Casey's Pants & the Knife and The Cleaning of the Pontiac

[snow_walker]

They could both be MY 'best of friends', at least as far as this case is concerned. Both are bright insightful people who express themselves well, and spend time and thought on their input. Just one of those things where two worthwhile ppl get a wee bit annoyed with each other, nothing serious in my books. and I profited by reading both posts, or rather both people's posts.. oh, you know what I mean..

 

[JBean]

so anyway, about the pants and the knife.

 

[shgrbkr]

IMO, CA washing those pants was the worst thing that could have happened in the prosecution's case. I also think she knew EXACTLY what she was doing....way more than her claim that they just "smelled" like the car or whatever it was she said. Those pants were THE smoking gun that literally went down the drain.

 

[OneLostGrl]

They could both be MY 'best of friends', at least as far as this case is concerned. Both are bright insightful people who express themselves well, and spend time and thought on their input. Just one of those things where two worthwhile ppl get a wee bit annoyed with each other, nothing serious in my books. and I profited by reading both posts, or rather both people's posts.. oh, you know what I mean..

:blowkiss:

 

[I Din Doot]

IIRC in AL's statement to LE, a tire iron was used to access the shed and retrieve gas cans. I don't think the knife had any role in that operation.

 

[I Din Doot]

CA washed the pants for a reason and I don't think it was simply because they had absorbed the odor that permeated the car.

Having much experience at hauling things in my trunk that would be more appropriate in a truck (potting soil,chicken feed,dog food), I have discovered that it is the rare occasion that I remove said items from the trunk without snagging the trunk latch and spilling some in the trunk.

Trash bags with a 40LB decomposing body inside are very similar in size and weight but probably more difficult to move than factory packaged items.
Given KC's slight stature, she would have struggled to move the bag in or out of the trunk without snagging and causing a leak.

KC's posture in carrying the bag would probably be holding the top of the bag in her hands with the bulk of the weight supported by the thigh as she hurried into the woods resulting in a spill of decomp fluids down her pants and possibly onto her shoes.(NOTE no forensics returned on shoes from car).

My point is: I don't think the pants were washed because CA is a clean freak or that they absorbed an odor. IMHO there was definate physical evidence that was destroyed by CA.

 

[AnotherGladysKravitz]

CA washed the pants for a reason and I don't think it was simply because they had absorbed the odor that permeated the car.

Having much experience at hauling things in my trunk that would be more appropriate in a truck (potting soil,chicken feed,dog food), I have discovered that it is the rare occasion that I remove said items from the trunk without snagging the trunk latch and spilling some in the trunk.

Trash bags with a 40LB decomposing body inside are very similar in size and weight but probably more difficult to move than factory packaged items.
Given KC's slight stature, she would have struggled to move the bag in or out of the trunk without snagging and causing a leak.

KC's posture in carrying the bag would probably be holding the top of the bag in her hands with the bulk of the weight supported by the thigh as she hurried into the woods resulting in a spill of decomp fluids down her pants and possibly onto her shoes.(NOTE no forensics returned on shoes from car).

My point is: I don't think the pants were washed because CA is a clean freak or that they absorbed an odor. IMHO there was definate physical evidence that was destroyed by CA.

Excellent point and a very likely scenario.

 

[I Din Doot]

Thanks!

I left out some theory that relates directly to the spillage in the trunk.

1. Items in contact with the spillage would leave a footprint , ie gas cans, trash bags, tire iron, VACUUM CLEANERS, etc.

2. Body double bagged with/without leakage would make a difference in the decomp signature. (exposure to oxygen) (anaerobic vs aerobic)

Don't beat on me, I'm the new guy sharing a theory. After months of lurking, I spilled.:chicken:

 

[Hot Dogs]

CA washed the pants for a reason and I don't think it was simply because they had absorbed the odor that permeated the car.

Having much experience at hauling things in my trunk that would be more appropriate in a truck (potting soil,chicken feed,dog food), I have discovered that it is the rare occasion that I remove said items from the trunk without snagging the trunk latch and spilling some in the trunk.

Trash bags with a 40LB decomposing body inside are very similar in size and weight but probably more difficult to move than factory packaged items.
Given KC's slight stature, she would have struggled to move the bag in or out of the trunk without snagging and causing a leak.

KC's posture in carrying the bag would probably be holding the top of the bag in her hands with the bulk of the weight supported by the thigh as she hurried into the woods resulting in a spill of decomp fluids down her pants and possibly onto her shoes.(NOTE no forensics returned on shoes from car).

My point is: I don't think the pants were washed because CA is a clean freak or that they absorbed an odor. IMHO there was definate physical evidence that was destroyed by CA.

I suspect that the canvas laundry bag was used to contain and transport the body (at least into the woods). That laundry bag has handles and also a waterproof liner. With the trash bags inside, it presumably wouldn't leak and would be resistant to tears and punctures. This means it could have been moved without getting fluids on clothing or shoes.

I don't think a washing would remove all of the forensic evidence from pants that were exposed to fluids from a decomposing body. I've read that clothing and fabrics generally need to be destroyed after that kind of exposure.

 

[chefmom]

so anyway, about the pants and the knife.

Hahahahaha! This just cracked me up right there in the middle of everything!

:floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh:

 

[chefmom]

They could both be MY 'best of friends', at least as far as this case is concerned. Both are bright insightful people who express themselves well, and spend time and thought on their input. Just one of those things where two worthwhile ppl get a wee bit annoyed with each other, nothing serious in my books. and I profited by reading both posts, or rather both people's posts.. oh, you know what I mean..

Awwww! Come on! Group hug!

:grouphug:

 

[OneLostGrl]

Thanks!

I left out some theory that relates directly to the spillage in the trunk.

1. Items in contact with the spillage would leave a footprint , ie gas cans, trash bags, tire iron, VACUUM CLEANERS, etc.

2. Body double bagged with/without leakage would make a difference in the decomp signature. (exposure to oxygen) (anaerobic vs aerobic)

Don't beat on me, I'm the new guy sharing a theory. After months of lurking, I spilled.:chicken:

Your thoughts make a lot of sense, imo. Glad ya came out of hiding

 

[aqua_mom]

Didn't LE pass on taking things from the car at first? If so, why would CA not think it was okay for her to wash the pants? GA had also told CA that the smell was an old pizza. Let's remember that she was holding onto the slightest bit of hope that the smell was anything but what she and GA both initially thought it was.

As Hotdogs pointed out, I believe they would still be able to detect bodily fluids even after a washing with regular detergent. If this was a smoking gun - it should still be so.

 

[distracted 1976]

Okay, after all this talk about "spillage" I listened yet again to GA interview and I cannot find any description of what Casey was wearing on the day of the gas can incident. Did I miss it? Surely this had to have been addressed. Anyone?

 

[steadychick]

IMO, CA washing those pants was the worst thing that could have happened in the prosecution's case. I also think she knew EXACTLY what she was doing....way more than her claim that they just "smelled" like the car or whatever it was she said. Those pants were THE smoking gun that literally went down the drain.

Oh!, I so TA with you! What a shame that this evidence was deliberately destroyed! Perhaps this explains why CA has not yet been charged with obstruction. I don't think it can be proved that washing the pants was obstruction UNLESS it can be proved there was a crime (murder). Perhaps we'll see charges brought against the Anthonys AFTER KC is convicted.

 

[spqr]

Thanks!

I left out some theory that relates directly to the spillage in the trunk.

1. Items in contact with the spillage would leave a footprint , ie gas cans, trash bags, tire iron, VACUUM CLEANERS, etc.

2. Body double bagged with/without leakage would make a difference in the decomp signature. (exposure to oxygen) (anaerobic vs aerobic)

Don't beat on me, I'm the new guy sharing a theory. After months of lurking, I spilled.:chicken:

Welcome to the site.

Very well stated post. The Anaerobic vs Aerobic decomp makes a BIG difference.

IMHO...the first garbage bag ripped when she was either dragging it or attempting to put it in the trunk. She then went to the laundry bag which was much more durable.

I also believe that she was buried in the backyard for a day or so, then when she went to move her, the bag ripped. That is when she needed the shovel. The shovel was used to get just enough dirt to absorb some of the fluids that spilled on either the car trunk, the back yard, in the garage...etc...

Casey didn't use the shovel to dig and bury her, just as a means to hid the fluids which would have easily been seen by GA or CA. Thats why she only has it for an hour or so. Just used it, cleaned up and returned it.

 

[whiskeygurl]

IMO I think there was MORE than just a 'bad smell' on those pants that Cindy washed. Why didn't she wash the cloth doll. Was there other obvious evidence, such as dirt stains, blood, grass stains etc... and the knife, why does someone have a kitchen knife in their car???

I have tried to understand why Cindy washed them pants that were left in the car, and why she left all the other trash there. I read some where that they had disguarded the trash in a bag and dumped it at the site.

 

[Brini]

Didn't LE pass on taking things from the car at first? If so, why would CA not think it was okay for her to wash the pants? GA had also told CA that the smell was an old pizza. Let's remember that she was holding onto the slightest bit of hope that the smell was anything but what she and GA both initially thought it was.

As Hotdogs pointed out, I believe they would still be able to detect bodily fluids even after a washing with regular detergent. If this was a smoking gun - it should still be so.

CA knew what he smell was. She described it as, "Smeeling like a damn dead body." She is also a nurse.

IMHO, she knew that she had to wash those pants to destroy evidence.

 

[debs]

Didn't LE pass on taking things from the car at first? If so, why would CA not think it was okay for her to wash the pants? GA had also told CA that the smell was an old pizza. Let's remember that she was holding onto the slightest bit of hope that the smell was anything but what she and GA both initially thought it was.

As Hotdogs pointed out, I believe they would still be able to detect bodily fluids even after a washing with regular detergent. If this was a smoking gun - it should still be so.

All we have is what Cindy says was in the car and washed. This presumes that the pants that Cindy claims to have washed were the ones turned over to LE. I am not 100% certain they are the same pants. I am not even certain that was all she found when she took items out of the car. SOMETHING distracted her energy to clean the car. She left a pair of shoes and a pair of boots in there. What caused her to pause in the cleaning?

 

[Clock's Tickin]

I think that CA is slightly OCD anyway and that, upon finding the car and no KC (and figuring out that she'd been lying all along about her whereabouts) that she was in a mad frenzy cleaning out the car and probably swearing the whole time. I can envision her cursing about how her "stupid daughter could let a car get into this condition." I think that, had she not found Amy's resume (and a possible way to get to KC) the car would've been spotless and sanitized long before the A's knew they had a big problem. I know a lot of people think the A's had some idea, but once they heard KC's voice on the phone, I feel like they thought the problem was just more KC drama. It wasn't until she was found with no Caylee that panic actually ensued. The car had been home for hours before KC was picked up.

I also don't know about the chloroform theories. Since chloroform IS a natural byproduct of decomp...AND of cleaning agents...I really don't think we can rule out it's presence as a coincidental occurance due to the things we KNOW happened in the trunk. I just don't think KC used it to drug Caylee. I don't think she ever had any kind of medicinal chloroform. Even with the websearches.

As far as the knife, with decomp progressing to skeletal remains, there is no way to know if it was the murder weapon. I do keep a paring knife in my center console. It came to the car with me to put a hole in an orange. I baby wiped it off and kept it there--it comes in handy---so with KC, who knows why she had it.

As much as we like to paint CA as a mother hell bent on doing whatever is necessary to keep KC outta the chair. I think that, in the beginning--before the denial set in---in those first moments of panic, she could have been extremely helpful. Looking back, she probably knows that if things had happened differently, Caylee might have been found sooner. If the pants and knife had not been washed, the answers might have been there...