Catholic Church to open its doors to gay priests

[ScorpioGal]

Then what are they??

PEDOPHILES!

Homosexuals don't molest children. Homosexuals are sexually attracted to the same sex. A Homosexual is no more likely to be a pedophile then a hetrosexual person is.

Although, ignorance and fear are our worst enenies.

 

[ScorpioGal]

ScorpioGal, the Catholic Church does not consider a woman to be less than a man. Role differentiation is not inequality.

And that is YOUR opinion. I stand by mine. If an organization I belong to refuses to allow me to attain it's highest position, that is discrimination. It IS a consideration that woman kind is not capable, worthy or able to be priests, bishops, cardinals or popes.

But any person has an absolute right to be discriminated against, if they so choose. I would never interfere in anyone's right to choice.

The catholic cult (club) is no different then any other "good old boy club".. a fraternity, complete with it's initiations, ceremonies and I'll bet they even have their secret handshake, too or would that be the kneel, stand, sit, stand, kneel?

 

[dakini]

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_rom1.htm

These divisions, of course, are stereotypes. They are typical concepts that are shared by many, but not all, adults. But some will not fit neatly into a single viewpoint; they will combine the beliefs of more than one point of view.
A brief description of each viewpoint follows.

[font=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Abomination: This is the most conservative position. Homosexual behavior is to be condemned under all circumstances. Throughout the Bible, there are passages that denounces it as a crime against God, nature and society. Homosexuals are driven by lust and are incapable of entering into a loving non-exploitive relationship. This is the historical position of the Christian faith; clergy have taught this viewpoint for many centuries. It is only in recent decades that liberal and some mainline Christians have deviated from this belief [/font][font=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]system.[/font]

[font=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Change is expected: This viewpoint teaches that homosexuality is a product of a sinful world, and ultimately the result of the sin of the original parents in Eden. It emphasizes that gays and lesbians can be cured of their brokenness and be converted to heterosexuality through prayer and/or reparative therapy.[/font]

[font=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Celibacy is expected: This position recognizes that an adult sexual orientation is fixed in most cases. Very few homosexuals cannot change from "gay" to "ex-gay." For them, God expects a celibate lifestyle, without a loving partner to intimately share their life.[/font]

[font=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Marginally acceptable: This viewpoint, like the previous ones, finds the ultimate cause of homosexuality in the world's fallen condition. Homosexuality is a psychosexual disability which the victim must try to overcome. If they are unable to change, and also unable to accept a celibate life, then the least horrendous option open to them is to attempt to enter into a monogamous, long-term, same-sex relationship. This is not a particularly desirable situation, but it is at least better than the moral chaos so often found in a single life. [/font]

[font=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Equality: Equal status and equal rights are the goal. Homosexual behavior is seen as morally neutral, in the same way as is heterosexual behavior. Persons with a homosexual orientation are quite capable of entering into a loving, committed same-sex relationship that are the equal of opposite-sex relationships in all ways. The morality of their acts is to be judged in exactly the same way as are heterosexual relationships -- using criteria such as: the degree of commitment, the lack of coercion and manipulation, safety, permanence, and fidelity. Justice will only be achieved by equal rights for persons of all sexual orientations, including the right for same-sex couples to enter into marriage. [/font]

[font=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Liberation is the most liberal position. Homosexuality is seen to be equal to heterosexuality -- perhaps even superior. The six "clobber passages" in the Bible which have traditionally been used to condemn homosexuality are to be rejected as biased interpretations of passages which were written to serve a scientifically illiterate, patriarchal, and controlling culture. The function of human sexual expression is primarily to generate joy, love and emotional growth. In rare instances, the prime function is to create new life. The morality of sexual activity, both same-sex and opposite-sex, is to be evaluated in these terms. It is homophobia, not homosexuality, which is a profound evil which is to be actively fought. Homophobia leads to hating sexual minorities who, like all humans, are made in the image of God. Homosexuals and bisexuals have the special task of liberating the church so that it can embrace the erotic as a foundational part of everyone's life, and one pathway to spirituality.[/font]

http://www.religioustolerance.org/_themes/topo/topbul1d.gif[font=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]More information.[/font]

[font=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]
http://www.dignityusa.org/index.html.
[/font]

 

[Dark Knight]

The catholic cult (club) is no different then any other "good old boy club".. a fraternity, complete with it's initiations, ceremonies and I'll bet they even have their secret handshake, too or would that be the kneel, stand, sit, stand, kneel?

I find that horribly offensive.

 

[concernedperson]

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_rom1.htm

These divisions, of course, are stereotypes. They are typical concepts that are shared by many, but not all, adults. But some will not fit neatly into a single viewpoint; they will combine the beliefs of more than one point of view.
A brief description of each viewpoint follows.

[font=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Abomination: This is the most conservative position. Homosexual behavior is to be condemned under all circumstances. Throughout the Bible, there are passages that denounces it as a crime against God, nature and society. Homosexuals are driven by lust and are incapable of entering into a loving non-exploitive relationship. This is the historical position of the Christian faith; clergy have taught this viewpoint for many centuries. It is only in recent decades that liberal and some mainline Christians have deviated from this belief [/font][font=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]system.[/font]

[font=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Change is expected: This viewpoint teaches that homosexuality is a product of a sinful world, and ultimately the result of the sin of the original parents in Eden. It emphasizes that gays and lesbians can be cured of their brokenness and be converted to heterosexuality through prayer and/or reparative therapy.[/font]

[font=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Celibacy is expected: This position recognizes that an adult sexual orientation is fixed in most cases. Very few homosexuals cannot change from "gay" to "ex-gay." For them, God expects a celibate lifestyle, without a loving partner to intimately share their life.[/font]

[font=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Marginally acceptable: This viewpoint, like the previous ones, finds the ultimate cause of homosexuality in the world's fallen condition. Homosexuality is a psychosexual disability which the victim must try to overcome. If they are unable to change, and also unable to accept a celibate life, then the least horrendous option open to them is to attempt to enter into a monogamous, long-term, same-sex relationship. This is not a particularly desirable situation, but it is at least better than the moral chaos so often found in a single life. [/font]

[font=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Equality: Equal status and equal rights are the goal. Homosexual behavior is seen as morally neutral, in the same way as is heterosexual behavior. Persons with a homosexual orientation are quite capable of entering into a loving, committed same-sex relationship that are the equal of opposite-sex relationships in all ways. The morality of their acts is to be judged in exactly the same way as are heterosexual relationships -- using criteria such as: the degree of commitment, the lack of coercion and manipulation, safety, permanence, and fidelity. Justice will only be achieved by equal rights for persons of all sexual orientations, including the right for same-sex couples to enter into marriage. [/font]

[font=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Liberation is the most liberal position. Homosexuality is seen to be equal to heterosexuality -- perhaps even superior. The six "clobber passages" in the Bible which have traditionally been used to condemn homosexuality are to be rejected as biased interpretations of passages which were written to serve a scientifically illiterate, patriarchal, and controlling culture. The function of human sexual expression is primarily to generate joy, love and emotional growth. In rare instances, the prime function is to create new life. The morality of sexual activity, both same-sex and opposite-sex, is to be evaluated in these terms. It is homophobia, not homosexuality, which is a profound evil which is to be actively fought. Homophobia leads to hating sexual minorities who, like all humans, are made in the image of God. Homosexuals and bisexuals have the special task of liberating the church so that it can embrace the erotic as a foundational part of everyone's life, and one pathway to spirituality.[/font]

http://www.religioustolerance.org/_themes/topo/topbul1d.gif[font=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]More information.[/font]

[font=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]
http://www.dignityusa.org/index.html.
[/font]

It is unimaginable that there is no leeway. Either it is my way or the highway! I have said this before but many of my friends are gay. They are the most loving and helpful people and some do have children. Their kids are not without adult responsibility. When found out about misguided ways they were promptley sent to military school.There was no ifs, ands, or buts. The choices were to give their kids the best possible education and to not accept any unlawfulness....period. My friends homes are filled with love and friendship and welcomed by so many. So, if organized religion won't welcome them then that is their misfortune because they are missing out on true spirits with a lot to give. Compassion goes a much further way than rituals.

 

[angelmom]

WHAT IS A CULT? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult#Definitions_of_.22cult.22

I looked it up in Wikepedia-free on-line dictionary. The definition doesn't seem so bad. But in general, to use it and connect with a long established organized religion like Catholicism does come out sounding like a put down. Some people are very sensitive about their Churches and their views.

Its probably the reason the mods in the PP gave recommendations that religion not be discussed.

Of course, this is a current event and not the Political Pavillion.

BTW whenever I see the subject of homosexuality linked with pedophilia I find that offensive, for what its worth.

I think it sounds terrible. Read far enough down and here are some samplings:

"...the term cult has taken on a pejorative and sometimes offensive connotation. This largely originated with highly publicized cults which purportedly exploited their members psychologically and financially, or which allegedly utilized group-based persuasion and conversion techniques. These techniques may include "brainwashing", "thought reform", "love bombing", and "mind control", whose scientific validity, modern and historical use, and effectiveness (for religious conversion) are discussed within the linked articles."

"Cults are groups that often exploit members psychologically and/or financially, typically by making members comply with leadership's demands through certain types of psychological manipulation, popularly called mind control, and through the inculcation of deep-seated anxious dependency on the group and its leaders."

"Miller further argues that if the term does not enable the distiction between a pathological group and a legitimate one, then it has no value and it is in fact the religious equivalent of [“nigg--”], it conveys disdain and prejudice without having any valuable content."

"Some groups, particularly those labeled by others as cults, view the "cult" designation as insensitive and feel persecuted by their opponents. "

"For many scholars and professional commentators, the usage of the word "cult" applies to maleficent or abusive behavior..."


I don't think anyone would throw the word "cult" around without intending it to be insulting or offensive.

 

[TisHerself]

The catholic cult (club) is no different then any other "good old boy club".. a fraternity, complete with it's initiations, ceremonies and I'll bet they even have their secret handshake, too or would that be the kneel, stand, sit, stand, kneel?

Not only offensive, I find it rather silly, totally baseless and false. Anyone having that much anger at a religion they don't believe in, it is not a good thing.
Most Catholics are OK with the way The Church is, they don't want women Priests. So if practicing Catholics are OK with it, it would seem to make sense to me that the ones outside the Church should deep six their anger.

 

[TisHerself]

Sorry, Tis, I did misunderstand. Please ignore my snarky response. I should have known better from your other posts. :blushing:

No Problem:woohoo:

 

[TisHerself]

Why would they have to follow them? can they not expect them to be honest about their celibacy? Tell the truth about it?

Which is exactly my point, You are not expected to take the vow of celibacy untill you become a Priest. There has been no documents put out at this point that says anything about Homosexuals one way or the other. Nothing that says they have to be 3 yrs, 5 yrs, 10 yrs, 15 yrs, celibate before, during seminary, NOTHING. NADA, NONE, NOT A ONE.

There was a Bishops Synod that just ended in The Vatican the First one since Pope Benedict became Pope. NO ONE knows what happened there just yet, when the documents from that are released then we will all know.

Every single thing that is printed in the news about Homosexuals are banned, or they are to be celibate for 10 yrs or they are to be celibate for 3 yrs. It is always something different and comes from some other source who has heard from some leak. It comes from someone who is always undercover never wants to give his true identity for fear of something or other.

 

[IrishMist]

I am spiritual in everyway. My god spends time loving people and hopefully, me too. I need to know that there is something more importent and that my life is not insignificant. Religious organizations have never really been there for me nor do I believe that they are an in all for everyone. I can see people for who they are and I believe that these spirits define us as some kind of extra human experience. I know that I will be ridiculed for this but it is what I believe.

Are you saying that you don't confuse faith with religion?

 

[Dark Knight]

Are you saying that you don't confuse faith with religion?

They are entertwined for those spiritually mature enough to pull it off. They are not mutally exclusive.

 

[sandraladeda]

I don't think anyone would throw the word "cult" around without intending it to be insulting or offensive.

I agree. Or, they are very wounded, and are simply lashing out.

for this, I feel sorry for them, and pray for them.

 

[Dark Knight]

I agree. Or, they are very wounded, and are simply lashing out.

for this, I feel sorry for them, and pray for them.

Amen to that, Sandra!

 

[Dark Knight]

Not only offensive, I find it rather silly, totally baseless and false. Anyone having that much anger at a religion they don't believe in, it is not a good thing.
Most Catholics are OK with the way The Church is, they don't want women Priests. So if practicing Catholics are OK with it, it would seem to make sense to me that the ones outside the Church should deep six their anger.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

 

[sandraladeda]

If an organization I belong to refuses to allow me to attain it's highest position, that is discrimination. It IS a consideration that woman kind is not capable, worthy or able to be priests, bishops, cardinals or popes.

But any person has an absolute right to be discriminated against, if they so choose. I would never interfere in anyone's right to choice.

It's a constitutive element of the Sacrament of Holy Orders - any pope, council or bishop can't change it. The same is true about the use of water for Baptism and bread and wine for Holy Eucharist. The elements of every sacrament can't be changed, because Christ established it.

It has nothing to do with who's more worthy or suitable for Holy Orders in the same way that the ban on non-Catholics receiving Holy Communion has nothing to do with any moral or spiritual judgement on the persons involved. It has to do with Sacred Tradition, which is considered as divinely inspired as Sacred Scripture.

The Church can't change what constitutes valid matter for any of the seven sacraments.

Sacred Tradition, nearly 2,000 years old, has never had an instance of women priests.

Jesus didn't ordain any women or call any of them to be apostles - thus excluding his mother even!

(Source: Catholicism for Dummies, Rev. John Trigilio Jr., PhD, ThD and Rev. Kenneth Brighenti, PhD)

We are not being discriminated against. We are following a tradition. It may not be for you, but it is very huge in my life. Access to the priesthood for women is a non-issue, and in fact, I think it is a great big red herring for people who, for some reason, have other issues with the church or Catholics.

What is your real issue?

IMHO

 

[sandraladeda]

The catholic cult (club) is no different then any other "good old boy club".. a fraternity, complete with it's initiations, ceremonies and I'll bet they even have their secret handshake, too or would that be the kneel, stand, sit, stand, kneel?

Getting past the offensiveness of this comment, I have to guess that the source is someone who has felt intimidated or left out by our traditions. I have known others like you. I am sorry you have ever felt this way. I assure you, we do not sit, stand, kneel, to make you feel unsure of yourself when in attendance at our liturgies. Just think of it as "protocol" or "etiquette", if you will. Do you question theatre-goers who are silent during the production, remain in their seats, turn off their cell phones? Do you stand for your national anthem? These are things we do out of respect as well as tradition.

I am a member of a very vibrant, welcoming Catholic community. We have at least 60 ministries ("ministry" is another word for "service" or "volunteer opportunities") in our community. These range from AA to 4 different youth ministries, services for the homeless, the poor, new immigrant services including ESL, Pastoral care, counselling, and the list goes on.

While one does not have to belong to a faith community to share their time and talents, it certainly helps. Where else do you gather where you are called to serve others in any way you can? Is your yoga class sending volunteers to Biloxi to help hurricane victims? My church is. Is your office sending families out to welcome refugees, teach them necessary life skills such as grocery shopping, banking, hooking up their utilities, enrolling children in school, etc.? My church does this. Is your bridge club taking the time to go visit the sick or dying? Etc.

If you are right, and this is some sort of cult, then I for one, am quite delighted to be a member.

imho

 

[dakini]

It's a constitutive element of the Sacrament of Holy Orders - any pope, council or bishop can't change it. The same is true about the use of water for Baptism and bread and wine for Holy Eucharist. The elements of every sacrament can't be changed, because Christ established it.

It has nothing to do with who's more worthy or suitable for Holy Orders in the same way that the ban on non-Catholics receiving Holy Communion has nothing to do with any moral or spiritual judgement on the persons involved. It has to do with Sacred Tradition, which is considered as divinely inspired as Sacred Scripture.

The Church can't change what constitutes valid matter for any of the seven sacraments.

Sacred Tradition, nearly 2,000 years old, has never had an instance of women priests.

Jesus didn't ordain any women or call any of them to be apostles - thus excluding his mother even!

(Source: Catholicism for Dummies, Rev. John Trigilio Jr., PhD, ThD and Rev. Kenneth Brighenti, PhD)

We are not being discriminated against. We are following a tradition. It may not be for you, but it is very huge in my life. Access to the priesthood for women is a non-issue, and in fact, I think it is a great big red herring for people who, for some reason, have other issues with the church or Catholics.

What is your real issue?

IMHO

Your post is well written. Describes the Churches posititon quite well and the way you are able to be at peace with its tenets. It is important that a person of faith be able to fully embrace the path and resolve any doubts about its value and benefit as the right path for oneself.

You are right that Catholicism is not appropriate for everyone and that if someone is criticizing the Church they are describing "issues".

It is possible that for Scorpiogal the Churches position on women not ordaining is enough of an issue without delving deeper or implying that there is a "real" reason.

I am personally close to a number of Catholic women who wanted to be priests and are deeply sad that ordaining is not an option. They do not feel a calling to be nuns. They want to be priests.

I would like for them to feel happy and inspired by their faith, instead it makes them feel sad. They are stuck. For whatever reason, they are not being comforted or supported in their vocation by their congregation.

Consequently, they participate as much as the Church allows them to. They feel unsatisfied. They are otherwise very identified as Catholics, they do not want to change.

Tell me what you do as a Catholic do to help these folks so that when I am talking to them I may advise them of their resources.

This is not the only religion that women run up against barriers.

 

[dakini]

I've avoided this thread because I just knew someone would say something like this, but curiosity got the best of me. :doh:

I find this comment totally unnecessary and offensive as a Catholic, as well. But I see others have pointed out the lack of a link between homosexuals and pedophiles and even celibacy.

Thank you for this post DK

I feel the Catholic Church is no more likely to have molesting priests than any other religion. The Church erred by keeping it secret and for this they have paid and are continuing to pay.

This thread started out with a number of posts that I found offensive too. I may no longer practice as a Catholic but this is the faith of my family and it has great benefit. I value what I learned as a child growing up in this Church.

 

[sandraladeda]

Your post is well written. Describes the Churches posititon quite well and the way you are able to be at peace with its tenets. It is important that a person of faith be able to fully embrace the path and resolve any doubts about its value and benefit for oneself and others.

You are right that Catholicism is not appropriate for everyone and that if someone is criticizing the Church they are describing "issues".

It is possible that for Scorpiogal the Churches position on women not ordaining is enough of an issues without delving deeper or implying that there is a "real" reason.

I am personally close to a number of Catholic women who wanted to be priests and are deeply sad that ordaining is not an option. They do not feel a calling to be nuns. They want to be priests.

I would like for them to feel happy and inspired by their faith, instead it makes them feel sad. They are stuck. For whatever reason, they are not being comforted or supported in their vocation by their congregation.

Consequently, they participate as much as the Church allows them to. They feel unsatisfied. They are otherwise very identified as Catholics, they do not want to change.

Tell me what you do as a Catholic do to help these folks so that when I am talking to them I may advise them of their resources.

This is not the only religion that women run up against barriers.

Hi dakini. Thank you for your post, also well-written, like all your posts.

I honestly don't know what the Catholic church does for women who feel this way. I have never known any. I'll check with my sources! :innocent:

This would be my own response. If they feel strongly called to serve, then perhaps hitting up against this barrier is exactly what God wants for them - perhaps it is God's desire for them to serve but NOT in the Catholic church.

I was born and raised Catholic, I married a Catholic, and I am happy as a Catholic. However, I feel a universal kinship with all Christians. I could easily worship elsewhere if I did not feel fully satisfied in the Catholic church.

I would encourage your friends to pray for the discernment to know where they are called. Perhaps they would be greatly needed in a leadership role within another Christian denomination. Perhaps their talents are needed somewhere remote from the traditional Catholic worship expereince, where there is a particular desperate need for their own special talents.

When I came to great faith a few years back, I was so inspired by stories about Mother Theresa, and Jackie Pullinger (book : Chasing the Dragon, awesome). After becoming a Christian, JP asked God to call her to serve somewhere in the world. She jumped on a ship and ended up in the walled city of Kowloon, ministering to the addicts, gang members, and prostitutes. That would be an exciting ministry! I quickly realized we cannot all be Jackie Pullinger, and I could hardly run off on a spiritual mission as I have 3 children who need their mother right here. My call is to be Jesus, right here, on my block, in my neighborhood, in my world. The areas in which I serve today are, I believe, exactly where God wishes for me to serve, and I am very content with my role.

This is what I am hoping your friends may find. Satisfaction with their place in this world.

 

[dakini]

Hi dakini. Thank you for your post, also well-written, like all your posts.

I honestly don't know what the Catholic church does for women who feel this way. I have never known any. I'll check with my sources! :innocent:

This would be my own response. If they feel strongly called to serve, then perhaps hitting up against this barrier is exactly what God wants for them - perhaps it is God's desire for them to serve but NOT in the Catholic church.

I was born and raised Catholic, I married a Catholic, and I am happy as a Catholic. However, I feel a universal kinship with all Christians. I could easily worship elsewhere if I did not feel fully satisfied in the Catholic church.

I would encourage your friends to pray for the discernment to know where they are called. Perhaps they would be greatly needed in a leadership role within another Christian denomination. Perhaps their talents are needed somewhere remote from the traditional Catholic worship expereince, where there is a particular desperate need for their own special talents.

When I came to great faith a few years back, I was so inspired by stories about Mother Theresa, and Jackie Pullinger (book : Chasing the Dragon, awesome). After becoming a Christian, JP asked God to call her to serve somewhere in the world. She jumped on a ship and ended up in the walled city of Kowloon, ministering to the addicts, gang members, and prostitutes. That would be an exciting ministry! I quickly realized we cannot all be Jackie Pullinger, and I could hardly run off on a spiritual mission as I have 3 children who need their mother right here. My call is to be Jesus, right here, on my block, in my neighborhood, in my world. The areas in which I serve today are, I believe, exactly where God wishes for me to serve, and I am very content with my role.

This is what I am hoping your friends may find. Satisfaction with their place in this world.

Very lovely reply. Full of love and wisdom. Open, compassionate. You are certainly in the right place if your faith brings forth these qualities!

It makes me so happy when I hear about how someone's faith opens them up to others.

The Dalai Lama says it is important for people of different faiths to communicate with each other in order to develop mutual respect and appreciation.

This is very good advice. I will share with my friends when the topic comes up again and it feels appropriate.