Cell phones. Privacy vs justice for Caylee

[Reagan]

Since the defense is going on a fishing expedition, I wouldn't want to hand over ALL my records freely. Had they set a reasonable and relevant time frame, I wouldn't have any problem, but they haven't done that.

If the FBI needed my records for some sort of reason, I wouldn't hesitate for a second to hand them over. But I would fight tooth and nail to prevent some scum bag defense attorney from getting my phone records because of some baby killing (insert bad words here)

 

[Susanlee]

well I would not hand anything over in FL. The Sunshine laws reveal private information about innocent people that want to remain anonymous. The point of the laws were to keep govt transparent, not to release carelessly redacted, personal documents all over the internet.
Unless I had key information that was absoultely critical to the case, i would not hand over anything if i didn't have to.
I am still blown away by the amount of information that has been revealed by these laws and subsequent abuse by the media.

JMHO of course.

Jbean,

Your post hit a nerve with me. Well, not your post, but a reminder of our sometimes crazy laws here in FL. Want to compliment/complain about an officer; ask a question about your house taxes; inquire about ANYTHING, even if personal in nature...that is government related and you will always get this message:

"Under Florida law, e-mail addresses are public records. If you do not want your e-mail address released to a public records request, do not send electronic mail to this entity. Instead, contact this office by phone or writing".:banghead: Basically, if you live in Florida, you have no privacy! Hmm, maybe I should move back up North with my parents, lol!

 

[Susanlee]

Wow, 2 posts in one day. Must be my new coffee, as I am generally a lurker. Since the Sunshine Law has been in discussion, thought I would tell a story and how it changed my way of thinking about people. Former Private Investigator and I love research. Moved to FL from D.C. area in 1999. Because I was trained in investigation, and Florida is oh so easy to look things up, I did a quick scan of my neighbors. At the time I had 2 teenagers, and my husband was an invalid due to brain cancer. Much to my dismay, we had a man convicted of 5 counts of manslaughter, waiting to be sentenced, 9 doors away from me. 9 doors away on an ankle bracelet. This is a nice, middle class, family oriented neighborhood. There was no way around it. I had a murderer down the street. Convicted no less! Just waiting for, what would be, a 15 year prison sentence. You can bet I found out eveything about him in an hour:

18 years old. Honor student. President of the football team. Cramed about 8 teenage kids into his Honda Civic because they did not have a ride home from the bowling ally. Most not wearing seatbelts. He went to fast around a sharp curve. Most were ejected. 5 died. No drugs, no alcohol in him. All in all a great kid who drove too fast around a curve. Now when I look people up, I don't judge too quickly until I have all the facts.
I guess the point to my story is I have mixed emotions re the Sunshine law. Because of it I knew there was not a "murderer" down the street. Just a young man who had a temp. lapse in judgement. On a different note, anyone can look up my mortage, and print off all 22 pages from the confort of thier own home. The Sunshine laws are way to open. Then again, good for us with the Caylee case. Like most of you, I so look forward to the next document dump!

 

[butwhatif?]

I dont blame them from objecting to what the defense requested. The inquiry isnt
about bringing justice for Caylee. The defense needs someone credible to blame other than the prisioner.

But the problem is that JB is requesting them only because they were not collected by the state.
If they know or suspect that JB is going to try to pin it on one of these players, they should have been thorough and gotten all cell records months ago.
I can imagine JB saying " look, the only complete cell records that were ever investigated were KC's, showing the narrow scope of the investigation. This is a witch hunt".

The other thing is, that what JB uses at trial can also be used by the state. But if they are loooking at the records for the first time when they are presented at trial, then how will the state be prepared to refute any claims made by him?

ETA Also Jb made a decent point at the hearing. That if JG was subjected to a lie dectecter test, he was being eliminated as a suspect by LE. The defence has a right to determine that for themselves. Judge SS agreed that he can see the relevance just by looking at his name.

 

[cecybeans]

But the problem is that JB is requesting them only because they were not collected by the state.
If they know or suspect that JB is going to try to pin it on one of these players, they should have been thorough and gotten all cell records months ago.
I can imagine JB saying " look, the only complete cell records that were ever investigated were KC's, showing the narrow scope of the investigation. This is a witch hunt".

The other thing is, that what JB uses at trial can also be used by the state. But if they are loooking at the records for the first time when they are presented at trial, then how will the state be prepared to refute any claims made by him?

ETA Also Jb made a decent point at the hearing. That if JG was subjected to a lie dectecter test, he was being eliminated as a suspect by LE. The defence has a right to determine that for themselves. Judge SS agreed that he can see the relevance just by looking at his name.

I think at this point in time it looks far more like a witch hunt by the defense to gather any and all personal records of people who are basically innocent bystanders only vaguely connected to this individual (much less the case) and when there is almost no probable cause for wanting such information. I've seen third world countries that realize you need more evidence to try and implicate innocent bystanders (particularly when there is only one party that even remotely looks guilty).

From the beginning, their client tried to implicate an innocent person, ZFG, and when that did not hold water, tried to insinuate that various other people might be to blame, when there was not a speck or hint of evidence that they were involved or had any reason to be in such a crime. The fact that these fabrications and lies were eagerly repeated and corroborated by her family (who were simply hopefully hypothesizing it might not be the obvious), makes it even more egregious.

Simply deconstructing circumstantial evidence, and trying to disconnect it from the rest of the overwhelming evidence that, as a whole, points to no other person at this point in time, seems pathetic and fruitless. If there had been a reasonable SODDI defense, it should have been there from the beginning and not have had to morph into the Suspect du Jour scenario it has boiled down to. There is simply no evidence that anyone other than KC or her immediate family had much access to Caylee and trying to kill a lipsticked pig with a shotgun loaded with SODDI buckshot is an invasion of privacy that the collateral victims in this case have already suffered from enough.

Anyone and everyone that has had anything to do with KC and her family has either been vilified by them or been subject to their innuendo of culpability, regardless of how far-fetched, desperate and mendaciously they have done it. I feel sorry for them all, but most of all for those who were already victims of KC's crimes of thievery and betrayal before this occurred. Their lives have been forever changed and they have paid an emotional and financial cost for knowing her - ALL OF WHICH would have easily been avoided if she and her parents had simply told the truth instead of asking innocent people to take the fall for something their irresponsible, lying, thieving adult daughter did. These people put the "hell" in Helicopter Parent.

 

[seagull65]

I started a thread a long while back about the Sunshine Laws. I think I am going to bump it up. I think that the defense is looking for calls that they could use to frame, blame, or otherwise divert attention from his client to another person for the purpose of reasonable doubt. That IMO is not a good enough reason to subpeona them. The motive behind his mining expedition is obvious. We have seen toooooooooooooooooooo many people of little importance to this case sleuthed, and in many cases accused of involvement where there was none. I for one wouldn't turn over my records willingly. Am I hiding anything???? No, but anyone can "misconshtrue" anything. I firmly believe that the sunshine laws will be revamped after this case is over.

But these were people who were with and around Caylee a lot prior to her disappearance, in some cases people that Casey and Caylee had actually lived with. Their phone records, texts, computer records, and lots of other information about them is highly relevant to Caylee's case.
I agree that the motive behind the subpoenas is obvious--- to find evidence that is crucial to this case and which has not become available through discovery, probably because investigation wasn't pursued very far into people other than Casey herself. I don't see any reason to assume that anyone who had been around Caylee or had any connection to her or access to her, or who had any involvement with Casey or with her boyfriend for that matter, is unimportant to the case. Or even anyone who wasn't directly involved with them but who was on the periphery. MOO

 

[seagull65]

I dont blame them from objecting to what the defense requested. The inquiry isnt
about bringing justice for Caylee. The defense needs someone credible to blame other than the prisioner.

Of course the defense is hoping to find evidence that will show the perpetrator is someone other than Casey. But they obviously won't be able to blame an innocent person of anything. Either evidence will be found or not.

I assume that the people who are trying to block the subpoenae of their records and communications etc are innocent but just don't want any embarrassing tidbits released because they've seen what's been done to Casey and her family in the media, the complete exploitation of every tiny thing that has nothing to do with anything. The complete character assassination aired nightly for a year. I don't blame them. It would be very hard to turn over your private communications etc, I agree. You might have to apologize to a few people you'd spoken badly about. You might be embarrassed by some pictures, etc. You might even be afraid of being charged with some smaller crime such as buying or selling drugs or whatever. But obviously in a case this serious, these considerations take second place to what's more important. It's a murder case.

 

[Pondering Mind]

But these were people who were with and around Caylee a lot prior to her disappearance, in some cases people that Casey and Caylee had actually lived with. Their phone records, texts, computer records, and lots of other information about them is highly relevant to Caylee's case.
I agree that the motive behind the subpoenas is obvious--- to find evidence that is crucial to this case and which has not become available through discovery, probably because investigation wasn't pursued very far into people other than Casey herself. I don't see any reason to assume that anyone who had been around Caylee or had any connection to her or access to her, or who had any involvement with Casey or with her boyfriend for that matter, is unimportant to the case. Or even anyone who wasn't directly involved with them but who was on the periphery. MOO

BBM~
O/T a tad, but I have NEVER heard that Casey AND Caylee EVER lived with anyone besides the A's. The 2 of them spent the night with RM, but never lived with anyone that I am aware of. Can you tell me where you found that info please? tia

 

[MissJames]

I havent seen alot of discussion about the players who are refusing to hand over cell records. Mods feel free to merge if there is already a thread relating to this topic.

My intent is not to throw anyone under the bus, but to discuss the idea of the right to privacy vs justice for Caylee.

Firstly nobody would want to have their cell records released for the world to see the most personal details of your life. But these are not ordinary circumstances.
IMO, providing cell records will serve two purposes. 1: tracking Kc's movements, and any contact she had with them in order to bolster the case against her. 2. proving that you have nothing to hide regardless of its its involvment or knowledge of the crime, or even making money off of Caylees death.

Some of these are people who claim to have loved Caylee, so why would they value their privacy more than helping to get justice for her?

What are the motives for holding them back?

In RM's case it seems $$$$$$ was the motivater for deleting emails from his PC. And in one of his interviews they say something along the lines of "Now ,you gave us permission to download your cell phone data, but that didnt work out too well, did it?" So its possible he also deleted everything on his cell. But why?

JG's cell records that have been released only show calls and no text content.
His dad repeatedly mentioned in his interview with LE the financial strain he was under because of the case.

So the motivater for refusing to hand them over could be that they, and all the others who are not willing to hand them over, dont want the public to know that they have gained financially by selling pics or their stories to media.
If thats the case, do you think that the public has a right to know who made money from caylees death, and who could have leaked info before the docs were released?
If they sold their story, then just 'fess up!! At least it will prove that they are completely forthcoming and holding nothing back.

Also, if they are keen to hide these details, does it make you wonder what else they could be hiding?

What is the A's PI hiding? Why not jump at the oportunity to prove to the world you are not lying about anything?
And RK, the hero.....why not live up to that title?

If I were a player in the case, and my records were requested, even if they were humiliating for me, I would hand them over because justice for a murdered child outweighs my possible embarrasment.
Who cares about raunchy texts, or people reading your text arguments? Isnt justice for caylee more important?
The 'I dont want all my friends and relatives brought into this' excuse doesnt fly, since we all know the numbers are redacted.And even if they werent, again, isnt justice for caylee more important?
Am really interested to hear other peoples perspective on this.

IMO the defense has made no secret that they are looking for info so they can throw someone under the bus.At the very least they are looking for anything to make witnesses appear less credible.So I would definitely have a problem turning my private records over to the defense in this case.I don't blame them one bit.Justice for Caylee is important,which is why I wouldn't give the defense anything to use as a distraction.I saw LKB in action during the PS case and smoke n mirrors was her game.
It's possible that there is good reason to not allow the info to go public.In my case I have adopted 4 children through foster care.Parental rights were terminated and should some of my private info concerning them come out it could create real problems.Scary problems.
We don't know everything about the people that JB wants records on,so to assume the info would simply be embarrassing is short-sighted.In the end a judge will determine if JB's fishing expedition outweighs privacy of individuals.
One last thing,it's up to the media to redact the info when it comes out.Would you trust them with that?

 

[MissJames]

I get that people have a legal right to privacy, but I'm talking more about moral duty here.
See, I wouldnt care if they asked me to hand over every cell record over the last 10 years. Would I be ahamed of some of those texts from so long ago?

Absolutely! It would paint me as a lying , cheating,skanky drugtaking loser, which is not who I am today, but it was me 10 years ago. And I'd still hand them over without question if it meant helping to get justice for a murdered child. Geez, even if it was for something way less serious, I'd do it.
Would I be concerned that the def would try to use those things against me? Yep. But since I know I have nothing to hide, I'd do it anyway, knowing I had truth on my side.

If they are worried that handing over records could help the defense, then so be it! They arent helping the state either. We are after the truth here, and how can we get to the truth when KC has lied about so much, and key players are holding back?
We've seen the significance of cell records that have been released so far. They hold alot of clues that can piece the puzzle together, since kc refuses to tell the truth.
jmo

For the sake of argument,how would exposing your embarrassing phone calls,or anyone's FTM ,help find the truth? There is no evidence that anyone else was involved.Why smear people,cause THEM to suffer,possibly lose their jobs, because of KC ?
KC is the ONLY one who knows exactly what happened.
Using your own words as an example of what JB intends,he would completely discredit you,because of your PAST as a viable witness for either side.How would that get justice for Caylee if you were a witness in this case?

 

[Phumi]

Of course the defense is hoping to find evidence that will show the perpetrator is someone other than Casey. But they obviously won't be able to blame an innocent person of anything. Either evidence will be found or not.

I assume that the people who are trying to block the subpoenae of their records and communications etc are innocent but just don't want any embarrassing tidbits released because they've seen what's been done to Casey and her family in the media, the complete exploitation of every tiny thing that has nothing to do with anything. The complete character assassination aired nightly for a year. I don't blame them. It would be very hard to turn over your private communications etc, I agree. You might have to apologize to a few people you'd spoken badly about. You might be embarrassed by some pictures, etc. You might even be afraid of being charged with some smaller crime such as buying or selling drugs or whatever. But obviously in a case this serious, these considerations take second place to what's more important. It's a murder case.

My Bold...

How very true. I would gladly turn over my records just as soon as the entire Anthony family take polygraph tests.

 

[Pondering Mind]

[/B]




My Bold...

How very true. I would gladly turn over my records just as soon as the entire Anthony family take polygraph tests.

Good Point Phumi!

 

[Phumi]

But these were people who were with and around Caylee a lot prior to her disappearance, in some cases people that Casey and Caylee had actually lived with. Their phone records, texts, computer records, and lots of other information about them is highly relevant to Caylee's case.
I agree that the motive behind the subpoenas is obvious--- to find evidence that is crucial to this case and which has not become available through discovery, probably because investigation wasn't pursued very far into people other than Casey herself. I don't see any reason to assume that anyone who had been around Caylee or had any connection to her or access to her, or who had any involvement with Casey or with her boyfriend for that matter, is unimportant to the case. Or even anyone who wasn't directly involved with them but who was on the periphery. MOO

If we are to believe that KC is being threatened by powerful underworld figures who kidnapped and murdered her child, forced her to follow a script, lie to police and neglect to report Caylee missing, might we not also conclude that the people in her circle are being threatened and therefore are AFRAID to turn over their records?

 

[songline]

I havent seen alot of discussion about the players who are refusing to hand over cell records. Mods feel free to merge if there is already a thread relating to this topic.

My intent is not to throw anyone under the bus, but to discuss the idea of the right to privacy vs justice for Caylee.

Firstly nobody would want to have their cell records released for the world to see the most personal details of your life. But these are not ordinary circumstances.
IMO, providing cell records will serve two purposes. 1: tracking Kc's movements, and any contact she had with them in order to bolster the case against her. 2. proving that you have nothing to hide regardless of its its involvment or knowledge of the crime, or even making money off of Caylees death.

Some of these are people who claim to have loved Caylee, so why would they value their privacy more than helping to get justice for her?

What are the motives for holding them back?

In RM's case it seems $$$$$$ was the motivater for deleting emails from his PC. And in one of his interviews they say something along the lines of "Now ,you gave us permission to download your cell phone data, but that didnt work out too well, did it?" So its possible he also deleted everything on his cell. But why?

JG's cell records that have been released only show calls and no text content.
His dad repeatedly mentioned in his interview with LE the financial strain he was under because of the case.

So the motivater for refusing to hand them over could be that they, and all the others who are not willing to hand them over, dont want the public to know that they have gained financially by selling pics or their stories to media.
If thats the case, do you think that the public has a right to know who made money from caylees death, and who could have leaked info before the docs were released?
If they sold their story, then just 'fess up!! At least it will prove that they are completely forthcoming and holding nothing back.

Also, if they are keen to hide these details, does it make you wonder what else they could be hiding?

What is the A's PI hiding? Why not jump at the oportunity to prove to the world you are not lying about anything?
And RK, the hero.....why not live up to that title? If I were a player in the case, and my records were requested, even if they were humiliating for me, I would hand them over because justice for a murdered child outweighs my possible embarrasment.
Who cares about raunchy texts, or people reading your text arguments? Isnt justice for caylee more important?
The 'I dont want all my friends and relatives brought into this' excuse doesnt fly, since we all know the numbers are redacted.And even if they werent, again, isnt justice for caylee more important?
Am really interested to hear other peoples perspective on this.

Thanks for this thread butwhatif, I have asked about a thread regarding this matter,
but got no reply. SO sincerely THANK You.
I have been wondering about what CD is hiding for a very long time.
IMHO there is much to learn from his cell phone records. It may even Help LE to solve this case.

I wonder If they actually need his phone? why LE can't just get a court order to get them directly from the phone company? But I would bet on that phone is a lot of information.

 

[songline]

I believe in privacy, but with the murder of a baby..........everything counts including cell phone records for trial! Florida sunshine laws should not give out info on innocent people, though public record???

:clap::clap::clap:GREAT POST.
ITA - I just wonder if they can negotiate for the sake of innocent peoples privacy. For example.
Anything prior to Caylee going missing or anyone that is not related to the case be kept totally private. Just curious.

 

[songline]

The defense DID request CA's & GA's cell phone records.

They did not object.
The judge ordered the records to be released to the defense.

WELL I am still not impressed that they gave their cell no, no...
IMO George would know that they would ask for the phone records.
He could have easily had one of those prepay throw aways.
Just like KC had a phone that went missing, that too could have been one of those prepay throw aways.
same kind of phone terrorists use, drug traffickers use.

 

[Spangle]

I get that people have a legal right to privacy, but I'm talking more about moral duty here.
See, I wouldnt care if they asked me to hand over every cell record over the last 10 years. Would I be ahamed of some of those texts from so long ago?

Absolutely! It would paint me as a lying , cheating,skanky drugtaking loser, which is not who I am today, but it was me 10 years ago. And I'd still hand them over without question if it meant helping to get justice for a murdered child. Geez, even if it was for something way less serious, I'd do it.
Would I be concerned that the def would try to use those things against me? Yep. But since I know I have nothing to hide, I'd do it anyway, knowing I had truth on my side.

If they are worried that handing over records could help the defense, then so be it! They arent helping the state either. We are after the truth here, and how can we get to the truth when KC has lied about so much, and key players are holding back?
We've seen the significance of cell records that have been released so far. They hold alot of clues that can piece the puzzle together, since kc refuses to tell the truth.
jmo

Perfect example of why innocents get in trouble and the guilty walk free.

The guilty know to get a lawyer to watch out for their interests. The innocent get blindsided. They think they are innocent and have nothing to hide. You would be suprised how 'normal' things can be used to build a case. Or used to make a person look bad enough to ruin their life.

You say everyone should be so willing. And your cool if everyone learns your past. What about the innocent person setting next to you. Their life is about the here and now.. But if folks learned about their past ten years ago, they might not trust them. Their life that they worked so hard to change for the better, might be ruined.

For what? Because if their innocent of the crime in quesiton, they should make everything about themselves public to prove they are innocent? When they are not even a suspect in the crime in question?

This idea that if they are innocent, they surely would want to show it.. and NOT to call a laawyer to protect them.. cause calling a lawyer proves your guilty of something... That is evoking social pressure to leave the innocent open to danger. The suavy experienced persons know not to fall for it.

It keep EVERYONE honest, it's better to encourage a standard for everyone to call a lawyer. Then to discourage such protection.

Lawyers are like condoms. You shouldn't need one, but it's a sick world out there.....

 

[SoSueMe]

From what I gathered at the hearing about cell phone records, no one is refusing to provide records, they are simply asking that the time frame be narrowed to coincide with the case and nothing more.

 

[songline]

<<<SNIP for space>>>
Anyone and everyone that has had anything to do with KC and her family has either been vilified by them or been subject to their innuendo of culpability, regardless of how far-fetched, desperate and mendaciously they have done it. I feel sorry for them all, but most of all for those who were already victims of KC's crimes of thievery and betrayal before this occurred. Their lives have been forever changed and they have paid an emotional and financial cost for knowing her - ALL OF WHICH would have easily been avoided if she and her parents had simply told the truth instead of asking innocent people to take the fall for something their irresponsible, lying, thieving adult daughter did. These people put the "hell" in Helicopter Parent.

IAT with your entire post,
but bold ed that part that I think is a real mouth full.
:clap::clap::clap:

 

[songline]

<<<SNIP for space>>>
Anyone and everyone that has had anything to do with KC and her family has either been vilified by them or been subject to their innuendo of culpability, regardless of how far-fetched, desperate and mendaciously they have done it. I feel sorry for them all, but most of all for those who were already victims of KC's crimes of thievery and betrayal before this occurred. Their lives have been forever changed and they have paid an emotional and financial cost for knowing her - ALL OF WHICH would have easily been avoided if she and her parents had simply told the truth instead of asking innocent people to take the fall for something their irresponsible, lying, thieving adult daughter did. These people put the "hell" in Helicopter Parent.

IAT with your entire post,
but bold ed that part that I think is a real mouth full.
:clap::clap::clap: