Christmas Morning Picture of Burke and JB...

  • #341
UKGuy- the eroded hymen wasn't the only evidence. Yes, not all girls and women have identical sexual organs, just as there are differences in men and boys. But there was blood found in the vestibule and forchette (which is NOT normal in ANY pre-mentrual woman and indicates an injury or irritation of some kind). There was exposure of the vaginal rugae, bruising (NOT normal) and vascular congestion and hyperemia. While the hymen by itself would not necessarily lead to suspicion of sexual assault, taken as a whole, the findings certainly do. And inserting anything into the vagina of a 6-year old girl is sexual abuse, even if it was douching by a parent. A washcloth and vigorous scrubbing would NOT cause those injuries. You don't need to "scrub" through a child's hymen because she soils herself.

The autopsy also mentions a semi-liquid, watery fluid-like substance with a reddish tinge found in the vaginal vault. That suggests the fluid either started out that color or else blood became intermingled (which is my opinion of what is meant). Now, there are only a few things that could account for a semi-liquid watery fluid-like substance. Semen was not mentioned. Desitin (a diaper rash ointment) is mentioned in one questioning session (I believe Tom Haney) with Patsy. She is asked if she ever applied Desitin internally and her response was no. That leaves the likelihood of a douche liquid in my mind.

Any other ideas what this semi-liquid could be?
 
  • #342
But the coroner made no mention of any artifact substance. So LE bringing up Desitin is puzzling. I know a judge ordered the complete autopsy findings to be released, but I just wonder how much was actually was. I know when an autopsy is done the examiner speaks and records what they are doing and what they find. Not necessarily a final analysis. For example, the coroner describes JBR's jewery as "yellow metal". We know it's 14K, but the yellow metal would have to be subsequently tested to see if it is, in fact, 14K gold. In the same way, the semi-liquid and watery red fluid are decribed that way because that is how they appear on first look. Ditto the "tan mucous". Later testing would confirm whether any of those substances contained blood- the victim's or otherwise. And the swabs that were taken of the vaginal area and other places (hopefully the vomit smear on her cheek) should have been tested for the presence of drugs, toxic substances, etc.
 
  • #343
UKGuy- the eroded hymen wasn't the only evidence. Yes, not all girls and women have identical sexual organs, just as there are differences in men and boys. But there was blood found in the vestibule and forchette (which is NOT normal in ANY pre-mentrual woman and indicates an injury or irritation of some kind). There was exposure of the vaginal rugae, bruising (NOT normal) and vascular congestion and hyperemia. While the hymen by itself would not necessarily lead to suspicion of sexual assault, taken as a whole, the findings certainly do. And inserting anything into the vagina of a 6-year old girl is sexual abuse, even if it was douching by a parent. A washcloth and vigorous scrubbing would NOT cause those injuries. You don't need to "scrub" through a child's hymen because she soils herself.

DeeDee249,

Yes but does the foregoing description suggest acute and chronic sexual abuse?

Acute molestation is more important a feature than the chronic, since some people wish to characterise her genital injuries as staging?

There are three aspects to this case that for some reason are glossed over with wishful thinking and maternal homilies:

1. JonBenet's neck injuries.
2. JonBenet's patently, imo non-accidental, head injuries.
3. JonBenet's hidden sexual assault.

So the PDI goes: Patsy had a bad hair day, was toileting JonBenet, she lost it and inflicted the above on her beloved daughter?

JonBenet's injuries are so serious and sustained that they cannot be accidental, the crime scene was staged, the rationale more likely being to mask the removal of evidence than propose a kidnapper failed to carry off JonBenet.

So what evidence appears to have been masked, well her neck injuries by the garrote and her sexual assault by wiping her down and hiding it beneath layers of clothing, also the location of her death and possible redressing?

If John was not involved, how would he react to a naked, sexually assaulted JonBenet after being informed by Patsy hey I just killed JonBenet, but it was an accident, and I've got it sorted, I made it look like she was attacked by a sexual predator, aint that clever?


Why are JonBenet's size-6 underwear and third piece of the paintbrush missing? The missing piece of the paintbrush appears to offer no forensic links other than those offered by the residents, this also applies to the piece used to make the garrote and the part replaced in the paint-tote, so my money is on the missing piece having been left inside JonBenet, this also conforms with the garrote and its implied ritualistic theme. Her size-6 underwear must have dna and/or blood for them to be removed, soiled or wet is no big deal since these facets of JonBenet's behaviour were well known, also she was left wearing urine-soaked longjohns, so it appears the size-6's were taken to remove forensic evidence?

When JonBenet's sexual assault was hidden beneath layers of clothing and blankets, her killer(s) knew it would eventually be discovered, so what made the removal of her size-6's so imperative? Nobody could see them, who was going to look just after she was discovered, and what would it tell anyone immediately, imo it cannot have been simply staging since this could be achieved with or without bloodied size-6 underwear, as we know the size-12's had spots of blood on them, so where is the percentage?

So if it is staging why bother to hide a sexual assault that you know will be discovered eventually, why not just pin it on the failed kidnap attempt, just leave JonBenet semi-naked, visibly assaulted lying in the wine-cellar?

The reason imo is that it was not staging, JonBenet had been the victim of a sexual assault, and this was one of the major factors lying behind the removal of evidence, and its concealment beneath layers of clothing and blankets.


.
 
  • #344
I think that's exactly what it means...IMO...I think that something had been removed. I have no idea what, though. Notice he keeps saying..."this was on your role of film"...he says that more than once. Like..."What is this doing on YOUR roll of film, who took this picture"? Yes, she seemed surprised. OF COURSE, she tried to act surprised when she was told of JB's previous molestation, too, but I don't think that she is a very good actress.

Quite to the contrary- I think Pats deserved an Oscar for her speech to Lazarus alone...the 911 call was pretty impressive too.
 
  • #345
JMO8778,

Why should that be panick, thats a plan of action, so what prevented it from being executed?

lack of time (the 911 call came in pretty late,in acccordance with their prior plans of departing),fear of being discovered,or maybe once they calmed down a bit,they realized they didn't really want to do that anyway..so the WC was chosen as the spot to leave her in.JR may have also made a few phone calls and gotten some advice b/f proceeding as well.the phone records sure did disappear.(that doesn't mean he necessarily admitted any fault on his or Patsy's part..).


But why, whats the percentage, it can all be blamed on a nasty intruder, it will anyway, the sexual assault is a faite accompli, the deed was done, it could only be concealed, but it will be discovered at the autopsy.
but the R's didn't KNOW that for sure.so why bother to try to hide it anyway,unless plans changed and she was to be found in the house,meaning,JR sure didn't want to get the blame for that !

When was the sexual assault inflicted, there are no reports of blood outside or inside of the wine-cellar, other than what is on JonBenet's person?
your guess is as good as mine,UK.perhaps on her bed,and those sheets were quickly washed?perhaps no blood dripped,or was caught by the size 6 underwear,or a towel that was hidden and or later removed from the house?

I reckon what we think was done in the basement took place elsewhere, and the staging is influencing our perception of events?


.
could very well be.I wonder if perhaps the paintbrush and cord were brought up from the basement,the staging done in her room(as per the fibers found on her bed),and once that was complete,the RN was written,and they'd planned on getting her AND the rest of the paintbrushes/tote out of the house.but instead they decided to leave her down there with them,as items convenient for an 'intruder' to notice and use.
 
  • #346
Quite to the contrary- I think Pats deserved an Oscar for her speech to Lazarus alone...the 911 call was pretty impressive too.
I think Patsy missed her calling. She should have aspired to be an actress rather than Miss America.
 
  • #347
Yes but does the foregoing description suggest acute and chronic sexual abuse?

Acute molestation is more important a feature than the chronic, since some people wish to characterise her genital injuries as staging?


I think it was Cyril Wecht that said she had an injury that was around 72 hrs old...about the time the party on the 23rd occurred.and since chronic abuse was noted,why would that be less imprt?
why would acute abuse be more imprt? it could just be staging to cover the past abuse,and perhaps some fairly recent abuse.



There are three aspects to this case that for some reason are glossed over with wishful thinking and maternal homilies:

1. JonBenet's neck injuries.
2. JonBenet's patently, imo non-accidental, head injuries.
3. JonBenet's hidden sexual assault.

So the PDI goes: Patsy had a bad hair day, was toileting JonBenet, she lost it and inflicted the above on her beloved daughter?

it does happen,toileting isssues can bring about abuse and even murder.but IA,it does seem to be more than that.I do think patsy manually strangled JB,leaving her ring marks on her,that were noted as abrasions.the hidden assault..I've already covered that.




So what evidence appears to have been masked, well her neck injuries by the garrote and her sexual assault by wiping her down and hiding it beneath layers of clothing, also the location of her death and possible redressing?

IA(I agree),but you didn't include the head injury,which was covered by her hair being rearranged?
If John was not involved, how would he react to a naked, sexually assaulted JonBenet after being informed by Patsy hey I just killed JonBenet, but it was an accident, and I've got it sorted, I made it look like she was attacked by a sexual predator, aint that clever?

good point,but what if Patsy knew JB had been abused by JR,and so attempted to cover it with a staged sexaul assault?but I do agree that JR was in on it at some point,likely at an early point,although he may not have been present when JB's head injury was inflicted.


Why are JonBenet's size-6 underwear and third piece of the paintbrush missing? The missing piece of the paintbrush appears to offer no forensic links other than those offered by the residents, this also applies to the piece used to make the garrote and the part replaced in the paint-tote, so my money is on the missing piece having been left inside JonBenet, this also conforms with the garrote and its implied ritualistic theme.

I don't agree,UK.I think it most likely disappeared.there was speculation as to where the splinter came from.as well as if it were a *staged assault,they why leaving the item to stage it in place? I think it might have been broken off the paintbrush,used for staging,and then removed from the house at some point.

Her size-6 underwear must have dna and/or blood for them to be removed, soiled or wet is no big deal since these facets of JonBenet's behaviour were well known, also she was left wearing urine-soaked longjohns, so it appears the size-6's were taken to remove forensic evidence?
and perhaps some R dna? is that the real reason they disappeared,remember she was also *redressed in clean NEW underwear.I think the *new part was imprt to the stager,the fact they said Wed. was just a bonus.



When JonBenet's sexual assault was hidden beneath layers of clothing and blankets, her killer(s) knew it would eventually be discovered, so what made the removal of her size-6's so imperative? Nobody could see them, who was going to look just after she was discovered, and what would it tell anyone immediately, imo it cannot have been simply staging since this could be achieved with or without bloodied size-6 underwear, as we know the size-12's had spots of blood on them, so where is the percentage?

but again,they couldn't know for sure it would be discovered,yes the underwear could have had blood on them,as well as * R DNA* on them,thus necessitating the need for NEW,clean underwear.as well as,as I've said 1000x b/f...I think she was restaged.

So if it is staging why bother to hide a sexual assault that you know will be discovered eventually, why not just pin it on the failed kidnap attempt, just leave JonBenet semi-naked, visibly assaulted lying in the wine-cellar?

JR is IN the house...he lived there...so did JB.HE didn't want to get the blame for a sexual assault,whether it looked like something a parent could have done or not,made no difference to him once it was decided she would be found indoors.
The reason imo is that it was not staging, JonBenet had been the victim of a sexual assault, and this was one of the major factors lying behind the removal of evidence, and its concealment beneath layers of clothing and blankets.

while IA JB could have been sexually assaulted that night,I do not think it left a bleeding injury on her.I think Patsy may have walked in on something,and decided to let JB have it instead of JR.HE was her meal ticket,her ticket to the good life,and if she decided she could no longer live with what was going on in that house(whether she knew or suspected it previously or not),then one of them 'had to go',just as she stated JB had to go,and so she did.
 
  • #348
Quite to the contrary- I think Pats deserved an Oscar for her speech to Lazarus alone...the 911 call was pretty impressive too.


Oh yeah, she was a great actress when it came to those REHEARSED things...but, when she was confronted about the molestion, I think that it caught her completely off guard...she didn't have time to rehearse her answer for THAT one. imo
 
  • #349
I think Patsy missed her calling. She should have aspired to be an actress rather than Miss America.

You said it! She even won the talent contest in 1977 for her "talent," which was a monologue. That's acting and for a monologue to have won the talent competition it had to be good.

Does anyone recall if mention has ever been made publicly about what Burke had on that night at the Whites? I can't find a reference for that information. TIA
 
  • #350
You said it! She even won the talent contest in 1977 for her "talent," which was a monologue. That's acting and for a monologue to have won the talent competition it had to be good.

Does anyone recall if mention has ever been made publicly about what Burke had on that night at the Whites? I can't find a reference for that information. TIA

Have you checked all of John and Patsy's interviews?? That question was asked of John, but he couldn't remember....he remembered what JB was wearing, though. He couldn't even remember what Patsy wore. But, it may be in another one of their interviews.
 
  • #351
I think Patsy missed her calling. She should have aspired to be an actress rather than Miss America.

And she sang Patsy Cline's..."Crazy"...at a Christmas party in 1996, for Access Graphics. :crazy: Yep, that just about sums it up....

It was a CHRISTMAS PARTY...not a talent show. Why not..."Silent Night"..."Rudolph the Red Nose Reindeer", "Frosty the Snowman"...etc...those are Christmas songs...not "Crazy". :waitasec:
 
  • #352
And she sang Patsy Cline's..."Crazy"...at a Christmas party in 1996, for Access Graphics. :crazy: Yep, that just about sums it up....

It was a CHRISTMAS PARTY...not a talent show. Why not..."Silent Night"..."Rudolph the Red Nose Reindeer", "Frosty the Snowman"...etc...those are Christmas songs...not "Crazy". :waitasec:
Maybe it was a cry for help from Patsy.....:confused:
 
  • #353
Have you checked all of John and Patsy's interviews?? That question was asked of John, but he couldn't remember....he remembered what JB was wearing, though. He couldn't even remember what Patsy wore. But, it may be in another one of their interviews.

Yes, I've read all the interviews at ACandyRose and/or RealSundanceKid, some of then I've read two or three times. Maybe I read it and forgot. :crazy:
 
  • #354
Oh yeah, she was a great actress when it came to those REHEARSED things...but, when she was confronted about the molestion, I think that it caught her completely off guard...she didn't have time to rehearse her answer for THAT one. imo

I think she thought it had been covered or accounted for with either the staging,or the wiping down and redressing.I don't think she ever thought she'd be q'd about it..it was all to have been taken care of in the way JB was left.
 
  • #355
And she sang Patsy Cline's..."Crazy"...at a Christmas party in 1996, for Access Graphics.
Ames, this was sung at the 1995 party, not the 1996 one.


-Tea
 
  • #356
Maybe it was a cry for help from Patsy.....:confused:
Since you think there's the possibility this could have been a cry for help, let me ask you: What do the lyrics convey to you?

Crazy
Willie Nelson
Crazy,
I'm crazy for feelin so lonely...
I'm crazy,
Crazy for feelin so blue...
I knew you'd love me as long as you wanted,
And then someday, you'd leave me for somebody new.
Worry,
Why do I let myself worry?
Wonderin,
What in the world did I do?
Oh...
Crazy,
For thinkin that my love could hold you...
I'm crazy for tryin,
And crazy for cryin,
And I'm crazy for lovin you...
Crazy,
For thinkin that my love could hold you...
I'm crazy for tryin,
And crazy for cryin,
And I'm crazy for lovin you...







-Tea
 
  • #357
Hi, icedtea,
I thought Patsy sung "Crazy" at the 96 Christmas party. Turns out it was 95 .
I always thought of the song as a "jilted lover" type song. Do you think Patsy Ramsey had a special attachment to the song??
Were you teasing me or do you think there are clues in the lyrics? :waitasec:
 
  • #358
IMO John has a wandering eye....always has, always will.

Remember the blond bit*h down the street?

When John was being questioned by LE, he tells detectives that he noticed an attractive woman at Pasta Jays Christmas Eve. He mentions the word attractive twice. His daughter was murdered and he talks about this attractive blonde...
 
  • #359
sounds like the lyrics are something she might have aimed at JR.
 
  • #360

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