Casey & Family Psychological Profile #3

[Crafti]

The following links were previously posted in this thread. Casey’s BRACE Character Profile with an addendum was completed 9/22/08. The BRACE Character Profiles a prototypical 40-point Hare PCL-R Psychopath and a prototypical DSM-IV-TR Antisocial Personality Disorder (301.7) detail the cognitive-behavioral-existential similarities and differences between these diagnostic categories, including how they correlate with the DSM-IV-TR personality disorders.

Link to Casey’s BRACE Character Profile:
http://crimsonshadows.net/content/view/168/140/

Link to prototypical Psychopath:
http://www.deviantcrimes.com/BRACE of 40 pt Hare PCL R.pdf

Link to prototypical Antisocial Personality Disorder:
http://www.deviantcrimes.com/BRACE Profile of DSM 301 7.pdf

Of course, these profiles are just my opinions.
Russell

Awesome! Thank you. But the link to KC;s BRACE Character Profile isn't working, is there another?

 

[Mind student]

Whisperer, I do agree with you. Sadly, a lot of prisons offer a better lifestyle than many ever see in the community. Everything is free including education and great medical care. Far too many
are allowed to go free because they do so well inside a controlled environment, then when out repeat their crimes.
For Casey prison will not be a punishment. As for the photo of the family, my opinion is the stress is too high to judge.

Mind Student

 

[Whisperer]

This family has many issues. They appear to all be co-dependents. Lee moved out but not very far....and he is back. Kc was never going to be able to take care of herself. These 2 adult children were coddled and never given any responsibility. I suspect that CA was the most hated mother at their school. I know the type. They advocate for their children and their children are brilliant and don't deserve this punishment/grade. They also say things like, "Why don't you take a look as Suzie or Johnnie, there's the real problem"...Schools hate these MOMS and there are many.

I suggest that kc was a defiant young girl. She may have evolved into an ADD kid, left untreated....they flow into other illnesses. There may be some ADD tendencies in both Cindy and kc...but they have now evolved into thought disorders unorganized, ala racing thoughts ( may be from ADD). Both cindy and kc have narcississm and histrionics. Cindy has a few coping strategies, but kc has none, with the exception of lying. If it were not present, I suggest she may appear to be schizaffective. Her lies keep her in the game. w/o them she is gone. There are no obvious mechanisims to keep her sane. Her mind races and she simply mimics human emotions and chatter. Her thinking is very disorganized...unable to plan a hour, no less a day. She is a creature of comfort and does not venture far from her security. Anyone who really knew her would have known where she put Caylee. I leaned to the backyard, wheel well and the resovior in back of her house. I thought she would keep Caylee with her as long as possible....she was avoiding handling the problem.

She presents as narcissistic with some borderline qualities such as splitting. But borderlines and anti-socials both are narcissistic. Her anti-social cues are high around males, where she gets her compliments and is reinforced how well she is doing. She is a somatic narcissist. She is an avoidant also but don't know what the reason is for that...could be laziness or just self-indulgence.

People who could crack her would be strangers and anyone she fears. She respects what she fears. She was just starting to fear the detectives when ole Baez appeared...so LE was dropped to pond scum and Baez was elevated but she doesn't fear him; she just thinks he may hold keys to her getting out...so she won't mess with him YET!. If she were to crack and tell the truth, she most likely would take a fetal position....for awhile....then the process starts all over again.

I had recently given her credit as a possible psychopath due to her macabre qualities but she doesn't have the brains they have. They are organized. Perhaps because she is young and hasn't honed those qualities yet , that may be the answer but there is something missing with her, both with psychpath (planning and knowing how LE think) and anti-social; she misses too many cues, poor memory; I am lacking childhood behavior information. That would be the biggest help.

I have met many dumb sociopaths who were not murderers. I have also interviewed many brilliant psychopaths who were murderers. Maybe she is just a dumb psychopath.

 

[Knot4u2no]

Awesome! Thank you. But the link to KC;s BRACE Character Profile isn't working, is there another?

Click on the link and then find the Article Index at the top of the article. If you click on next at the bottom of the page, it takes you to the next article. Click on BRACE Character Profile listed under Article Index near the top of the page.

Russell

 

[Crafti]

This family has many issues. They appear to all be co-dependents. Lee moved out but not very far....and he is back. Kc was never going to be able to take care of herself. These 2 adult children were coddled and never given any responsibility. I suspect that CA was the most hated mother at their school. I know the type. They advocate for their children and their children are brilliant and don't deserve this punishment/grade. They also say things like, "Why don't you take a look as Suzie or Johnnie, there's the real problem"...Schools hate these MOMS and there are many.

I suggest that kc was a defiant young girl. She may have evolved into an ADD kid, left untreated....they flow into other illnesses. There may be some ADD tendencies in both Cindy and kc...but they have now evolved into thought disorders unorganized, ala racing thoughts ( may be from ADD). Both cindy and kc have narcississm and histrionics. Cindy has a few coping strategies, but kc has none, with the exception of lying. If it were not present, I suggest she may appear to be schizaffective. Her lies keep her in the game. w/o them she is gone. There are no obvious mechanisims to keep her sane. Her mind races and she simply mimics human emotions and chatter. Her thinking is very disorganized...unable to plan a hour, no less a day. She is a creature of comfort and does not venture far from her security. Anyone who really knew her would have known where she put Caylee. I leaned to the backyard, wheel well and the resovior in back of her house. I thought she would keep Caylee with her as long as possible....she was avoiding handling the problem.

She presents as narcissistic with some borderline qualities such as splitting. But borderlines and anti-socials both are narcissistic. Her anti-social cues are high around males, where she gets her compliments and is reinforced how well she is doing. She is a somatic narcissist. She is an avoidant also but don't know what the reason is for that...could be laziness or just self-indulgence.

People who could crack her would be strangers and anyone she fears. She respects what she fears. She was just starting to fear the detectives when ole Baez appeared...so LE was dropped to pond scum and Baez was elevated but she doesn't fear him; she just thinks he may hold keys to her getting out...so she won't mess with him YET!. If she were to crack and tell the truth, she most likely would take a fetal position....for awhile....then the process starts all over again.

I had recently given her credit as a possible psychopath due to her macabre qualities but she doesn't have the brains they have. They are organized. Perhaps because she is young and hasn't honed those qualities yet , that may be the answer but there is something missing with her, both with psychpath (planning and knowing how LE think) and anti-social; she misses too many cues, poor memory; I am lacking childhood behavior information. That would be the biggest help.

I have met many dumb sociopaths who were not murderers. I have also interviewed many brilliant psychopaths who were murderers. Maybe she is just a dumb psychopath.

Wow. This is exactly what I was talking about on the should KC receive counseling in jail thread. The parents major enablers and blind to the truths. Also interesting is the ADD element that my x also had but had never been diagnosed with (part of the parental denial, not wanting to "label" their child) until I sent him for testing.

Great post! I have been wondering about her "childhood behavior" as well.

 

[Crafti]

Click on the link and then find the Article Index at the top of the article. If you click on next at the bottom of the page, it takes you to the next article. Click on BRACE Character Profile listed under Article Index near the top of the page.

Russell

Hum, I tried again. I get an error that says Internet explorer can't open the site. I even tried going back to just the main site and get the same message.

 

[Knot4u2no]

Hum, I tried again. I get an error that says Internet explorer can't open the site. I even tried going back to just the main site and get the same message.

I switched over to Internet Explorer and it worked for me. Try this link ... it skips the introduction and goes straight to the BRACE Character Profile;

http://crimsonshadows.net/content/view/168/140/1/1/

If that doesn't work, maybe Shadowraiths can help.

Russell

 

[Brini]

This family has many issues. They appear to all be co-dependents. Lee moved out but not very far....and he is back. Kc was never going to be able to take care of herself. These 2 adult children were coddled and never given any responsibility. I suspect that CA was the most hated mother at their school. I know the type. They advocate for their children and their children are brilliant and don't deserve this punishment/grade. They also say things like, "Why don't you take a look as Suzie or Johnnie, there's the real problem"...Schools hate these MOMS and there are many.

I suggest that kc was a defiant young girl. She may have evolved into an ADD kid, left untreated....they flow into other illnesses. There may be some ADD tendencies in both Cindy and kc...but they have now evolved into thought disorders unorganized, ala racing thoughts ( may be from ADD). Both cindy and kc have narcississm and histrionics. Cindy has a few coping strategies, but kc has none, with the exception of lying. If it were not present, I suggest she may appear to be schizaffective. Her lies keep her in the game. w/o them she is gone. There are no obvious mechanisims to keep her sane. Her mind races and she simply mimics human emotions and chatter. Her thinking is very disorganized...unable to plan a hour, no less a day. She is a creature of comfort and does not venture far from her security. Anyone who really knew her would have known where she put Caylee. I leaned to the backyard, wheel well and the resovior in back of her house. I thought she would keep Caylee with her as long as possible....she was avoiding handling the problem.

She presents as narcissistic with some borderline qualities such as splitting. But borderlines and anti-socials both are narcissistic. Her anti-social cues are high around males, where she gets her compliments and is reinforced how well she is doing. She is a somatic narcissist. She is an avoidant also but don't know what the reason is for that...could be laziness or just self-indulgence.

People who could crack her would be strangers and anyone she fears. She respects what she fears. She was just starting to fear the detectives when ole Baez appeared...so LE was dropped to pond scum and Baez was elevated but she doesn't fear him; she just thinks he may hold keys to her getting out...so she won't mess with him YET!. If she were to crack and tell the truth, she most likely would take a fetal position....for awhile....then the process starts all over again.

I had recently given her credit as a possible psychopath due to her macabre qualities but she doesn't have the brains they have. They are organized. Perhaps because she is young and hasn't honed those qualities yet , that may be the answer but there is something missing with her, both with psychpath (planning and knowing how LE think) and anti-social; she misses too many cues, poor memory; I am lacking childhood behavior information. That would be the biggest help.

I have met many dumb sociopaths who were not murderers. I have also interviewed many brilliant psychopaths who were murderers. Maybe she is just a dumb psychopath.

Good one, thanks! My vote is for dumb psychopath, BTW. I have known some.

 

[Brini]

Wow. This is exactly what I was talking about on the should KC receive counseling in jail thread. The parents major enablers and blind to the truths. Also interesting is the ADD element that my x also had but had never been diagnosed with (part of the parental denial, not wanting to "label" their child) until I sent him for testing.

Great post! I have been wondering about her "childhood behavior" as well.

Prolly about the same as her "adult" behavior. She's operating on a child level. Like any Axis: II.

 

[Brini]

I totally think a portion of personality disorders are genetic but I also see perfectly good parents (who teach their children morals and consequences etc.) who's children end up personality disordered as well.

I agree. I was reading about deficiency or malfunction of "mirror neurons" in sociopaths, that might be genetic.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

I'm watching NG now and I realize how everything that comes out of KS's mouth is related to her own comfort. She never questions what Caylee must be feeling now, how she misses her, etc. (of course we know why.) But also isn't it unusual for a 22 yr old to say she just wants to be home with you guys? Shouldn't it be "I fear for my freedom, for justice?" Not , "I want my mommy and daddy?" The A's just sit there - They should say this is the bed you have crawled into, you'd better tell the truth now in hopes of a solution. And by the way, if you get out, you're on your own. When I was 22, I loved my parents (had my head issues), but wanted to be separate from them. Gradually, as I grew, we regrouped but I'm always reminding my mom "I'm a grown up woman!" But one thing is for sure, my dad made it clear that once I made a major decision, that I owned it (don't come crawling to him to bail me out, etc. - I believed him!) George should not say he would switch places with her, see? They are separate entities. She, at 22, is in charge of her own fate. I see this as a problem in our society today. Parents coddle their kids too much and put their own wishes upon them.

 

[DAWN TREADER]

Many thanks for the link to the BRACE Character Profile™ of Casey A.

I wasn't aware of the website and am anxious to check it out.

DT

 

[Woe.be.gone]

Many thanks for the link to the BRACE Character Profile™ of Casey A.

I wasn't aware of the website and am anxious to check it out.

DT

Yes, I agree. It's kind of freaking me out how much can go/be wrong with a person's mind! I'm not sure I want to know all this. Asking self "was that response narcissistic, or, worse, judging others, "my husband is so narcissistic", etc. Ha!

 

[gogrannypop]

(Redirected from Dunning-Kruger Syndrome)
Jump to: navigation, search

The Dunning-Kruger effect is an example of cognitive bias in which "people reach erroneous conclusions and make unfortunate choices, but their incompetence robs them of the metacognitive ability to realize it"[1]. They therefore suffer an illusory superiority, rating their own ability as above average.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning-Kruger_Syndrome

I think some of you don't think wiki is such a great resource, but I found this study fascinating. Seems to apply a great deal to this family. MOO

 

[kiki the parrot]

This family has many issues. They appear to all be co-dependents. Lee moved out but not very far....and he is back. Kc was never going to be able to take care of herself. These 2 adult children were coddled and never given any responsibility. I suspect that CA was the most hated mother at their school. I know the type. They advocate for their children and their children are brilliant and don't deserve this punishment/grade. They also say things like, "Why don't you take a look as Suzie or Johnnie, there's the real problem"...Schools hate these MOMS and there are many.

I suggest that kc was a defiant young girl. She may have evolved into an ADD kid, left untreated....they flow into other illnesses. There may be some ADD tendencies in both Cindy and kc...but they have now evolved into thought disorders unorganized, ala racing thoughts ( may be from ADD). Both cindy and kc have narcississm and histrionics. Cindy has a few coping strategies, but kc has none, with the exception of lying. If it were not present, I suggest she may appear to be schizaffective. Her lies keep her in the game. w/o them she is gone. There are no obvious mechanisims to keep her sane. Her mind races and she simply mimics human emotions and chatter. Her thinking is very disorganized...unable to plan a hour, no less a day. She is a creature of comfort and does not venture far from her security. Anyone who really knew her would have known where she put Caylee. I leaned to the backyard, wheel well and the resovior in back of her house. I thought she would keep Caylee with her as long as possible....she was avoiding handling the problem.

She presents as narcissistic with some borderline qualities such as splitting. But borderlines and anti-socials both are narcissistic. Her anti-social cues are high around males, where she gets her compliments and is reinforced how well she is doing. She is a somatic narcissist. She is an avoidant also but don't know what the reason is for that...could be laziness or just self-indulgence.

People who could crack her would be strangers and anyone she fears. She respects what she fears. She was just starting to fear the detectives when ole Baez appeared...so LE was dropped to pond scum and Baez was elevated but she doesn't fear him; she just thinks he may hold keys to her getting out...so she won't mess with him YET!. If she were to crack and tell the truth, she most likely would take a fetal position....for awhile....then the process starts all over again.

I had recently given her credit as a possible psychopath due to her macabre qualities but she doesn't have the brains they have. They are organized. Perhaps because she is young and hasn't honed those qualities yet , that may be the answer but there is something missing with her, both with psychpath (planning and knowing how LE think) and anti-social; she misses too many cues, poor memory; I am lacking childhood behavior information. That would be the biggest help.

I have met many dumb sociopaths who were not murderers. I have also interviewed many brilliant psychopaths who were murderers. Maybe she is just a dumb psychopath.

(bold mine) Really instructive and helpful, confirms many of my own lay observations tho your anlysis is far more knowledgable. ITA re KC's lack of fear and respect, which is why I was so frustrated when LP bonded KC out--just when she most needed to be kept in fear of LE (grrr...) Whatever his intentions, what an awful disservice this was. Anyway, I personally am not familiar enough to recognize sociopathy or psychopathy but it wasn't hard to recognize narcissism--just didn't know if this was her biggest, or only problem. When we're talking about a two year-old, I figure KC's self-centeredness and priorities alone could easily result in poor supervision, inattentiveness, and negligence which led to her child's death. And I know there is nothing about KC's reaction that is remotely how any mature, reasonable, responsible, adult would act following an accident eg. But we're not talking about that person, we're talking about a selfish, narcissistic, immature, irresponsible "unfit" mom (as per her own mother's constant repeated criticisms) who became panicstricken and if not GUILT-ridden or remorseful, no doubt FEAR-ridden. We know accidents can, and frequently DO, happen to irresponsible parents w selfish priorities. So were it KC's own negligence that was responsible (for Caylee drowning eg) after ignoring her daughter, then by the time she got around to investigating had concluded her child was well beyond any hope of revival or of ever being the same--while no responsible person could fathom neither reporting nor attempting to render aid, she presumably would have felt too afraid to report w/out support so after unsuccessful in reaching CA or GA, the window of opportunity came and went. KC's panic passes, and she copes w the fear and anxiety the way she's always done--she LIES, decides to hide her daughter, to cover everything up, vowing above all her mother must never learn the truth.

When confronted by LA, and later by LE, her underlying tone is one of guilt ("I know Mom will never forgive me," "maybe Mom was right afterall, maybe I am an unfit mother." And in jailhouse video, KC fantasizes w CA about how they will all have Caylee back ("she will be just as she was.") And there is little ambiguity as to KC's vows in jailhouse video ("I'll never again take my eyes off Caylee," "I'll be an overprotective mother from now on.") To me these are less suggestive of a crime of malice and even to a layperson more suggestive of negligence or accident. Guilt, fear of admitting the truth to CA--and perhaps pride as well, since she probably did the exact thing for which her mother constantly belittled and beraded her. I believe the kidnapping tale was KC's skillful yet pseudo gesture at accepting a negligible level of responsibility ("If only I hadn't entrusted my child to that [other] wrong person") while assuming little real fault thus still availing herself of sympathy and able to maintain blameless "victim status" in CA's eyes--which, btw, is the only thing that seems to matter, FL bring it on. So much so in fact, she would apparently rather serve LWOP or even face the DP if she can keep CA from learning the truth. I mean I'm no psychiatrist (and don't fully understand differences btw sociopathy and psychopathy or if it's equally possible for either of these to be guilty of simple negligence w/out malice resulting in accident eg) but it just struck me from the beginning: If there was malice or even intent, why not have just staged or feigned a (far more believable) accidental death if no more than a coldblooded sociopath... JMO

:waitasec:

 

[Devon]

(bold mine) Realy instructive and helpful, confirms many of my own lay observations tho your anlysis is far more knowledgable. ITA re KC's lack of fear and respect, which is why I was so frustrated when LP bonded KC out--just when she most needed to be kept in fear of LE (grrr...) Whatever his intentions, what an awful disservice this was. Anyway, I personally am not familiar enough to recognize sociopathy or psychopathy but it wasn't hard to recognize narcissism--just didn't know if this was her biggest, or only problem. When we are talking about a two year-old, I figured KC's self-centeredness and priorities alone could easily result in poor supervision, inattentiveness, and negligence which led to her child's death. And I know there is nothing about KC's reaction that is remotely how any mature, reasonable, responsible, adult would act following an accident eg. But we're not talking about that person, we're talking about a selfish, narcissistic, immature, irresponsible "unfit" mom (as per her own mother's constant repeated criticisms) who became panicstricken and if not GUILT-ridden or remorseful, no doubt FEAR-ridden. And accidents can and frequently DO happen to self-centered parents w selfish priorities. So were it KC's own negligence that was responsible (for Caylee drowning eg) after ignoring her daughter, then by the time she got around to investigating had concluded her child was well beyond any hope of revival or of ever being the same--while no responsible person could fathom neither reporting nor attempting to render aid, she presumably would have felt too afraid to report w/out support so after unsuccessful in reaching CA or GA, the window of opportunity came and went. KC's panic passes, and she copes w the fear and anxiety the way she's always done--she LIES, decides to hide her daughter, to cover everything up, vowing above all her mother must never learn the truth.

When confronted by LA, and later by LE, her underlying tone is one of guilt ("I know Mom will never forgive me," "maybe Mom was right afterall, maybe I am an unfit mother." And in jailhouse video, KC fantasizes w CA about how they will all have Caylee back ("she will be just as she was.") And there is little ambiguity as to KC's vows in jailhouse video ("I'll never again take my eyes off Caylee," "I'll be an overprotective mother from now on.") To me these are less suggestive of a crime of malice and even to a layperson clearly suggest of negligence or accident. Guilt, fear of admitting the truth to CA and perhaps pride as well, since she probably did the exact thing for which her mother constantly belittled and beraded her. I believe kidnapping story was KC's skillful yet pseudo gesture at accepting a negligible level of responsibility ("If only I hadn't trusted my daughter w that [other] wrong person") while assuming little real fault thus still availing herself of sympathy and able to maintain blameless "victim status" in CA's eyes--which it seems is the only thing that matters, FL bring it on. So much so in fact, she'd apparently rather serve LWOP or even face the DP. I mean I'm no psychiatrist (and don't fully understand differences btw sociopathy and psychopathy and whether it is equally possible for one of these to be associated w negligence resulting in accident eg) but it just struck me from the beginning: If there was intent involved, why wouldn't she have just feigned a (more believable) accidental death if she's a malicious sociopath... JMO

:waitasec:

My thoughts seem to have found their way into print without my having moved a muscle. Are you telepathic? :toast::crazy:

 

[kiki the parrot]

What whisperer refers to as possible "ADD" had me speculating or wondering if I was looking at signs of mania? She is very intense, moods vascillating--don't mean histrionics, referring more to racing speech etc that is also, along w what seem like other classic manic symptoms, described by her friends. JMO

 

[kiki the parrot]

My thoughts seem to have found their way into print without my having moved a muscle. Are you telepathic? :toast::crazy:

:blushing:

 

[Brini]

(bold mine) Really instructive and helpful, confirms many of my own lay observations tho your anlysis is far more knowledgable. ITA re KC's lack of fear and respect, which is why I was so frustrated when LP bonded KC out--just when she most needed to be kept in fear of LE (grrr...) Whatever his intentions, what an awful disservice this was. Anyway, I personally am not familiar enough to recognize sociopathy or psychopathy but it wasn't hard to recognize narcissism--just didn't know if this was her biggest, or only problem. When we're talking about a two year-old, I figure KC's self-centeredness and priorities alone could easily result in poor supervision, inattentiveness, and negligence which led to her child's death. And I know there is nothing about KC's reaction that is remotely how any mature, reasonable, responsible, adult would act following an accident eg. But we're not talking about that person, we're talking about a selfish, narcissistic, immature, irresponsible "unfit" mom (as per her own mother's constant repeated criticisms) who became panicstricken and if not GUILT-ridden or remorseful, no doubt FEAR-ridden. We know accidents can, and frequently DO, happen to irresponsible parents w selfish priorities. So were it KC's own negligence that was responsible (for Caylee drowning eg) after ignoring her daughter, then by the time she got around to investigating had concluded her child was well beyond any hope of revival or of ever being the same--while no responsible person could fathom neither reporting nor attempting to render aid, she presumably would have felt too afraid to report w/out support so after unsuccessful in reaching CA or GA, the window of opportunity came and went. KC's panic passes, and she copes w the fear and anxiety the way she's always done--she LIES, decides to hide her daughter, to cover everything up, vowing above all her mother must never learn the truth.

When confronted by LA, and later by LE, her underlying tone is one of guilt ("I know Mom will never forgive me," "maybe Mom was right afterall, maybe I am an unfit mother." And in jailhouse video, KC fantasizes w CA about how they will all have Caylee back ("she will be just as she was.") And there is little ambiguity as to KC's vows in jailhouse video ("I'll never again take my eyes off Caylee," "I'll be an overprotective mother from now on.") To me these are less suggestive of a crime of malice and even to a layperson clearly suggest of negligence or accident. Guilt, fear of admitting the truth to CA and perhaps pride as well, since she probably did the exact thing for which her mother constantly belittled and beraded her. I believe the kidnapping tale was KC's skillful yet pseudo gesture at accepting a negligible level of responsibility ("If only I hadn't entrusted my child to that [other] wrong person") while assuming little real fault thus still availing herself of sympathy and able to maintain blameless "victim status" in CA's eyes--which, btw, is the only thing that seems to matter, FL bring it on. So much so in fact, she would apparently rather serve LWOP or even face the DP if she can keep CA from learning the truth. I mean I'm no psychiatrist (and don't fully understand differences btw sociopathy and psychopathy or if it's equally possible for either of these to be guilty of simple negligence w/out malice resulting in accident eg) but it just struck me from the beginning: If there was intent involved, why not have just staged or feigned a (far more believable) accidental death if nothing more than a malicious sociopath... JMO

:waitasec:

Good one! Thanks!

 

[Gracenote]

I'm watching NG now and I realize how everything that comes out of KS's mouth is related to her own comfort. She never questions what Caylee must be feeling now, how she misses her, etc. (of course we know why.)

(Great quote respectfully snipped.)

You are right, even when my cat ran away I was torturing myself and others with thoughts about "I know he is cold; he must be so scared and lost and wondering where I am" etc. Casey doesn't seem to think about such things much. Like she has no maternal instincts. I do think that Cindy had those feelings though, and I think she has been through hell and is still there.