Christmas Morning Picture of Burke and JB...

  • #261
rashomon,

Well we do Patsy is quoted somewhere, possibly to LHP or Susan Stine, as describing how she went off sex during her chemo and utterly detested John's favored sex act.
UKGuy,

there are people on this board who have done immense case research in terms of sources, so before discussing this, let's just ask them: Does anyone here on the board have a documented source of either LHP or Susan Stine saying Patsy Ramsey "utterly detested John's favorite sex act"??
What I wrote you may characterise as seeig things a little too simplistic, but your above explanation for Patsy's pageant behaviour can be considered as a rationalisation for the sexualised grooming of a child?
Explaining is not the same as "explaining away", which I suppose you inferred by using the term "rationalisation".
The #247 to #252 posts on this thread by Albert18, Ames and BOESP offered good arguments as to why dressing up her child in a sexy outfit must not necessarily imply Patsy pimped her daughter to anyone. Have you read these posts? If yes, I'd be interested in your comments on them. TIA.
Well thats why it was mentioned just like her public defense that John could never molest JonBenet since Nedra slept in the same room.
This is indeed a strange comment on Patsy's part. But it doesn't bolster your 'Patsy pimped JonBenet to John' theory in any way.
You really must not beleive everything the Ramsey's tell you, they are attempting to avoid capital murder charges, not increase their moral worth so to eventually assure their entrance heaven.
Rest assured - I don't believe everything the Ramseys tell me - after all, I'm an RDI. :D

jmo
 
  • #262
BOESP,

The injuries as described in the autopsy report are the evidence, these head injuries are not those resulting from either a domestic accident or an assault struck out in anger.

.

Well it was not a gentle parting !!!
 
  • #263
In what Coloradokares is describing, domestic accident and intentional bludgeoning are really the same. JonBenet's head certainly didn't know the difference.

I think the word accident is tripping people up. I think the word accident in this case means when Patsy came into the presence of JonBenet, whenever and wherever this was, there was no intent at that moment to injure JonBenet. There must have been a trigger and whatever happened next wasn't supposed to have happened. JonBenet may have been thrown, chased, attacked, pushed, struck, grabbed, or a combination of any of these.

Thankyou for helping to process my thoughts into words. :)
 
  • #264
Well it was not a gentle parting !!!

coloradokares,

I agree, if you do some research on head trauma and associated fractures you will discover that JonBenet's does not fall into the domestic accident category, her head injuries most resemble that of being involved in a car crash, they fall into the most serious category normally defined as severe.

Patently they did not arise as the result on an unintentional event.


.
 
  • #265
UKGuy,

there are people on this board who have done immense case research in terms of sources, so before discussing this, let's just ask them: Does anyone here on the board have a documented source of either LHP or Susan Stine saying Patsy Ramsey "utterly detested John's favorite sex act"??
Explaining is not the same as "explaining away", which I suppose you inferred by using the term "rationalisation".
The #247 to #252 posts on this thread by Albert18, Ames and BOESP offered good arguments as to why dressing up her child in a sexy outfit must not necessarily imply Patsy pimped her daughter to anyone. Have you read these posts? If yes, I'd be interested in your comments on them. TIA.

This is indeed a strange comment on Patsy's part. But it doesn't bolster your 'Patsy pimped JonBenet to John' theory in any way.

Rest assured - I don't believe everything the Ramseys tell me - after all, I'm an RDI. :D

jmo

I dont know how to do that boxed quote. So may I respond to say I have never seen it said Susan Stine quoted Patsy as sharing that information with her. That does not make it impossible, but that I cannot verify that as a truthful statememt or untruthful. I will ask if its not a bother could we see the source on this and verify the sources credibility?
 
  • #266
The extent and severity of JonBenet's head injuries are not consistent with a domestic accident.
Of course JonBenet's head injury is not consistent with a domestic accident. For "domestic accident" refers to things like e. g. falling off a ladder when cleaning windows, or slipping on a freshly waxed floor which results in an injury. But I think the extent and severity of JonBenet's head injury is absolutely consistent with domestic violence. Would you agree?

[UKGuy]
The injuries as described in the autopsy report are the evidence, these head injuries are not those resulting from either a domestic accident or an assault struck out in anger.
[UKGuy]
Someone deliberately whacked JonBenet on the head with the intention of killing her!
These are mere allegations stated as fact.
Deliberately whacking someone on the head does not automatically imply intent to kill. For the attacker can simply be in such a blind rage that he/she has no idea of just how much damage will be caused by a forceful blow struck out in fury.

jmo
 
  • #267
I have a prime example of that. A friend of mine has a daughter who sings...and even though she is 15 now, she looks 11. When she performs, she wears really skimpy outfits. Tiny miniskirts....her face all made up...etc...and she has been doing this since she was about 8 or 9. One night when she was performing in her skimpy outfit, a man in the audience was taking pictures of her, with his cell phone. I told her mom about it later, (she was videotaping and didn't see him) and she was extremely upset. SEE...she is overly protective of her daughter, but she lets her dress provocatively..when she performs. Makes no sense....but, I think this is the same concept here, as Patsy and JB.


Let us not forget that the other pageant girls dress provacatively, not just JonBenet. That is part of this pageant scene...sexy clothes, sexy walk, sexy moves, and shoulder shrugs. I've seen kiddie pageant documentaries and they are not for the faint of heart.
 
  • #268
Let us not forget that the other pageant girls dress provacatively, not just JonBenet. That is part of this pageant scene...sexy clothes, sexy walk, sexy moves, and shoulder shrugs. I've seen kiddie pageant documentaries and they are not for the faint of heart.

No they are not.

I used to play the piano (for background music) at Pageants. I remember this one little four year old, all dolled up....poofy dress, poofy hair, tons of makeup....the whole nine yards. She threw up on stage right before the curtain opened. I can't remember why, but all of the little ones were on stage, at the beginning of the pageant. Anyway, she threw up all over her poofy dress, ruining her makeup...and the dress. Her mom started screaming at her. The little girl started crying, and ran off the stage. I felt so sorry for that little girl. This happened years ago, and I still remember it.
 
  • #269
Of course JonBenet's head injury is not consistent with a domestic accident. For "domestic accident" refers to things like e. g. falling off a ladder when cleaning windows, or slipping on a freshly waxed floor which results in an injury. But I think the extent and severity of JonBenet's head injury is absolutely consistent with domestic violence. Would you agree?



These are mere allegations stated as fact.
Deliberately whacking someone on the head does not automatically imply intent to kill. For the attacker can simply be in such a blind rage that he/she has no idea of just how much damage will be caused by a forceful blow struck out in fury.

jmo

rashomon,

You appear to be selective in the evidence you wish to use.

You are also attempting to obsfucate and restate a fact to suit your personal definition obviously because it matches with your personal theory.

But I think the extent and severity of JonBenet's head injury is absolutely consistent with domestic violence. Would you agree?
No it is consistent with a domestic homicide.

Go do your research, iterate the types of head trauma typically presented at AE, and you will find JonBenet's is rare. Simply because the types of domestic accident, and generally those involving domestic violence do not present the severity of injuries displayed by JonBenet. I'm not saying it never occurrs only that JonBenet's head injuries are not the result of a domestic accident, not even one following from rage, the childrens skulls may have hairline fractures, they may be concussed, unconcious etc, and the perpetrator is normally arrested, but JonBenet's skull injuries are in the most severe category, and I reckon you know this, since we have been over this topic before.

These are mere allegations stated as fact.
Deliberately whacking someone on the head does not automatically imply intent to kill. For the attacker can simply be in such a blind rage that he/she has no idea of just how much damage will be caused by a forceful blow struck out in fury.
It does if it is followed either by an asphyxiation or follows a sexual assault.

Blind rage does not absolve the perpetrator of any responsibility, or of intent, otherwise we could all kill at will and cite a blind rage.

Your theory appears to be blinding you to any cogent alternatives?


.
.
 
  • #270
Of course JonBenet's head injury is not consistent with a domestic accident. For "domestic accident" refers to things like e. g. falling off a ladder when cleaning windows, or slipping on a freshly waxed floor which results in an injury. But I think the extent and severity of JonBenet's head injury is absolutely consistent with domestic violence. Would you agree?



These are mere allegations stated as fact.
Deliberately whacking someone on the head does not automatically imply intent to kill. For the attacker can simply be in such a blind rage that he/she has no idea of just how much damage will be caused by a forceful blow struck out in fury.

jmo

Thanks and I had a severe closed head injury, fell backwards when the leg of a plastic lawn chair broke fractured skull closed head traumatic brain injury. Acccidents can and do kill. I was a fortunate suvivor. Took a long time to relearn the basics. Same with strokes that bleed into the brain. IMHO this was not a car accident as suggested . That picnic table did not give, not a smidge Bit. Can you inagine if this had been a childs skull propelled to the edge and making impact . We are talking damage that far exceeded my hematoma that was twice that of a dollar bill in size . JMHO
 
  • #271
In what Coloradokares is describing, domestic accident and intentional bludgeoning are really the same. JonBenet's head certainly didn't know the difference.

I think the word accident is tripping people up. I think the word accident in this case means when Patsy came into the presence of JonBenet, whenever and wherever this was, there was no intent at that moment to injure JonBenet. There must have been a trigger and whatever happened next wasn't supposed to have happened. JonBenet may have been thrown, chased, attacked, pushed, struck, grabbed, or a combination of any of these.
IMO, JonBenet may have said or done something to provoke her mother. Would a blow to the head inflicted during a moment like that be a second degree assault?


-Tea
 
  • #272
I'm no expert on these things, but maybe manslaughter? It'd have to be more than assault/battery if a death is involved.
 
  • #273
IMO, JonBenet may have said or done something to provoke her mother. Would a blow to the head inflicted during a moment like that be a second degree assault?


-Tea

Just for fun, email that question to Alex Hunter. You may have to define the word assault in a footnote.
 
  • #274
The way I see it re the sexualization of her daughter, PR viewed herself as being at her most beautiful during her pageant years. She needed to be seen as desired. I'm not seeing "sexy" here, per se, but desired, envied, admired. I don't think PR thought she was presenting JBR is a "sexual" way. I think she thought she WAS presenting her in an adult version of beauty, allure, etc. I think other pageant moms share this view. They'd be insulted at the inference that they "sexualized" their daughters. Because in their world, they want their daughters to appeal to the adult sense of what is beautiful, not necessarily sexy.
PR wanted the world to view her daughter as very beautiful, in a coquettish, flirtatious way. I do not think PR was a very "sexy" woman at all, even in her own pageant pictures. You can be pretty yet not sexy. And I am sure she felt that the ravages of her illness took her own beauty. Her interest in sex was by her own admission, virtually non-existant. I don't think PR wanted JBR to be seen as a sexual substitute for herself, but rather to be seen as a young beauty who will grow up to be a great beauty. The blonde curls, the blue contact lenses, big earrings, make up, outfits that were mini versions of adult clothes. It is as if the pageant mind-set is "You see how beautiful she is now? Just wait!"
 
  • #275
Or was cosumed in that moment by rage that was in that momemt indeed murderous. Are you at all familiar with the the unpredictable and horrendous rage that the mentally ill are capable of. I have personally seen it. It would scare the heebie jeebies right out of you. For that moment. Bi polar is only but one. They can be typically nice sweet overachievers who usually fail to achieve due to the cycling who thrive on being the center of attention. They are nothing if not driven people who are total control freaks who are so out of control. Whom dependent on their cyclng can be brilliant or of great harm to themselves or others. They are fully capable of a tailspin of rage, they have grandiose ideations that are seldom fulfilled as most cannot financially keep up with their own fiscal irresponsibilities Patsy had money and was not afraid to spend it creating the image she wanted dont take my word for it do some searchs which a good place to start would be a study on Patty Duke. But dont stop there I think you would be stunned to see the comparisons of that Personality disorder and how it stacks up to what we know of who Patsy was . That is my opinon of what I know and have read up on. Quite often the mental illness is hidden by family members. I hope that JMHO covers me on this.


I'm assuming you mean me,and YES,I AGREE WITH YOU 100%!! I have a relative with BPD...it is unreal.It really is,the things they can do and still think they're behaving logically...in their mind,it all adds up.
I mean no insult to anyone w/ BPD,it's just the nature of the illness.And it's a mood disorder;the person doesn't need to be disoriented to be ill with it.Many ppl make the mistake of thinking that just b/c someone knows the who,what and where of things,that's he's fine,and that isn't necessarily so.
 
  • #276
IMO, JonBenet may have said or done something to provoke her mother. Would a blow to the head inflicted during a moment like that be a second degree assault?


-Tea

Murder two with the special circumstance at the least. Premeditation might have been bit more difficult to prove and I dont think with the cord purchase even that was impossible This could have been capitol case after all the lies and stonewalling and no proof of intruder. In Denver vs Boulder it was at the least prosecuteable Have I mentioned Hunter at the least should have received thank you cards..Alas it was Boulder and you see just how much right and wrong had to do with any of it. That is just my humble 2 cents
 
  • #277
The way I see it re the sexualization of her daughter, PR viewed herself as being at her most beautiful during her pageant years. She needed to be seen as desired. I'm not seeing "sexy" here, per se, but desired, envied, admired. I don't think PR thought she was presenting JBR is a "sexual" way. I think she thought she WAS presenting her in an adult version of beauty, allure, etc. I think other pageant moms share this view. They'd be insulted at the inference that they "sexualized" their daughters. Because in their world, they want their daughters to appeal to the adult sense of what is beautiful, not necessarily sexy.
PR wanted the world to view her daughter as very beautiful, in a coquettish, flirtatious way. I do not think PR was a very "sexy" woman at all, even in her own pageant pictures. You can be pretty yet not sexy. And I am sure she felt that the ravages of her illness took her own beauty. Her interest in sex was by her own admission, virtually non-existant. I don't think PR wanted JBR to be seen as a sexual substitute for herself, but rather to be seen as a young beauty who will grow up to be a great beauty. The blonde curls, the blue contact lenses, big earrings, make up, outfits that were mini versions of adult clothes. It is as if the pageant mind-set is "You see how beautiful she is now? Just wait!"


You say you are not seeing "sexy" there but in the same breath you say Patsy wanted her daughter to look beautiful in a coquettish, flirtatious way.

HUH?
 
  • #278
I'm assuming you mean me,and YES,I AGREE WITH YOU 100%!! I have a relative with BPD...it is unreal.It really is,the things they can do and still think they're behaving logically...in their mind,it all adds up.
I mean no insult to anyone w/ BPD,it's just the nature of the illness.And it's a mood disorder;the person doesn't need to be disoriented to be ill with it.Many ppl make the mistake of thinking that just b/c someone knows the who,what and where of things,that's he's fine,and that isn't necessarily so.

I iave said it a thousand times resolved not prosecueted
 
  • #279
You say you are not seeing "sexy" there but in the same breath you say Patsy wanted her daughter to look beautiful in a coquettish, flirtatious way.

HUH?

It's a fine line...you can be flirtatious, coquettish, yet not overtly sexy. I'll try to think of an example. But keep in mind that different people, and men and women, have different opinions on what is sexy. There is blantantly sexy, which no one would mistake for anything else, but there are subtleties, too.

OK, try this (keep in mind I am a woman and may view these gals differently) Audrey Hepburn- to me, coquettish, not sexy. Marilyn Monroe- sexy, sexual, not coquettish.

Today's beauties...Reese Whitherspoon- pretty - not sexy
Lindsay Lohan- sexy.

Do you see what I mean?
 
  • #280
rashomon,
You appear to be selective in the evidence you wish to use.
UkGuy,

The current discussion here is about the skull fracture and what could have caused it. A selected topic does not mean being selective about the evidence in terms of ignoring other evidence.
You are also attempting to obsfucate and restate a fact to suit your personal definition obviously because it matches with your personal theory.
Aren't you projecting here, UKGuy? :)
For example, you insist that JonBenet's skull facture could only have been inflicted with 'murdeous intent' because you want it to match your theory the her death was a first-degree murder.
No it is consistent with a domestic homicide.
Domestic violence can result in domestic homicide. No contradiction here.
Go do your research, iterate the types of head trauma typically presented at AE, and you will find JonBenet's is rare.
Simply because the types of domestic accident, and generally those involving domestic violence do not present the severity of injuries displayed by JonBenet. I'm not saying it never occurrs only that JonBenet's head injuries are not the result of a domestic accident, not even one following from rage, the childrens skulls may have hairline fractures, they may be concussed, unconcious etc, and the perpetrator is normally arrested, but JonBenet's skull injuries are in the most severe category, and I reckon you know this, since we have been over this topic before.
Yes we have been over this topic before, and I dont think you will find any doctor who will state that JonBenet's skull fracture can't have been the result of a rage attack (and this is what you were driving at I suppose).
The experts consulted on the case said JonBenet's head wound was the result of blunt force trauma, and as for the 'punched out' piece of skull bone, this depends on variables like the form and weight of the object wielded, the velocity, and the exact angle at which it was swung. In short, there are many physical variables to be taken into account which we just don't know about. I'll see if I can dig up what has been said about the wound in terms of physics and post it on the 'skull fracture' thread.
It does if it is followed either by an asphyxiation or follows a sexual assault.
The key word here being "if".
Blind rage does not absolve the perpetrator of any responsibility, or of intent, otherwise we could all kill at will and cite a blind rage.
I don't think anyone here is of the opinion that blind rage absolves the perpetrator of any responsibility.(??)
For example, if Jim in a blind fury whacks Joe over the head with a beer mug in bar room brawl, injuring him deadly, Jim will have to stand trial in court. But the justice system differs between 'manslaughter' and 'murder', I think these are the terms used in the UK, also in Germany ('Totschlag'/ 'Mord). The US justice system has more categories: voluntary manslaughter/ 2nd degree murder/, 1st degree murder.
First-degree murder is regarded as the most severe crime, since it involves premeditation.
So at trial, Jim would probably have been found guilty of manslaughter. If alcohol came into play, while this would count as mitigating circumstance, it would in no way "absolve him of any responsibility."
I believe Patsy killed JonBenet in a rage, and if she had turned herself in after the crime, her blood alcohol level would have been tested. If it was above the drunk driving limit, then no doubt her defense team at trial would have used this in their strategy as mitigating circumstance.
I suppose if Patsy had confessed, she would have been found guilty of voluntary manslaughter. If she had not confessed and stood trial in a circumstantial evidence case, it would probably have been voluntary manslaughter followed by obstruction of justice, with John as an accomplice in the obstruction of justice.
Your theory appears to be blinding you to any cogent alternatives?

I've run these cogent alternatives through in my mind many times, but still always arrive back at Patsy being not only the main stager of the scene, but also the person who killed JonBenet in a rage.
I also have another theory (not posted yet) which takes possible sexual abuse by John into account, but it too is a rage attack theory.

But let's go through the cogent alternatives. Your theory is that JonBenet was whacked on the head to silence her for good. Who delivered the head blow? John? Please be specific, and don't just say "a person closely associated with the family".
What exactly happened on that night in your opinion? There is a 'members theories' thread on WS - if you would post your complete theory there including a time line, it woud be far easier to discuss it point per point. TIA.

jmo
 

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