Casey seeing clergy in jail

[OneLostGrl]

Yes, I am a Christian & no, I am not offended by you asking. I know we are taught only God can judge & that will forgive our sins if we ask & are truely contrite in our hearts. For me, I take issue with God will forgive anything. Does he? I don't know. I think there are some sins in life that are so horrible God doesn't forgive. If I believed all one has to do is simply ask for forgiveness & it is granted, then I would have to believe no matter how you live your life, how many murders you commit or how many children you rape, you will be seated in heaven with God. I DON'T believe that. I think hell is there for a reason.
My very catholic inlaws ( and I am also catholic) tell me my son in law who is Hindu won't go to heaven because he is not "christian." I don't agree with them either. I think God created all man, regardless of race or religion.

I have no issue with anyone praying for KC's soul, but I won't do it. I dont want her to find peace, she doesn't deserve it. I want her to be in a living hell on earth for a very long time. For people like KC, I just don't think forgiveness sholuld come so easy & I dont think all souls are worth praying for . JMO

Thank you so much for answering my question and for being willing to take the question for what it was.. just a question with no judgement behind it!

I too think some things are simply unforgiveable.

 

[JBean]

I think when discussing the reasons why kc wants visits from a minister, esp long visits, it is reasonable to discuss if she is seeking forgiveness & guideance. Sometimes that discussion can have a natural path to a discussion on religon. Maybe we need a thread on if KC will find forgiveness.

I totally agree with you LeLe and I posted as such. That's why I wanted to remind everyone to be careful. We just don't want any kind of religious debate.I don't think another thread is warranted, espcially on a topic that would be based in our own religious beliefs.

 

[OneLostGrl]

I think there is often confusion between forgiveness and approval. I hope I'm not a "religious" person, but I do try to be a follower of Christ so don't believe myself in a position to withhold forgiveness from others. I guess my bible must have a few "extra" verses, ie in Matt. Ch. 6 (vs 15-19) and Ch. 23 (vs 18-35) etc etc...

'So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you from the heart do not forgive his brother his trespasses.'

"When we make the choice to not forgive someone, another person, we are essentially putting a handcuff on the wrist of that person and sending them off to debtor's prison. But that's only half of it since God says the catch is that if we don't forgive He puts the other handcuff on us and we go to debtor's prison right alongside with the person that we refused to forgive. The choice is ours. We either will forgive or else we're locked up in this debtor's prison--figuratively, of course.

It's worth noticing another statement that Jesus made in Ch. 6 vs 12. 'And forgive us our debts, As we forgive our debtors.'

Just two verses later Jesus makes it very clear exactly what He meant. There is no question left at all. He didn't put any conditions on the duty to forgive, but He also made no exceptions."

"For if you forgive men their trespasses, then your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

The above is from a transcript of a bible lesson. I find it very useful and instructive. I find so much vitriol spewed re this case, but I feel more sorrow than anything. I'm one who could easily have been ensnared by unforgiveness if I so chose. Personally, I don't believe God is saying never to judge actions (such as KC's) as wrong, but rather to judge ourselves first; to love the sinner while hating the sin; to respect the powers of authority; and to leave the final judgment to Him. JMHO

I think you misunderstood, I'm not confused.

 

[LeLe1953]

Thank you so much for answering my question and for being willing to take the question for what it was.. just a question with no judgement behind it!

I too think some things are simply unforgiveable.

No problem. I never took it as any kind of judgment. I respect everyone's different religous views or lack of them. As JBean says it's personal.
My hope is KC spends the time with the minister LISTENING. It does not appear anyone else could get thru to her. I personally think that is due to her need for her mothers approval. Maybe the minister can impress upon her that is not nearly as important as Gods approval. I hope now that she is away from everyone, she will listen to him with an open heart & do the right thing. If the minister can make that happen, I don't care what his personal beliefs are.

 

[cyberborg]

I find it odd that her attorney would even let her talk to a minister....he has made it clear she will not speak to anyone until the time is right.:bang:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2079833/posts

>However, Dr. Schurman-Kauflin said that there are signs to look for, which could signify Anthony is getting ready to talk.

>"Look for her to turn to religion and either attempt to or speak of fleeing. When she gets to that point, she is most likely to talk about what really happened."

 

[Charmed Life]

It is almost typical for prisoners/offenders to find god and complete the 12 steps, to appeal to the jurys, courts, etc.


Ste1 - We admitted we were powerless over our addiction - that our lives had become unmanageable
O, KC confessing that her life had become too much for her to handle.

Step 2 - Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity

umm. well I don;t think there is any power great enough to restore KC to the sanity that the rest of us profess to know.

Step 3 - Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood God Yeah, good plea bargain theory


Step 4 - Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves yeah, right.


Step 5 - Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs , well if she really admitted it, that would be a differnt story.

Sep 6 - Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character , umm, again, is that possible???


Step 7 - Humbly asked God to remove our shortcomings Is killing your daughter a 'shortcoming'

Step 8 - Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all Whoa.... list is so long it will take KC her entire life to get through.


Step 9 - Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others Ummm.. proven, she'll throw almost anyone under the train.


Step 10 - Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it , Yup, admitted she lied a little when confronted.


Step 11 - Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood God, praying only for knowledge of God's will for us and the power to carry that out Hence the need for clergy while locked up.


Step 12 - Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to other addicts, and to practice these principles in all our affairs

Yeah, right. What awakeining.... is that the story we are going to hear while on trial? Is this the sotry that will make us all understand??

I have known personally those that would use these 12 steps to make it all look good for court, while none of them actually believed or followed the steps. I think KC's little attempt to have contact with clergy is the equivilant of her 'doing' the steps. I'm not saying that KC is going to use the 12 step program, but if she did, it would look good for the defense team. I'm also not blaming the 'finding god" theory, but at this point, I think she is going to use anything she can to make herself look good. Too many celebs/ faux celebs have used the 'finding god" theory to make themsleves look good, and I am sick of them using this as an excuse for thier former behavior.

 

[CaliKid]

To be really Christian and receive God's forgiveness means admitting your sins and seeking forgiveness, both from God and from those you have harmed. I personally don't think KC is capable of admitting to wrongdoing, even to God. But she certainly won't come clean to anyone else.

 

[mamaneecy]

I look at it this way. Forgiveness does not happen without true repentance. In order to be truely rependant you have to admit to god and everyone else your guilt. Anyone who is truely rependant will not stand up with their hand on a bible or plead not guilty. As the grandmother of a murdered grandbaby, I can tell you what we were told by our solicitor and two different judges. You can find all the religion in the world but it won't do you any good when you come before a court of law. We were told they see it all the time, defendants showing up with their newfound religion and their pastors and supporters from the church. In the scheme of things according to them "that don't matter". Not saying Casey is even interested in finding religion, she may not even be responding to the minister. Besides God, IMO the only person whom is required to do the forgiving is the one whom is sinned against and in this case as in the case of my grandson - well now they're not here to do that now are they? I know I sure will not be forgiving the one whom caused the death of my beautiful sweet innocent grandbaby and I am sick of being told from HIS fellow church members that we HAVE to forgive him. I tell them to wait until someone kills one of their own and come back and talk to me. Then I pray at night that they never know this most devastating senseless pain. I'm not sure how I feel about the passing of messages if this is happening. I just hope they are read incoming or outgoing. Sorry for the religious reference of this post but this just hits too close to my heart to remain quiet.

 

[zadari]

I look at it this way. Forgiveness does not happen without true repentance. In order to be truely rependant you have to admit to god and everyone else your guilt. Anyone who is truely rependant will not stand up with their hand on a bible or plead not guilty. As the grandmother of a murdered grandbaby, I can tell you what we were told by our solicitor and two different judges. You can find all the religion in the world but it won't do you any good when you come before a court of law. We were told they see it all the time, defendants showing up with their newfound religion and their pastors and supporters from the church. In the scheme of things according to them "that don't matter". Not saying Casey is even interested in finding religion, she may not even be responding to the minister. Besides God, IMO the only person whom is required to do the forgiving is the one whom is sinned against and in this case as in the case of my grandson - well now they're not here to do that now are they? I know I sure will not be forgiving the one whom caused the death of my beautiful sweet innocent grandbaby and I am sick of being told from HIS fellow church members that we HAVE to forgive him. I tell them to wait until someone kills one of their own and come back and talk to me. Then I pray at night that they never know this most devastating senseless pain. I'm not sure how I feel about the passing of messages if this is happening. I just hope they are read incoming or outgoing. Sorry for the religious reference of this post but this just hits too close to my heart to remain quiet.

oh im so sorry for the loss of your grandbaby and imho your justified in how you feel i agree 100%

 

[MOMto5]

I look at it this way. Forgiveness does not happen without true repentance. In order to be truely rependant you have to admit to god and everyone else your guilt. Anyone who is truely rependant will not stand up with their hand on a bible or plead not guilty. As the grandmother of a murdered grandbaby, I can tell you what we were told by our solicitor and two different judges. You can find all the religion in the world but it won't do you any good when you come before a court of law. We were told they see it all the time, defendants showing up with their newfound religion and their pastors and supporters from the church. In the scheme of things according to them "that don't matter". Not saying Casey is even interested in finding religion, she may not even be responding to the minister. Besides God, IMO the only person whom is required to do the forgiving is the one whom is sinned against and in this case as in the case of my grandson - well now they're not here to do that now are they? I know I sure will not be forgiving the one whom caused the death of my beautiful sweet innocent grandbaby and I am sick of being told from HIS fellow church members that we HAVE to forgive him. I tell them to wait until someone kills one of their own and come back and talk to me. Then I pray at night that they never know this most devastating senseless pain. I'm not sure how I feel about the passing of messages if this is happening. I just hope they are read incoming or outgoing. Sorry for the religious reference of this post but this just hits too close to my heart to remain quiet.

I am so very sorry for your tragic loss, mamaneecy.

 

[ValleyGirl]

Is JB that will decide when the time is right for KC to have visitors, or can she make this decision on her own? Will the clergy be part of this decision?

And does anyone know what will make that determination of "when" the time will be right?

 

[pregodego2]

Basically it comes down to if her heart is true or not. If she is truely seeking God's guidance and help, and truely accepting Him into her heart then she has remorse for what she's done, even if she doesn't show the public..honestly it isn't our business..and isn't that what we wanted all along, for her to be remorseful and feel bad for what she's done?

On the other hand, if she is seeking God without a true heart and just to save face in the public eye, the media and with judges then God knows that, He sees that and He won't be helping her anytime soon. If she isn't truely seeking Him into her heart and life then He isn't going to be able to truely work in her life.

Either way, that's between her and God, and she will have to answer for her sin wether that's killing her child, neglecting or harming her child, lieing, stealing etc. Wether she is saved or not, she will still have to answer for those things.

Not a religious debate, just seeing it for what it is. Truthful seeking and she'll have to answer and be punished for her sins even if she is saved, or it's all fake and therefore it doesn't matter how many clergymen she talks to, nothing good will come of her life.

Just because you are saved or have God in your life, God still makes you reep what you sow. You must still answer for what you've done and if you truely are seeking HIS way, then you accept that punishment humbly and know you deserve it.
http://patriot.net/~bmcgin/whatyoudo.html

 

[Salem]

IMO, she is not telling him anything. Truly I doubt that this girl saw the inside of a church very often or gave religion a second thought. Either it is a ploy to make her look remorseful or gain public sympathy. She is using him just like she used everyone else. Unfortunately for the preacher, priest, whatever he is most likely wasting his time and being used. Him I feel sorry for. KC not so much.

I think she is using him for company. This is a very socially active person we have here. She is locked up 24/7 with an hour to shower or shop. She is alone all day, every day and is probably going stir crazy. The peacher, besides her lawyer, is probably the only person she can talk to without fear that it will show up on the 6:00 p.m. news. I doubt she says anything of significance, she probably just talks for the sake of talking and is happy to have someone listening and maybe giving her a run down on the weather, etc.

Casey appears to be a very "adaptable" personality so I don't really think the structure and isolation of the jail is that hard on her, but I do think she has a need to talk. Not about anything important, just a need to talk. I think once she is in general pop., she will probably thrive. I'm sure she will be a model prisoner.

Salem

 

[RR0004]

Everyone in jail finds "God". Praying for their own butts.

...how true.

 

[RR0004]

I agree and disagree with this one.

Let me say that I was raised baptist and listened to both fire and brimstone preachers and love thy neighbor preachers. I went to sunday school and attended church on and off.

My form of religion now I define as my religion. I believe that the bible is a history book for the most part. It is a collection of stories told to make various points. Some of what is in the bible makes sense to me and some do not. Some things contradict each other and leave you to either take your preachers opinion or form you own. I have formed my own. Some things just simply do not apply to the world today. I don't attend church any more. My church is in me and all around me. so to speak. I believe in Karma and believe that our souls continue until we are reborn in another body. Our souls are pure energy and energy can not die so when our bodies die, our souls get new ones.

I agree that those that show mercy should also receive mercy but I disagree that everyone is deserving of mercy. If they did not show mercy to others in their lives then they do not deserve to have this from others.

If KC did kill Caylee on purpose, then she did not show her own child mercy and deserves non from me. She did not live up to the code.

If KC killed Caylee accidentally she may deserve mercy but only if she shows remorse.

If KC did not kill Caylee accidentally or on purpose and is a grieving mother, then she is definitely deserving of mercy and pity.

Does that mean that I pass judgement on other people. Yes because God or whatever higher being there is made me a thinking person. Someone who has the ability to gather facts and make an informed decision. I do not believe that he wants us to blindly follow without conscious thought and without questioning what is rational and what is not. If he did, he would have made us all brainless idiots and we would still be living in caves.

One last thought. Since I am responsible for my own thoughts, feelings, and actions, if one day I must stand before God and be judge, then if I do not feel nor offer mercy to KC, I am willing to take that stand before God. If God wishes to offer her his mercy, then he may do so. I can not offer his mercy to her, it is not mine to give.

Sorry for the long post. I usually don't talk religion because too many people think that their way is the only way and I don't agree. I think that there are many right ways and it is up to us to decide which way is the right one for us.

Wow...very insightful.

(and just when I was gonna say that religion is very personal and may best be left out of discussion...but that's JMHO)

 

[RR0004]

Is JB that will decide when the time is right for KC to have visitors, or can she make this decision on her own? Will the clergy be part of this decision?

And does anyone know what will make that determination of "when" the time will be right?

I always thought it was her decision...one I'm sure she'll make after discussion with her attorney. I can't see what harm it would do to talk with her family. They're good at talking the talk.

 

[mamaneecy]

Zadari and Momto5 Thank you. I am not very religious but I do have great faith and I pray every single day for the peace to get through yet another day. Most of all- I pray for justice for all the abused and angel children.

 

[OneLostGrl]

I look at it this way. Forgiveness does not happen without true repentance. In order to be truely rependant you have to admit to god and everyone else your guilt. Anyone who is truely rependant will not stand up with their hand on a bible or plead not guilty. As the grandmother of a murdered grandbaby, I can tell you what we were told by our solicitor and two different judges. You can find all the religion in the world but it won't do you any good when you come before a court of law. We were told they see it all the time, defendants showing up with their newfound religion and their pastors and supporters from the church. In the scheme of things according to them "that don't matter". Not saying Casey is even interested in finding religion, she may not even be responding to the minister. Besides God, IMO the only person whom is required to do the forgiving is the one whom is sinned against and in this case as in the case of my grandson - well now they're not here to do that now are they? I know I sure will not be forgiving the one whom caused the death of my beautiful sweet innocent grandbaby and I am sick of being told from HIS fellow church members that we HAVE to forgive him. I tell them to wait until someone kills one of their own and come back and talk to me. Then I pray at night that they never know this most devastating senseless pain. I'm not sure how I feel about the passing of messages if this is happening. I just hope they are read incoming or outgoing. Sorry for the religious reference of this post but this just hits too close to my heart to remain quiet.

I'm so sorry for your loss :blowkiss:

 

[LeLe1953]

I look at it this way. Forgiveness does not happen without true repentance. In order to be truely rependant you have to admit to god and everyone else your guilt. Anyone who is truely rependant will not stand up with their hand on a bible or plead not guilty. As the grandmother of a murdered grandbaby, I can tell you what we were told by our solicitor and two different judges. You can find all the religion in the world but it won't do you any good when you come before a court of law. We were told they see it all the time, defendants showing up with their newfound religion and their pastors and supporters from the church. In the scheme of things according to them "that don't matter". Not saying Casey is even interested in finding religion, she may not even be responding to the minister. Besides God, IMO the only person whom is required to do the forgiving is the one whom is sinned against and in this case as in the case of my grandson - well now they're not here to do that now are they? I know I sure will not be forgiving the one whom caused the death of my beautiful sweet innocent grandbaby and I am sick of being told from HIS fellow church members that we HAVE to forgive him. I tell them to wait until someone kills one of their own and come back and talk to me. Then I pray at night that they never know this most devastating senseless pain. I'm not sure how I feel about the passing of messages if this is happening. I just hope they are read incoming or outgoing. Sorry for the religious reference of this post but this just hits too close to my heart to remain quiet.

:blowkiss: I am very sorry for the loss of your grandbaby. No say's you have to forgive. If you to stay mad as hell, you do that. God will wrap his arms around you & give you comfort.

 

[Knot4u2no]

I don't disagree with you. I actually agree. I'm just asking about the mentioning of the commandment "thou shall not kill." I was saying that there are many exceptions to it, as you have mentioned. the contradictions in religions is one of the reasons that I'm an agnostic.
so, thou shall not kill has exceptions.

There are several different Hebrew words that are translated into the English KILL. Several categories or types of “killing” are differentiated in the Old Testament, including murder, self-defense, accidental, and the death penalty. The Hebrew word (Strong concordance number 7523) that is translated KILL at Exodus 20:13 (Thou shalt not kill.) means to dash in pieces – i.e., to kill a human being, specifically to murder.

Just my observations and opinions,
Russell