything could happen, including a mini invasion from another planet. Don't expect us to take seriously a theory that does not utilize the evidence we do know exists. If you have a theory, that does not incorporate the evidence or some likelihood of occuring based on some outside bit of information, what good is it?

 

[Jeana (DP)]

I agree. But I do think Darlie would have missed the bread knife and there would have been h to pay if she caught them with it. Shoot, if she called them dirty names for dumping out the hot tub, can you imagine what she would have done if they had cut that screeen?

You're right about that.

 

[accordn2me]

None of us are perfect though

I know, but I'm awfully close.

and we all stumble once in awhile, so don't take it personally. We are just commenting to your posts, not to you, the person.

I appreciate the kind words, my friend. But I was blessed with skin like a duck's back...THICK!

No one knows why Darin was at Bond Street looking at screens. It is in his testimony though as well as unresponded to statements by the DA about some of the things he supposedly told the current resident. One of those statements was that he said Darlie could make the alley run in 27 seconds or some such number. It sounded like they had timed the run at some point. The question is when, before or after the killings?

Oh, all the hearsay that Mulder didn't object to. :furious:

Speaking of 27 seconds...I did a detailed analysis of the 911 tape years ago. I've never been into music or sound systems so my speakers were the bottom of the line that came with my computer in 2000. One of the things I was paying particular attention to was the times I could hear Darin. Note: there is one place he is identified as being Darlie. I noted the time between every time he could be heard because I was trying to figure out exactly when he could have gone to Karen's. Going on a very faulty memory here, I believe there are a couple of periods of more than 40 seconds you don't hear him. I have no idea how long it would take to run to Karen's and get help, - or run to the back alley and plant a sock....

 

[Goody]

Originally Posted by Goody
A kid did not cut that screen.

How do you know?.

You can look at it and tell that much. How coordinated do you think a 6 year old is? As a mother of boys, I can tell you that mine certainly could not have done it.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Goody
Another thing about the screen, if the kids did cut it, it would give the parents even more motive to kill them.

Goody! Come on now! This is as farfetched as I've ever seen you get. Please don't call me on my blind theories if you are going to say something like this.

I mean, maybe I could understand killing them right there on the spot, but not hours after the fact. ?.

What I meant is that this particular fact (if it were a fact) would go to motive, not exoneration. Esp if you have two parents who don't want authorities to know the kids cut the screen before that night.

Why would they be lying about who cut the screen and when if they didn't want to use it to prove an intruder came in? If they did that, it becomes obvious there was no intruder, only two angry parents tired of the destructive natures of their out of control kids?

I don't for one minute believe that these kids were capable of cutting that screen the way it was cut, but if they were, it hurts Darlie a whole lot more than it helps her. In fact, I don't think it would help her at all.


Originally Posted by Goody
You can put Darlie and Darin at the top of that list. Then tell me why you would think any parent could possibly be innocent if they are willing to lie about the deaths of their own children? And not just any death either. We're talking traumatic, brutal deaths. Who could lie about that and still be innocent?

I wholeheartedly agree with you here. Darlie and Darin were exactly who I was talking about. When you made the comment that even they didn't "make a self-serving comment" about the screen already being cut. I agreed then too..

I guess I wasn't looking at it as deeply as I should have because, as I said above, the kids cutting the screen would prove there was no intruder....or at least it would take away the only possible evidence of the guy's existence, short that bloody fingerprint that anyone with half a brain can figure out is Darlie's.

If Darlie knows Darin did this, she is right where she needs to be. It's a travesty they didn't get him too.

On this note, I totally agree. I just don't see how you can think Darlie might not have participated in the actual murders. All the physical evidence points to her. None of it points to him. Personally, I am inclined to believe he was involved beyond just the cover up, but I don't think he actually picked up a knife and stabbed the kids. I don't think he had the guts to do that. Darlie, on the other hand, seems to be the most aggressive of the two and the one most likely to brave the horror and do what she had to do.

Maybe she did just fly off the handle, but that suicide episode only a month earlier is a big red flag and it keeps waving in my face, telling me that the seeds were planted that day. What transpired from that day in May to June 6th is the mystery. If we knew that, we would know exactly what happened and probably who did what that night.

 

[Jeana (DP)]

Maybe she did just fly off the handle, but that suicide episode only a month earlier is a big red flag and it keeps waving in my face, telling me that the seeds were planted that day. What transpired from that day in May to June 6th is the mystery. If we knew that, we would know exactly what happened and probably who did what that night.

Exactly. They haven't said the truth about ONE thing, big or small, since the murders. We'll never know what happened. Darlie is the one who will pay the price. If Darin should be in prison too, its her fault that he's not.

 

[Goody]

Calling out the garage door certainly would explain the blood there. Since my book is still not here :boohoo:I can't see where Karen's house is in relation to Darlie's garage and front door.

Darlie's home was on a corner. Darlie's front door faced the Gorsuch house straight across the street. Gorsuch's was on a curve sort of as the side street did not go through on his side of the cross street, which was in front of both of their houses. Karen's house was right next door to the Gorsuch house, to Darlie's right.

Darlie's garage door was on the side street side of her house, which would have been to Darlie's left if standing on her front porch and back from the corner a little ways.

There was no back door. There were only three entrances to the house from outside. The front door, the glass sliding doors in the family room, and the big garage door. There was no walk-through to the outside door in the garage. And the only entrance to the house from the garage was through the utility room off the kitchen. There was a privacy fence around the backyard, where the sliding doors let out into.

The glass sliding doors were just a couple of steps from the garage window that had the cut screen and was supposedly the intruder's point of entry. It would have taken only seconds to step outside, cut the screen,and return to the family room.

One other point, in the front yard there was a two or three tier water fountain that had three flood lights on it. That was lit up that night. There was a street light next to Gorsuch's house on that curve and another streetlight near the alley entrance, which was close to the Routier driveway on the side of the house. Then there was a motion detector in the backyard that would turn on yet another flood light over the back yard. Now you tell me what thief would pick this, one of the first houses in the subdivision, that was lit up like the Rockefeller Christmas tree, to break into?

If her blood was on the front door but not the lock, maybe Darin had already gone across the street to Karen's. Did Darin make it to Karen's before Waddell arrived?.

According to trial testimony, Darin did not go across the street until after paramedics arrived, which was long after Waddell arrived. He was seen coming out of the shadows near the front door, but no one could really say he came out of the house at that point. It was just assumed he did. That led one poster to think maybe he was coming back from dropping the sock and whatever else he might have gotten rid of when he realized that the police had arrived. Too late to go back inside, he decided to go greet them, which he later denied. It struck me that neither Darlie or Darin wanted to claim opening the front door for the first time. That made me think there was something about the front door that scared them.

The neighbor supports the PO that Darin met Waddell on the front lawn. Was Darin on his way to Karen's, or on his way back from Karen's when they met?.

Darin denies meeting Waddell in the front yard. No one knows what he was doing. He was screaming that his wife and kids had been stabbed, but at trial he said he didn't know she had been injured at that point. If he went after paramedics arrived, why would he be yelling and screaming? He didn't do that in the house. He didn't do that on the 911 tape. It makes no sense for him to go after help after help arrived, and it makes no sense for him to be yelling and screaming in the front yard after help arrived. The only thing that does make sense is that if he had just come back from getting rid of evidence and was afraid he would be questioned about why he was outside, he might position himself to make it look like he was just coming out of the house (rather than just returning) and start yelling and screaming to convince police he was a grieving parent, not a perp. Later he didn't want to be the one who opened that front door first (that sock run haunting him?) so he is brazen enough to pit his word against the young cop's, probably not realizing that his neighbor has witnessed the whole thing.

Now, assuming that Darin discarded some items in the alley, why do you think he would have used the front door instead of the back? Also, what items do you think he discarded that were not found?

It was easier to make the run from the front door. He would have gone around the house under the street lights to get to the alley, which is the same side of the house Waddell parked on. So Darin must have escaped detection by the skin of his teeth if he did this.

If he had gone through the backyard, he would have had to avoid the motion detector, which is possible but also a good reason not to go that way, and he would have had to fool with that heavy broken gate. I think the gate would have shown signs of someone hurriedly trying to shut it behind them. Since it didn't and there is not one drop of evidence anywhere in the back yard, there just isn't anything to support that as the route anyone taking the sock for whatever reason might have taken.

For some reason, I am left with the impression that they were in the habit of coming and going out of the front door. Be interesting to hear from family and friends on that one.