Casey & Family Psychological Profile #5

[Blackwatch]

Edited for personal reasons.

 

[tiredofthis]

Is this the Cindy thread? OK, good. I posted this on another thread, but wanted to leave it here too as it seems appropriate.
..........................................................................................
Tim Miller possibly talking with Cindy now.
I have a strong urge to pray and that happens rarely.
I cannot imagine how Cindy has held it together recently.
If LP was correct, then Cindy has probably had to face the paternity issue in the last couple of weeks. I sort of doubt she knew...or maybe she always 'knew' but did not know...am I making any sense at all?
Just feeling today is a very important day between Cindy and Tim.
He knows he must handle her with kid gloves.
He does not have to reach out to her at all. She has nothing to offer.
Tim is just trying to prepare her. I think he knows what it out there.
Tim knows it is a matter of very few days until those few bones are brought forward and identified.
He has a heart of GOLD.

Tim Miller is such a kind hearted man. He knows how devastated CA will be when Caylee's body is found. Having lost a daughter, he understands CA's grief and not wanting to accept the fact that Caylee is dead. I'm sure he is talking to her as gently as he can.

 

[TigerTiger]

I found some stuff on the web that I found helpful in understanding the Cindy Anthony bizarre behavior (yes, I think her behavior is bizarre and growing more so ...)

1. First, a therapist who shows diagrams for a healthy family's boundaries, esp as they extend between parents and children:

http://everyoneneedstherapy.blogspot.com/2008/02/connecting-dots.html

I'm wondering how this therapist would diagram the Anthony family ....

2. Then, a good discussion of emeshment (Cindy and Casey, for sure, I'm thinking):

http://family.jrank.org/pages/172/Boundary-Dissolution-Dimensions-Boundary-Dissolution.html

3. And, finally, a nice post summarizing The Sociopath Next Door --

http://withoutempathy.blogspot.com/2006/01/sociopaths-who-live-among-us.html

I'm wondering if Cindy is so enmeshed with Casey, psychologically, that she (Cindy) is essentially self-protecting in all these actions that I've been considering denial due to grief or horror ....

I'm thinking this enmeshment concept explains a lot of the Anthony family behaviors which appear so bizarre from the outside looking in ....

 

[Janis396]

Do not agree that Personality Disorder is up to nature. You are not born a sociopath. This is a product of your environment. Cindy has the same traits as Casey. Cindy has transferred her issues to Casey by raising her to be the way she is.

Then how do you explain sociopaths that have siblings who are "normal", that were raised in same environment and by the same parents?

 

[Janis396]

No way...George displays the classic hen-pecked husband traits. Notice who always does the talking when they are together in front of the media or the crazy protestors. George was also the one who filed or divorce a few years ago. Cindy wears the pants in that family. Casey got her lying and manipulation traits from Cindy.

There was also a domestic altercation service call in Dec, 2004 where Cindy was the defendant and George was the plaintiff.

 

[Elley Mae]

There was also a domestic altercation service call in Dec, 2004 where Cindy was the defendant and George was the plaintiff.

Casey was about 2 months pregnant at that time.

 

[Marple]

I have a new laptop and have finally been able to catch up on video from the past. I just got done watching Cindy's interview with LE (part 1 & 2). I do not know if this is a good place to comment - but I heard so much about how CINDY was a liar and crazy, etc.

Well - from everything I heard her say - she sounds as sane as a person could with having her grandaughter missing and a daughter accused of murdering her.

She sounded straight forward and trying to help LE with a timeline to the best of her ability! I thought she did remarkably well considereing the circumstances.

Where do people get off calling her a liar with LE

I agree. It's so easy for people looking in from the outside to judge her thoughts and reactions. We know things that she didn't know at the time.

At times she sounds confused, gets angry, and is obviously in denial at the time of these interviews. But considering the turmoil caused by her daughter, her reactions are normal IMO.

But I believe KC is 100% to blame for her own actions and the whole family has been held hostage by KC's mental issues for years.

 

[TURBOTHINK]

The choroform made me wonder if she was planning on doing awayy with the whole family. She wouldn't have needed chloroform to knock Caylee out.

I have wondered about that also. Since GA seemed to be the brunt of her's and LA's jokes, it may have been just him because they could control Cindy if he was gone.

 

[TURBOTHINK]

Perhaps the outfit decribed is the one she was buried in and the info was either relayed TO him or he saw it because he was there...THAT would certainly burn into the memory banks for all of eternity, right down to the shoes...imagine if it was the last time he KNEW he would ever see her and he may have had a cause to memorize her clothes...

I am back and forth on George...I just don't know anymore.:banghead:

That is a good observation. That WOULD be why someone would remember. That has been a stickler for me since the beginning. I always felt he was lying, because men are not that observant, much less a month later, but that may exactly explain WHY he would remember all the details of Caylee's clothing that day.

If that happened, I believe it was on the 24th when the "story" about the gas cans was told. I believe he opened that trunk and there was a smell and he found Caylee. I don't think they told Cindy or Lee, and tried to make it "their secret" until he could get rid of the body.

When CA called the police (unknown to GA) the game was over.

Which creates a different problem - If GA got rid of the body, it would be a lot harder for find, but KC could honestly say she did not know where it was.

 

[Brini]

I agree. It's so easy for people looking in from the outside to judge her thoughts and reactions. We know things that she didn't know at the time.

At times she sounds confused, gets angry, and is obviously in denial at the time of these interviews. But considering the turmoil caused by her daughter, her reactions are normal IMO.

But I believe KC is 100% to blame for her own actions and the whole family has been held hostage by KC's mental issues for years.

So, why enable her all her life? Excusing her lying and stealing, and covering for her is enabling. Not demanding to see the baby for over a month, but reacting forcefully and immediately when the car was towed? What's the priority?

I don't think lying to LE, and accepting lies from KC, when there's a baby missing is normal at all.

I think most normal families would have started reining her in, and correcting some of those behaviors, early on. If she stole, they might make her pay it back or sit in jail, like Judge Mathis' Mom did. If she lied, they might put a stop to THAT. I know that my parents never allowed lying.

And, please remember that CA changed her story, several times, to obscure timelines. LE confronted her about it. Like first saying that she could not reach KC while she was away, and then saying they spoke or texted every day.

 

[Brini]

What I would like to know is why isnt there any extended family members involved in this? Whether it be support for George and Cindy or to go out there and say that these people are strange or whatever just to get on tv. Usually in cases like these, an aunt, uncle, cousin, etc becomes the family spokesperson. Do Cindy and George not have ANY family, or do they but no one gets along? Also, where are Cindy's girlfriends??? Seems odd that they have no one but each other. Lee seems to be MIA as of late too. I think he is disagreeing with mommy and daddy again and know miss kc is guitly.

Per Rick, the family schismed long ago over GA and CA enabling KC. It came to a head, when KC, at seven months pregnant, kept insisting she was a virgin.

When the extended family refused to believe that wild story, and insisted that KC go to an OB, CA took umbrage.

CA has a long held behavior, apparently, of attacking anyone who disbelieves or challenges KC.

KC didn't even see an OB until she was eight months gone, and Mom is a nurse.

 

[Janis396]

So, why enable her all her life? Excusing her lying and stealing, and covering for her is enabling. Not demanding to see the baby for over a month, but reacting forcefully and immediately when the car was towed?

I don't think lying to LE, and accepting lies from KC, when there's a baby missing is normal at all.

Especially since I believe CA and GA both knew there was no "nanny" the past year and a half, but chose to instead ignore it and go along with Casey's lies to keep the peace and maintain the patterns of denial they'd created. So if they knew there was no real nanny, didn't they wonder where Caylee really was during those 31 days?

They know their daughter's a compulsive liar, so why didn't they force the issue about where Caylee was? Why the passive attitude about not seeing or speaking to Caylee for over a month, if anything, to simply to confirm her well-being??

 

[cfromcanada]

I grew up in a "normal" family. At the age of 38 my brother decided for some unknown reason decided to turn to meth. His addiction resembles alot of a sociopaths behavior and my seeminly normal family all jumped into defensive mode. We cover or are silent about his stealing, even from us. We are defeated trying to get the truth from him so we have thrown in the towel. The rages, the lies to cover up the lies..We just couldn't keep up. At the beginning we called the police but they did nothing. Now that the crimes have become more serious, we have become silent and scared. He is small and naive and we don't believe he will survive in prison so we have all become complicit. Are we crazy? No. We are just torn between someone we love with all are hearts and the hope he will come back and the idea of him spending some serious time behind bars. It is not as easy as I always thought it would be. However, the A's should remain silent and not send LE on wild goose chases and falsley accusing others..

 

[Brini]

I have wondered about that also. Since GA seemed to be the brunt of her's and LA's jokes, it may have been just him because they could control Cindy if he was gone.

I think it was GA AND CA. Remember, she told her friends that they were gonna move closer to CA's dad, and give her the house.

I have NO idea how she thought she'd get the double-disappearance past LA. But, maybe she thinks she got away with Caylee, so she can get away with anything.

 

[Brini]

I think you must have misunderstood my posts.. If it is found Casey murdered Caylee and Cindy was not involved in the actual crime, I do believe Casey is soley responsible.

I was brought up worse than Casey was, in a home far more disfunctional than what we know the Anthony home to be (obviously we don't know for sure what life was like under that roof but we have been able to see the history of 911 calls to the A's home in the past like 5 years and none of the calls were serious and IMO if there were awful things I think we'd have heard about them by now) and I did not grow up to murder my child, nor did my siblings... we all have our issues but each of us drew the line at something. So while I do believe that how a person is raised has a pretty big impact on who they end up to be, I believe we make choices in life and each of us needs to be held accountable for our own choices.

I could sit here for the rest of my life and point fingers at my mother, blaming her for every bad thing that has happened to me or I can do something to make sure I don't end up just like her. For a lot of years I thought I was destined to be like her then all of a sudden I woke up and decided no way-"no WAY am I going to allow you to decide how the rest of MY life plays out.. you controled the first half- I'ma control the rest!" and I began to get serious about changing my behaviors.

Casey knew she was turning into her mother too, she knew it when she was with Jesse (per his interview) she just chose to do nothing about it. As much as I dislike Cindy (she reminds me of my mom too, Arrgh!)) how can we hold Cindy responsible for Casey's choice?

One thing my mom taught me was we each have free will.

I was also brought up in an abusive home. "Perfect family" until the doors closed.

I was depressed and angry all of the time, until I left home.

At some point, you have to decide you are an adult and take responsibility for your attitudes and behaviors. You say, "Yeah, Mom and Dad were wrong, but that's over."

My Mom and I ended up with a good relationship. When my Dad acted out, I left the room or left the house, and went home. I told him if he hit ANYONE, I would call the cops. So, he stopped hitting.

If KC had been very unhappy at home, what was stopping her from getting a job and moving out?


One of the best women whom I know was raped by a bf of her mother from age eight to age twelve.

After years, her Mom finally divorced and prosecuted the guy.

She and her Mom had a good relationship. When I asked her how she could manage that, she said, "It takes too much energy to hate," and she forgave.

 

[JustanotherJane]

I think Cindy is mentally unstable and has been for a very long time. I would imagine that she has always been this way but having a sociopath living in the home with her probably made things even worse. I believe she may have caused some of Casey's behaviors by either enabling, or by her own mental deficiencies, most likey both. She neutered George so I would expect the children were also controlled or attempted to be by a very strong tongue. She was a lot of "blow". She liked to intimidate them. Casey liked to push back, and the last time called "checkMATE" . JMO

 

[Brini]

This is what I'm wondering about, goes back to my question on how can sociopaths be held fully accountable? Whether nature or nurture, it does not seem that sociopaths "choose" to be the way they are, so how can we hold them as fully accountable as we do those who are not sociopaths? It may not be classified as a mental illness, but clearly it is some kind of illness. Who would want to mess up their lives this much if they could exert normal human controls over behavior? I am reading about how they "don't care" as if the "not caring" is something they are doing on purpose, and of course I can understand how it can sure look to others like it is on purpose when the others have to deal with the results, but if sociopaths don't know HOW to care, then I don't see how they can be held fully accountable. Yes, in terms of intelligence they can understand there is a law against murder, but if that is "just words" to them, if they don't understand FEELINGS, so that murdering someone doesn't mean anything to them, then I fail to see how it can be said that they understand what the law means.

Mind you, I'm not trying to make excuses or argue, I'm trying to nail this down because it seems that at a certain important level they aren't responsible for their actions, and so how, in a humane society, can we flatly condemn them?

There may BE a genetic cause. At this point, nobody has a clue. There is no real evidence either way.

But, that matters not at all. Because when sociopaths WANT to control their behavior, they are certainly able to do so. Period. You don't see KC a acting out when other people are around, do you? And, you won't. She can be a model prisoner for years, and then take up crime, again, the second she is free.

Whether they can understand feelings is beside the point. They know which behaviors are unacceptable. Many sociopaths, knowing the consequences, choose NOT to commit crimes. Maybe they don't understand why normal people care, but they follow the rules, anyway-- if only to avoid punishment.

Ted Bundy and Ken Bianchi were adopted. There bio moms were street hookers. They may have used drugs. They may have been ruined before birth.

But, the fact is both grew up to become serial killers. Both could act like perfect citizens any time and for as long as they wanted. Ted was smart enough to have succeeded in any career that he chose, had he chosen to do so. He chose to kill helpless women, instead, because he enjoyed "the hunt" and "the control."

One can't say, "Oh, poor Ted, it's not REALLY his fault." Because he was not capable of living among normal people. He was a predator. He would never be anything else.

KC knew the baby was helpless. How frightened might the baby have been, when she died? But, Caylee was in the way of KC having a good time. If she remains free, what might she do NEXT? KC is a predator. We can't make her normal.

So, yes, I think we DO have to hold them responsible for their behaviors, whether nature or nurture.

MOO

 

[Brini]

That is a good observation. That WOULD be why someone would remember. That has been a stickler for me since the beginning. I always felt he was lying, because men are not that observant, much less a month later, but that may exactly explain WHY he would remember all the details of Caylee's clothing that day.

If that happened, I believe it was on the 24th when the "story" about the gas cans was told. I believe he opened that trunk and there was a smell and he found Caylee. I don't think they told Cindy or Lee, and tried to make it "their secret" until he could get rid of the body.

When CA called the police (unknown to GA) the game was over.

Which creates a different problem - If GA got rid of the body, it would be a lot harder for find, but KC could honestly say she did not know where it was.

I think GA has known what happened since the minute he smelled the car. I think he went along with some of the family stories. But, I think KC disposed of the body.

GA has been the one who, more than once, pointed out the smell to LE. Including during his latest interview.

 

[sassy_texasbelle2]

Yes, it is called control and denial.

 

[Marple]

So, why enable her all her life? Excusing her lying and stealing, and covering for her is enabling. Not demanding to see the baby for over a month, but reacting forcefully and immediately when the car was towed? What's the priority?

I don't think lying to LE, and accepting lies from KC, when there's a baby missing is normal at all.

I think most normal families would have started reining her in, and correcting some of those behaviors, early on. If she stole, they might make her pay it back or sit in jail, like Judge Mathis' Mom did. If she lied, they might put a stop to THAT. I know that my parents never allowed lying.

And, please remember that CA changed her story, several times, to obscure timelines. LE confronted her about it. Like first saying that she could not reach KC while she was away, and then saying they spoke or texted every day.

Because a sociopath doesn't just show up one day. It's an ongoing process that takes years before you realize what is happening. Often those from the outside can clearly see it but living in it is different. It is made even more difficult if it is someone that you love and care about.

I don't think KC's actions are Cindy's fault or George's fault. How do you know that CA changed her story "to obscure timelines"? This is what you believe and you have every right to that belief but people also get confused, scared and forgetful. You believe it was Cindy's intent to confuse LE but I am not so sure.

As to not demanding to see the baby for over a month, I don't think Cindy ever dreamed that KC would intentionally harm the baby until July 15 when she made that 3rd call to police. Not all sociopaths are criminals.