Casey Not Guilty?

[nort]

I watched 48 hrs mystery last night and it scared me a little. They found a woman in a burned car with duct tape wrapped around her entire head. The medical examiner ruled her death undetermined. Would not call it homicide because he could not be sure what killed her. The couple that killed her only got convicted because they talked and this is not going to happen with Casey. So I guess the duct tape is not a given. This couples story was that the woman died of an overdose they panicked and tried to get rid of the body.

 

[Ricki]

That is frightening but if the woman was dead already, why the need to duct tape her face? That in itself would lead someone to believe that something is was dreadfully wrong. She did not duct tape herself. I do see that your thoughts might be going to the defense might use that Caylee was duct tape after she died. I believe she was duct taped before.

 

[joypath]

I watched 48 hrs mystery last night and it scared me a little. They found a woman in a burned car with duct tape wrapped around her entire head. The medical examiner ruled her death undetermined. Would not call it homicide because he could not be sure what killed her. The couple that killed her only got convicted because they talked and this is not going to happen with Casey. So I guess the duct tape is not a given. This couples story was that the woman died of an overdose they panicked and tried to get rid of the body.

AND THAT IN A "NUTSHELL" is exactly why this case is cause of death undetermined BUT due to Caylee's AGE and the other factors of the scene (s) and testimony of the RESPONSIBLE GUARDIAN/PARENT and others, permitted this case to be determined as a HOMICIDE.:snooty:

On the other hand, I betcha waitasec:channeling another voice with concepts that sometimes flop:waitasec challenging Caylee's COD to turn THAT into a mitigation factor (aka accident, seizure, fall, choking, me no sabe nada) against the DP is a probable possibility!:banghead:

 

[logicalgirl]

I watched 48 hrs mystery last night and it scared me a little. They found a woman in a burned car with duct tape wrapped around her entire head. The medical examiner ruled her death undetermined. Would not call it homicide because he could not be sure what killed her. The couple that killed her only got convicted because they talked and this is not going to happen with Casey. So I guess the duct tape is not a given. This couples story was that the woman died of an overdose they panicked and tried to get rid of the body.

Hey! I watched the same program - and I was pretty disgusted with the prosecutors, especially with the video of those two loading the tanks of barbecue fluid into the trunk. However, there was a lot of fuzzy details - a question of whether or not the woman was using drugs, blah blah, but remember, the only reason the ME said the death was undetermined, because he couldn't not say absolutely how she died - was she dead before she was set on fire or before the duct tape was applied. My understanding is there is evidence on the duct tape that causes Dr. G to believe it was applied peri-mortem, but perhaps I am confused. But ICA has additional problems because Caylee was under 12, and the evidence clearly shows the crime was premeditated, plus any window of opportunity to claim this was an accidental death is well past. ICA has put far too much effort into a coverup by pretending she knows nothing about Caylee's disappearance.

I don't think we have the same concerns at all with ICA's trial.

 

[nort]

That is frightening but if the woman was dead already, why the need to duct tape her face? That in itself would lead someone to believe that something is was dreadfully wrong. She did not duct tape herself. I do see that your thoughts might be going to the defense might use that Caylee was duct tape after she died. I believe she was duct taped before.

The duct tape was barely mentioned it was not even a theory of death. When they asked the question that isnt it obvious this was murder the ME said he could not rule that way based on the evidence. Just because she had duct tape wrapped around her head and was set on fire in someones car did not mean she was murdered scientifically. Of course everyone knew she was but you had to find another way to prove it. I just did not like the idea that it was so discounted because I think this should be one of the ruling factors in Caseys case.

 

[Just Jayla]

I absolutely agree with you Jayla and you bring up some good points. Not wanting to put words in your mouth (in case you believe something different to what I do) here's the issue I see.

I believe ICA is a sociopath. She does not have the basis of original feelings the rest of us who are not sociopaths do. I'm not saying she doesn't have feelings, but her feelings are inappropriate to the rest of us.

So ICA has a real challenge at trial. She has to fake her feelings, she is acting feelings that she thinks she should have, and try to shut down the feelings she is actually having. Most of the time in the hearings we've seen, like you've said, she has actually sat there showing little or no feelings, or else she is twitching, stroking, constantly grooming, and frantically writing or watching the documents her lawyers have in front of them.

So how will the jury view her? Well she sure won't look "normal"! She'll show anger when she should be extremely distressed, she'll look bored when she should be horrified when the SA discuss how Caylee died, she will laugh inappropriately, and obviously shed a few fake tears when her lawyers are talking about her, not Caylee.

We know ICA has a very short attention span, and I don't believe all the pre-trial coaching will show a consistent change of behavior. She'll remember how she is supposed to be for a few minutes, then I think she'll revert back to her very unlikable self. In other words, I think ICA will present a "self" a jury will believe could - no did - murder her own child.

I almost feel sorry for the Defense. Not.

Nope, you got exactly what I was going for! Thanks

 

[Just Jayla]

That is frightening but if the woman was dead already, why the need to duct tape her face? That in itself would lead someone to believe that something is was dreadfully wrong. She did not duct tape herself. I do see that your thoughts might be going to the defense might use that Caylee was duct tape after she died. I believe she was duct taped before.

Unfortunately, IIRC, Dr. G did find bodily tissue on the tape, and a study of the tissue lead her to believe that the death was perimortem-Please stop me if I am reporting an urban legend here, but I do remember there being a reason Dr. G believed the tape was not placed after the death.

Will see if I can find a link to Dr. G's statement...

ETA-From WFTV:

http://www.wftv.com/news/18264817/detail.html

The remains that were found were not just bones. There was tissue left, which apparently is what the duct tape was stuck to, and hair."

 

[Gaia713]

Hey! I watched the same program - and I was pretty disgusted with the prosecutors, especially with the video of those two loading the tanks of barbecue fluid into the trunk. However, there was a lot of fuzzy details - a question of whether or not the woman was using drugs, blah blah, but remember, the only reason the ME said the death was undetermined, because he couldn't not say absolutely how she died - was she dead before she was set on fire or before the duct tape was applied. My understanding is there is evidence on the duct tape that causes Dr. G to believe it was applied peri-mortem, but perhaps I am confused. But ICA has additional problems because Caylee was under 12, and the evidence clearly shows the crime was premeditated, plus any window of opportunity to claim this was an accidental death is well past. ICA has put far too much effort into a coverup by pretending she knows nothing about Caylee's disappearance.

I don't think we have the same concerns at all with ICA's trial.

Is that ME for real? Unless the person was burned to a crisp in the fire, her lungs would h tape would slow down burning to the face. Basic autopsy routine. A good ME would be able to determine if death occured prior to duct tape or not.

 

[ExpectingUnicorns]

Unfortunately, IIRC, Dr. G did find bodily tissue on the tape, and a study of the tissue lead her to believe that the death was perimortem-Please stop me if I am reporting an urban legend here, but I do remember there being a reason Dr. G believed the tape was not placed after the death.

Will see if I can find a link to Dr. G's statement...

ETA-From WFTV:

http://www.wftv.com/news/18264817/detail.html

The remains that were found were not just bones. There was tissue left, which apparently is what the duct tape was stuck to, and hair."

Just Jayla you have a great memory and I respect you for being able to find this quote to support it! Did you notice, though, that it is not a quote from Dr G? As a matter of fact, the news article give no attribute to the statement. They never say from whom they received this information. I think you may have found the source of the urban legend. . . The article also states, "The remains that were found were not just bones. There was tissue left, which apparently is what the duct tape was stuck to, and hair." I think this was an early (Dec 12), hurried report that was inaccurate. IIRC this was long before any of Dr G's statements or findings were released. I don't even know if she had seen the remains at this early date.

You are 100% correct that she says the tape was placed "peri-mortem" and there is great discussion as to exactly what that means. Literally, I guess it means near the time of death ~ but how near? Does it mean a period to include both before and after her death? I am sure Casey's defense team will ask Dr G these questions at trial. . . and we probably won't know exactly what she meant until then. The answer may be one that none of us like. It may very well be that Dr G does not know ~ but at least she will be able to explain why she knows it was near the time of death.

(I sure wish I had your great memory and recall of facts!)

 

[logicalgirl]

Just Jayla you have a great memory and I respect you for being able to find this quote to support it! Did you notice, though, that it is not a quote from Dr G? As a matter of fact, the news article give no attribute to the statement. They never say from whom they received this information. I think you may have found the source of the urban legend. . . The article also states, "The remains that were found were not just bones. There was tissue left, which apparently is what the duct tape was stuck to, and hair." I think this was an early (Dec 12), hurried report that was inaccurate. IIRC this was long before any of Dr G's statements or findings were released. I don't even know if she had seen the remains at this early date.

You are 100% correct that she says the tape was placed "peri-mortem" and there is great discussion as to exactly what that means. Literally, I guess it means near the time of death ~ but how near? Does it mean a period to include both before and after her death? I am sure Casey's defense team will ask Dr G these questions at trial. . . and we probably won't know exactly what she meant until then. The answer may be one that none of us like. It may very well be that Dr G does not know ~ but at least she will be able to explain why she knows it was near the time of death.

(I sure wish I had your great memory and recall of facts!)

Yes, I remember it as being something on the duct tape but don't remember it as "bodily tissue" and something that indicated to Dr. G. it was placed on her before death. Darned if I remember what it was so "a hunting I will go". Where's Joypath? I'm sure she could tell us!

 

[ZsaZsa]

Yes, I remember it as being something on the duct tape but don't remember it as "bodily tissue" and something that indicated to Dr. G. it was placed on her before death. Darned if I remember what it was so "a hunting I will go". Where's Joypath? I'm sure she could tell us!

Here is the autopsy report. I believe she has stated that the duct tape was applied "prior to decomposition".
The duct tape was attached to scalp hair (page 2). The mandible was still in its anatomic location, but there was no tissue under the duct tape.

http://www.wftv.com/pdf/19801498/detail.html

 

[Just Jayla]

Just Jayla you have a great memory and I respect you for being able to find this quote to support it! Did you notice, though, that it is not a quote from Dr G? As a matter of fact, the news article give no attribute to the statement. They never say from whom they received this information. I think you may have found the source of the urban legend. . . The article also states, "The remains that were found were not just bones. There was tissue left, which apparently is what the duct tape was stuck to, and hair." I think this was an early (Dec 12), hurried report that was inaccurate. IIRC this was long before any of Dr G's statements or findings were released. I don't even know if she had seen the remains at this early date.

You are 100% correct that she says the tape was placed "peri-mortem" and there is great discussion as to exactly what that means. Literally, I guess it means near the time of death ~ but how near? Does it mean a period to include both before and after her death? I am sure Casey's defense team will ask Dr G these questions at trial. . . and we probably won't know exactly what she meant until then. The answer may be one that none of us like. It may very well be that Dr G does not know ~ but at least she will be able to explain why she knows it was near the time of death.

(I sure wish I had your great memory and recall of facts!)

I wish I had recalled facts instead of WFTV's embelishment! You bring up a great point, Dr. G will be asked to tell the jury how she determined perimortem vs. post mortem, and that could be a problem (or not).
There are many posts here debating back and forth whether KC could have applied the tape after death and this is hugely important, because it could mean the difference between covering up an accident or aggravated child abuse (which carries the DP)....although KC did the Google searches that are suspect and imply premeditation, Caylee was not killed by neck breaking or a household weapon (that we can confirm), and the chloroform issue still has its own set of problems because the air samples, which are new science, will have to come into play.
Yuck.

 

[Just Jayla]

WFTV stinks on ice....the report clearly says "NO visible soft tissue beneath the duct tape"...see page 2, item C-2:

http://www.autopsyfiles.org/reports/Other/anthony, caylee_report.pdf

She specifies that the tape was placed prior to decomp, because the mandible was held in place. This is her frst indication of the timing of the placement, but it does not preclude the tape being placed after Cayee was dead, but not yet decomposing.

 

[Just Jayla]

Here is the autopsy report. I believe she has stated that the duct tape was applied "prior to decomposition".
The duct tape was attached to scalp hair (page 2). The mandible was still in its anatomic location, but there was no tissue under the duct tape.

http://www.wftv.com/pdf/19801498/detail.html

....and I just repeated what you already posted!! Okay, need more coffee....

 

[feddup]

OJ had Barry Scheck get the jury all befuddled about the validity of DNA samples and their validity that he walked. I wonder what he would do with this case to get Casey off? DNA testing has progressed from then and the public's trust in it's findings to convict people are noteworthy. I wonder, if OJ went on trial today with the exact same samples and trust in DNA sampling, would he walk on his murder case. I think with the DNA sampling in ICA's case will be damning and she will fry. JMO

This is true. That many yrs ago DNA was very new and I dont think the jurors really understood it. Now, its very helpful
And that glove thing was ridiculous...leather shrinks and thats why the dam* glove seemed so small on his hand. Didnt take a rocke scientist to figure that out.
I dont think ICA will walk. FL is ALOT different when it comes to judging people.
ICA is either a sick girl or shes just good at keeping her mouth shut, IMO, she did it. Her parents should think what it would be like if she DID get out. I think people would be after her and they would have same mob in front of their house again. Maybe she could move away and change her looks. That is the only way she would be able to survive. She might be actually better off in prison. Dont know how Ssan Smith is doing but it sure seems like most people dont like baby killers:furious:

 

[joypath]

Yes, I remember it as being something on the duct tape but don't remember it as "bodily tissue" and something that indicated to Dr. G. it was placed on her before death. Darned if I remember what it was so "a hunting I will go". Where's Joypath? I'm sure she could tell us!

Here I be! NO BODY TISSUE OTHER THAN BONE AND HAIR WAS FOUND. (yep, technically we get to call "bone" body tissue so maybe some fancy talking head was being "super analytical" and "show-offy") The fact that the tape was placed prior to decomposition was based on the position of Caylee's mandible. Please note: the autopsy report DOES NOT state if the tape was placed pre, peri, or anti-mortem with any timeline specificity due to the advanced stage of decomposition, exactly the same reason why a confirmed, exact cause of death can NOT be assigned.

 

[logicalgirl]

Here I be! NO BODY TISSUE OTHER THAN BONE AND HAIR WAS FOUND. (yep, technically we get to call "bone" body tissue so maybe some fancy talking head was being "super analytical" and "show-offy") The fact that the tape was placed prior to decomposition was based on the position of Caylee's mandible. Please note: the autopsy report DOES NOT state if the tape was placed pre, peri, or anti-mortem with any timeline specificity due to the advanced stage of decomposition, exactly the same reason why a confirmed, exact cause of death can NOT be assigned.

Thank you Joypath! So is it an urban legend that I believe it was believed to have been placed peri-mortem - for the life of me I thought that came out of Dr. G's mouth because it wouldn't be like my mind to have made it up. Any ideas or was it simply because of the mandible?

 

[ThinkTank]

what Dr. G's autopsy report said about the duct tape

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,527469,00.html

excerpt from Caylee’s autopsy report
“….”This duct tape was clearly placed prior to decomposition keeping the mandible in place.”"

http://www.wesh.com/download/2009/0619/19802034.pdf
36 page autopsy report

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5156832&postcount=379"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - 2009.10.09 Duct Tape Photos From Remains Released[/ame]
excellent post by BondJamesBond 5/7/2010 about the duct tape

 

[logicalgirl]

what Dr. G's autopsy report said about the duct tape

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,527469,00.html

excerpt from Caylee’s autopsy report
“….”This duct tape was clearly placed prior to decomposition keeping the mandible in place.”"

http://www.wesh.com/download/2009/0619/19802034.pdf
36 page autopsy report

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - 2009.10.09 Duct Tape Photos From Remains Released
excellent post by BondJamesBond 5/7/2010 about the duct tape

Thank you Thinktank - we can always count on you to just appear when you are really needed!
:blowkiss:

 

[Horace Finklestein]

The question still is, imo, why put duct tape on a dead body?