Caylee's "Mama" Doll

[cecybeans]

...I know I'm really reachin'.

I CAN imagine Cindy removing a decomp-reeking 'mama' to protect Casey.
I CAN'T imagine Cindy being compelled to replace it w/ another doll unless it had been witnessed by Simon, or someone else, to be in the car, hence, a stand-in was needed.

I CAN'T imagine Casey making any effort to switch out the dolls...only to get rid of one that somehow needed to be trashed...and then there would be (a) no reason for it not to be tossed w/ the remains and (b) no reason to provide a stand-in. Only thing I can think of would be Casey seeing it in the car 7/15 @ home and knowing it was decomp-soaked, etc. AFTER G&C saw it...and before she was arrested 7/16 ~4PM. :shakehead: Naaaaah.

:banghead:

Perhaps CA was not sure who may have seen the doll or the knife and switched them just to be safe. We also don't know when this occurred. It may have happened after KC told them Caylee was kidnapped and when she was riding around with LE that night trying to "locate" Zanny. CA had no idea what LE was asking KC either, or if she was telling them about the doll.

At that point, having the doll in the car might have seemed to CA as if she was being "honest" - like the "half-truth" of giving the FBI a hairbrush that both Caylee and KC used.

I agree that KC would never have gone to the trouble, but CA was also in panic mode, and may not have been thinking as clearly as she should regarding what might be inculpatory evidence eventually. Perhaps her first instinct was to make sure nothing in the car was "dirty" or had telltale stains.

Given how cagey CA has been about all things Caylee, I don't think it is a horrible stretch to imagine. CA often misjudges how things are perceived as well.

 

[treeseeker]

The Dec. 20th warrant specified looking for doll clothing. That is the only warrant that mentions the doll.

O/T...in reading the warrant I see again mention of the toy horse "found at the scene". Yet, I have never seen a property sheet listing such a horse, or an evidence photo showing such a horse.

What gives? :waitasec:

For some reason, the bag of children's items found on Suburban in Oct came to mind re the toy horse. Purely speculation - what if that bag was actually picked up and processed before Caylee was found? What/how would this be handled, discovery-wise, if it existed? ETA: matching horses in the bag with other evidence?

Odd we've heard nothing about KW, given he claimed to have searched near where Caylee was found. He seems a candidate to testify that Caylee was placed in November.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81494&highlight=Keith+Williams

 

[treeseeker]

...I know I'm really reachin'.

I CAN imagine Cindy removing a decomp-reeking 'mama' to protect Casey.
I CAN'T imagine Cindy being compelled to replace it w/ another doll unless it had been witnessed by Simon, or someone else, to be in the car, hence, a stand-in was needed.

I CAN'T imagine Casey making any effort to switch out the dolls...only to get rid of one that somehow needed to be trashed...and then there would be (a) no reason for it not to be tossed w/ the remains and (b) no reason to provide a stand-in. Only thing I can think of would be Casey seeing it in the car 7/15 @ home and knowing it was decomp-soaked, etc. AFTER G&C saw it...and before she was arrested 7/16 ~4PM. :shakehead: Naaaaah.

:banghead:

Perhaps she had already decided to call LE before she went back to work, and just did a few quick things on the fly, mindful there may have been a tow-lot inventory. BTW, I admit I understand the OCD-type nervous cleaning if that's all she did.

Does anyone remember when G&C searched their back yard? IMO this is the strangest thing they've done, and bothers me most.

 

[Just Jayla]

Perhaps she had already decided to call LE before she went back to work, and just did a few quick things on the fly, mindful there may have been a tow-lot inventory. BTW, I admit I understand the OCD-type nervous cleaning if that's all she did.

Does anyone remember when G&C searched their back yard? IMO this is the strangest thing they've done, and bothers me most.

Yes, they even tossed around a story about the ladder being attached to the pool and their gate being opened at one point, too...

 

[cloud9]

2-3(?) car seats

Yes! Thanks! Also, my added items in this post.



Originally Posted by cloud9 [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4497634#post4497634"]

[/ame]
2-3 Mama Dolls
2 knives
2 cell phones (incl. missing BlackJack)

Hmmm...

ETA~ 2-3(?)(blankets)
2 Cross necklaces from JC Pennys?

 

[sumbunny]

Yes! Thanks! Also, my added items in this post.



Originally Posted by cloud9
2-3 Mama Dolls
2 knives
2 cell phones (incl. missing BlackJack)

Hmmm...

ETA~ 2-3(?)(blankets)
2 Cross necklaces from JC Pennys?

Not to mention zanny had duplicates of everything as well

 

[BondJamesBond]

Cindy maintaining that she'd wiped off the doll's face is certainly tempting to take as as an indication she felt the need to admit some level of manipulation. I wanna believe Cindy did no more than she said she did. I don't think her admitted actions are necessarily nefarious. She just doesn't garner a lot of credibility through her other actions/words.

I don't recall Cindy getting close to the car until they got to Hopespring. I do recall George admiting he held out false hope (my words) before they left the car at home that the smell WAS just from the pizza.

If Cindy selectively took items out using potential source of smell as her criteria...it seems to make sense to toss the pants in the washer since it was right there in the garage. And I can imagine running on auto-pilot and instinctively wanting a doll out away from the smell and wiped off.

Appreciate all the nice work done on this thread.

I guess I can add to my wish list that we'll eventually see a full inventory of all the dolls.

 

[Harmony 2]

I find the following odd:

1) I have never seen a photo of Caylee carrying an unclothed doll yet the doll in Pontiac was unclothed. Cindy says in her depo that she always dressed the dolls but Caylee preferred no clothes on her dolls. It appeared to be a cover story to me. In this photo the doll is wearing a long sleeved pajama type outfit.

2) That pink outfit is not shown among the doll clothes confiscated from the Anthony home. (Row 20) It appears to be missing. Did I miss it in the photos of evidence?

http://media.myfoxorlando.com/photogalleries/021809remainsfoundOCSOpictures_set10/indexGallery.htm

3) ITA with TreeSeeker about being perplexed by George and Cindy searching the playhouse. I always wondered if they had seen or smelled something suspicious on a prior occasion and in recalling it went directly there to look. Then, coincidentally, the cadaver dogs hit on that location.

IMO Something just does not feel right about those circumstances enumerated.

 

[Just Jayla]

Cindy maintaining that she'd wiped off the doll's face is certainly tempting to take as as an indication she felt the need to admit some level of manipulation. I wanna believe Cindy did no more than she said she did. I don't think her admitted actions are necessarily nefarious. She just doesn't garner a lot of credibility through her other actions/words.
I don't recall Cindy getting close to the car until they got to Hopespring. I do recall George admiting he held out false hope (my words) before they left the car at home that the smell WAS just from the pizza.

If Cindy selectively took items out using potential source of smell as her criteria...it seems to make sense to toss the pants in the washer since it was right there in the garage. And I can imagine running on auto-pilot and instinctively wanting a doll out away from the smell and wiped off.

Appreciate all the nice work done on this thread.

I guess I can add to my wish list that we'll eventually see a full inventory of all the dolls.

I still have trouble going from A-Z with CA being in the equation, too-But I guess CA's attitude can be explored further, if nothing more than to rule her out.
For instance, why did she beat the hell out of the cross in her backyard in such a fashion, as JH describes?
Chasing the mom & daughter from the remains/memorial site was aggressive, too.
The depo with John Morgan was way out of control, particularly the scene in his office after the depo.
The My Caylee Is Missing Myspace message was very ballsy, very spur of the moment emotional.
Parts of these things could be due to stress and menopause. CA's co-workers have no issues with her as far as we know. But I should also point out that AD and another friend (was it ID, or MichelleM?) noticed CA's overbearing behavior at Caylee's birthday party. The video tape of KC, CA and Caylee in the kitchen, when they are smashing ice cream on each other, is a little tense.
Then there is her behavior towards KC in front of JG, that prompted JG to step in and defend KC.
It is entirely possible that CA has a nasty temper, nastier than we have seen in public, but would a nasty temper prompt her to cover up a crime? Only if she despises LE that much, and again, there is proof that she has no love lost for the LE profession. She dislikes LE so much that GA hid the fact that he had applied with Orlando PD (or was it OCSO?) from her.

 

[The World According]

I still have trouble going from A-Z with CA being in the equation, too-But I guess CA's attitude can be explored further, if nothing more than to rule her out.
For instance, why did she beat the hell out of the cross in her backyard in such a fashion, as JH describes?
Chasing the mom & daughter from the remains/memorial site was aggressive, too.
The depo with John Morgan was way out of control, particularly the scene in his office after the depo.
The My Caylee Is Missing Myspace message was very ballsy, very spur of the moment emotional.
Parts of these things could be due to stress and menopause. CA's co-workers have no issues with her as far as we know. But I should also point out that AD and another friend (was it ID, or MichelleM?) noticed CA's overbearing behavior at Caylee's birthday party. The video tape of KC, CA and Caylee in the kitchen, when they are smashing ice cream on each other, is a little tense.
Then there is her behavior towards KC in front of JG, that prompted JG to step in and defend KC.
It is entirely possible that CA has a nasty temper, nastier than we have seen in public, but would a nasty temper prompt her to cover up a crime? Only if she despises LE that much, and again, there is proof that she has no love lost for the LE profession. She dislikes LE so much that GA hid the fact that he had applied with Orlando PD (or was it OCSO?) from her.

Oh Jayla, that is hysterical. Where did you learn that one? You just can't make this stuff up. I think the way they explained that Caylee and THAT DOLL were inseparable made them know when they saw the doll and no Caylee that indeed the smell was what they feared, and even if only on a subconscious level...they went in to save Casey mode. More important to Cindy was making sure to keep up appearances that HER daughter couldn't have done this. That for her is the beginning and the end, how it reflects on her. She hates Casey in my opinion. If you don't believe me, re watch her FBI interview. When they saw the doll.......they KNEW!

 

[cecybeans]

Did someone read DFanning's book and notice what AP, CA's dad did before he retired? I can't remember where I got the impression he was a LEO. If so, that could explain a lot.

 

[Just Jayla]

Oh Jayla, that is hysterical. Where did you learn that one? You just can't make this stuff up. I think the way they explained that Caylee and THAT DOLL were inseparable made them know when they saw the doll and no Caylee that indeed the smell was what they feared, and even if only on a subconscious level...they went in to save Casey mode. More important to Cindy was making sure to keep up appearances that HER daughter couldn't have done this. That for her is the beginning and the end, how it reflects on her. She hates Casey in my opinion. If you don't believe me, re watch her FBI interview. When they saw the doll.......they KNEW!

In GA's state depo, he told LDB that he applied either when they first moved to Orlando or maybe more recently, as he was going through his entire work history with the attorneys.

In CA's depo, when they asked CA if GA had ever applied for an LE job once he quit in Ohio, she said something akin to "over my dead body!"

It was a great moment of oopsy, and I was tickled to know that GA had tried it but had to hide it from her-They are a mess!

ETA-And yeppers, THEY KNEW!

 

[Eidetic]

Yes! Thanks! Also, my added items in this post.



Originally Posted by cloud9
2-3 Mama Dolls
2 knives
2 cell phones (incl. missing BlackJack)

Hmmm...

ETA~ 2-3(?)(blankets)
2 Cross necklaces from JC Pennys?

Don't you remember, Zanny had duplicates of everything! lol :doh:

 

[Truthwillsetufree]

Cindy maintaining that she'd wiped off the doll's face is certainly tempting to take as as an indication she felt the need to admit some level of manipulation. I wanna believe Cindy did no more than she said she did. I don't think her admitted actions are necessarily nefarious. She just doesn't garner a lot of credibility through her other actions/words.

I don't recall Cindy getting close to the car until they got to Hopespring. I do recall George admiting he held out false hope (my words) before they left the car at home that the smell WAS just from the pizza.

If Cindy selectively took items out using potential source of smell as her criteria...it seems to make sense to toss the pants in the washer since it was right there in the garage. And I can imagine running on auto-pilot and instinctively wanting a doll out away from the smell and wiped off.

Appreciate all the nice work done on this thread.

I guess I can add to my wish list that we'll eventually see a full inventory of all the dolls.

Bolded parts by me.
CA wiping the dolls face, is only the begining and that is JMO. You say "it seems to make sense to toss the pants in the washer since it was right there in the garage".
Well, you have to ask yourself, why was KC's car in the garage in the first place? #1. It smelled to high heaven...like a dead body had been in it. GA and CA who always parked their cars in the garage...months and months of watching the web cam. LA did not park in the garage, so why did they decide to park a stinking car in a closed up garage, when common sense says park it in the driveway, roll down the windows and let it air out. Go through the car while it is airing out in the driveway...sure the neighbors might see you but who cares you are just cleaning up a car....unless someone had something to hide. A lot of switching could have happened in the time the car was in CA and GA's hands. Car seats, pants, clothing, and mama doll. JMO of course.

 

[Truthwillsetufree]

Don't you remember, Zanny had duplicates of everything! lol :doh:

Yes, Zanny even bought a whole new wardrobe for Caylee for their trip. Money apparantly was no object for this Nanny, so it is suprising this Nanny did not have a land line phone number, or a permanent residence. I find this peculiar....like the Nanny just doesn't exist, ya know what they say about too good to be true.

 

[texaslb218]

p. 171 quoting Cindy


After noting that Casey made sure Cindy wasn't home when Casey came back rummaging through the house--

"She'd go and take the stuff she needed, and stole money every time. But she never took anything for Caylee. No shoes, no pajamas, no dolls, no anything."

I know everyone already knows this, but it is chilling to see the quote and have it be quite clear that the baby is dead. Such an eye-opener when this quote stands alone and not buried in Cindy's depo.

 

[cloud9]

Don't you remember, Zanny had duplicates of everything! lol :doh:

Thank you!!! Where is my brain? Well, that clears it up. KC could be innocent. (just kidding) LOL

 

[Snaz]

p. 171 quoting Cindy


After noting that Casey made sure Cindy wasn't home when Casey came back rummaging through the house--

"She'd go and take the stuff she needed, and stole money every time. But she never took anything for Caylee. No shoes, no pajamas, no dolls, no anything."

I know everyone already knows this, but it is chilling to see the quote and have it be quite clear that the baby is dead. Such an eye-opener when this quote stands alone and not buried in Cindy's depo.

BBM

Do you happen to know where D. Fanning got this quote from? Was it the State's deposition? I was not able to find that particular phrase in the depo using 'stole' as the key search word.

TIA!

 

[texaslb218]

I'm sorry I don't know where D. Fanning got the quote. I assumed it was from the depo's or LE interviews. I almost didn't post this because I was unsure about her source.

 

[BeanE]

I googled the quote because it wasn't familiar to me, and I thought I'd remember Cindy saying that KC stole every time she came home.

This quote from Nancy Grace popped right up because of all the similar words:

she took her own things, everything for her, but nothing -- no shoes, no PJs, no clothing, no toys, no dolls -- nothing taken to provide for little Caylee

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0809/23/ng.01.html

Also this from Brittany Schieber's interview:

BS: Cindy told me that Casey would call occasionally to meet up with her, or have a reason for her mother to leave the house, and that gave Casey just enough time to get in the house, take stuff that she needed, but never took any of Caylee's stuff. And Caylee's stuff was never moved. No shoes, no pajamas, no clothes, no dolls, no anything

http://www.wftv.com/download/2008/0925/17555345.pdf