Chicago Police Kill 2 During Domestic Disturbance Call

[kimlynn]

How do we know it wasn't?

All we have heard is combative and charging down steps. Was he combative but only with father? Wouldn't we hear if there were more detail such as charged down the steps with bat raised to strike and we feared for our lives so we shot him dead.

 

[katydid23]

All we have heard is combative and charging down steps. Was he combative but only with father? Wouldn't we hear if there were more detail such as charged down the steps with bat raised to strike and we feared for our lives so we shot him dead.

If he was charging down the steps at the officers, with the metal bat in his hand, then that is a threat they would be concerned about. Especially if they were answering a DV call.

 

[kimlynn]

If he was charging down the steps at the officers, with the metal bat in his hand, then that is a threat they would be concerned about. Especially if they were answering a DV call.

So simply having a bat is a threat even if not raised in an effort to strike. I always thought you had to show just cause for self defense claims if lethal force is used.

 

[Montjoy]

I know there is training, but it's [sic] reliability out in there [sic] field is questionable.

rsbm

Hi there -- do you have a source for your claim?

 

[bluesneakers]

Should they be afraid if the bat isn't raised to strike? Maybe they need to get a grip on their emotions. IMO

Right? Like no unarmed person has ever been confronted by someone with a bat and come out alive. Please.

JMO

 

[katydid23]

rsbm

Hi there -- do you have a source for your claim?

Only what I have been told, first hand. The training only works in certain narrow circumstances. It does not work as well when the subject has a deadly weapon clenched in their hand.

 

[Montjoy]

Only what I have been told, first hand.

Ok, so in short, your answer is 'no'.

 

[katydid23]

Right? Like no unarmed person has ever been confronted by someone with a bat and come out alive. Please.

JMO

Most come out fine. But not all. Should we expect our officers to get into a physical fight with an angry mental health patient holding a metal bat?

 

[kimlynn]

Right? Like no unarmed person has ever been confronted by someone with a bat and come out alive. Please.

JMO

Yeah and it isn't like you couldn't retreat behind a vehicle. Heck they could have tired him out by having a chase around the cars for a bit.

 

[kimlynn]

Most come out fine. But not all. Should we expect our officers to get into a physical fight with an angry mental health patient holding a metal bat?

It's easier to shoot but shouldn't other methods be tried for those that really care about all those they are to protect and serve.

 

[bluesneakers]

So simply having a bat is a threat even if not raised in an effort to strike. I always thought you had to show just cause for self defense claims if lethal force is used.

Having any item on your person that frightens a police officer is grounds for them to use lethal force - hammer, knife, scissors, baseball bat, spoon, wallet. The list goes on and on.

And they wonder why we don't trust them.

 

[bluesneakers]

Most come out fine. But not all. Should we expect our officers to get into a physical fight with an angry mental health patient holding a metal bat?

Yes, we absolutely should.

 

[kimlynn]

Having any item on your person that frightens a police officer is grounds for them to use lethal force - hammer, knife, scissors, baseball bat, spoon, wallet. The list goes on and on.

And they wonder why we don't trust them.

Hissing cat and smokers. Also the back talkers that balk.

 

[katydid23]

Ok, so in short, your answer is 'no'.

I think this article sums it up:

Mental illness is a complex issue that is recently receiving significant attention. Mental health professionals, law enforcement, and caregivers are looking for a solution to this issue, but a solution is as evasive as the predictability of a potential threat.



http://www.policechiefmagazine.org/...n=display_arch&article_id=3490&issue_id=92014

 

[katydid23]

Yes, we absolutely should.

That is ridiculous. Why should someone put their own life on the line on a daily basis like that? Cops get into these kinds of dangerous situations routinely. We cannot expect them to physically wrestle a deadly weapon out of the hands of every suspect they have to confront. Why would any man or woman take a job that expects them to routinely do that?

They have families and loved ones that depend upon them too. If a father is too afraid of his own son to come out from behind a locked door, why should my son be expected to wrestle a knife or a bat out of the son's hands?

 

[Montjoy]

I think this article sums it up:

Mental illness is a complex issue that is recently receiving significant attention. Mental health professionals, law enforcement, and caregivers are looking for a solution to this issue, but a solution is as evasive as the predictability of a potential threat.



http://www.policechiefmagazine.org/...n=display_arch&article_id=3490&issue_id=92014

With respect, this is not a valid source. 'Police Chief Magazine' is dedicated to covering the posteriors of LEOs. So of course, if you ask them how to solve a problem with LEOs, the answers will range from "It's impossible!" to "It's too expensive -- unless you pay us a lot more."

 

[katydid23]

Yeah and it isn't like you couldn't retreat behind a vehicle. Heck they could have tired him out by having a chase around the cars for a bit.

We don't know the specifics. They were reportedly called on a domestic violence call--maybe they thought he was going to harm someone in the home with the bat?

 

[katydid23]

With respect, this is not a valid source. 'Police Chief Magazine' is dedicated to covering the posteriors of LEOs. So of course, if you ask them how to solve a problem with LEOs, the answers will range from "It's impossible!" to "It's too expensive -- unless you pay us a lot more."

If the CIT training was totally effective then we would not be having the ongoing problems we are now seeing. It works in certain cases but not in all cases.

 

[kimlynn]

That is ridiculous. Why should someone put their own life on the line on a daily basis like that? Cops get into these kinds of dangerous situations routinely. We cannot expect them to physically wrestle a deadly weapon out of the hands of every suspect they have to confront. Why would any man or woman take a job that expects them to routinely do that?

They have families and loved ones that depend upon them too. If a father is too afraid of his own son to come out from behind a locked door, why should my son be expected to wrestle a knife or a bat out of the son's hands?

Part of their job is to keep people safe and shouldn't that include those they encounter even if they have weapons or in this case suffer from a mental illness.
But it is easier to shoot a gun than to actually find a solution or another way to deal.

 

[bluesneakers]

That is ridiculous. Why should someone put their own life on the line on a daily basis like that? Cops get into these kinds of dangerous situations routinely. We cannot expect them to physically wrestle a deadly weapon out of the hands of every suspect they have to confront. Why would any man or woman take a job that expects them to routinely do that?

They have families and loved ones that depend upon them too. If a father is too afraid of his own son to come out from behind a locked door, why should my son be expected to wrestle a knife or a bat out of the son's hands?

Because he's a police officer and that's his job. If he's not up for it or he's too afraid he should seek other employment opportunities better suited to his temperament.

JMO