Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #2

[Bartholemeus]

RSBM.


RSBM.

What if they are trying to use DNA from Julie Cutler's disappearance?

If it matches the DNA found on cigarettes in her vehicle great, they found her likely killer who may have committed the other crimes.

If it doesn't match the DNA from Julie's car, then this means nothing. Well it means they didn't find Julie's killer. But the person still could've done the other crimes.

"With advances in technology , we hope DNA can be obtained off cigarette filters that were found in Julie's car ,'' she [Julie's sister Rachel] said."

http://www.crimecasefiles.com/forum/missing-persons/22609-story-on-julie-cutler.html

The car was found in the Indian Ocean. From the other article you posted, it suggests this would have wiped the DNA.

There's a few fascinating things about the Cutler case;

1. How did the killer get the car into the surf?
2. People don't just kill randoms as a once off. People kill people the know for a variety of reasons. But people who murder randoms - they don't usually don't kill and then stop.

I recall reading in DM's book that she was seeing 2 different men and they were the main suspects. I will try and dig this up.

 

[Sutton]

We don't know if this footage exists because only one poster said he saw it. The said poster didn't come across as your typical liar type that seems attracted to these threads. The issue I have with it is that if this footage did exist and a group of patrons moved towards the road and then back again, it strongly suggests taxi. They would have had this footage within days and would have spoken to every single person in that group and determined whether they stepped out for a taxi.

I do recall early in the piece seeing to lots of footage but never noticed car headlights. I could have easily missed it because I was focussed on MM rather than whether there were headlights on the road and whether a group momentarily stepped out as if to get in a taxi.

In thread one, the poster explains what he originally viewed. Other posters can read it here:
Post 563

I agree that the poster comes across as honest, but it's somewhat attention hungry in that he says he is the original person who noticed and commented on the existence of the alternate version of the video. The police see his post and remove the video. He then becomes a POI, but is later cleared as he is a young man raising a three-year-old daughter.

I agree that this police would have ready asked the group members about this (they identified and spoke to everyone there, especially the last people known to see Jane). The story doesn't quite fit. I don't want to question it is detail if the poster is not around to explain. Thanks for confirming that this isn't a well known version of events and it hasn't been backed up by other posters.

 

[Sutton]

The post mentioned in the previous comment says Jane is in the taxi rank. Does that just mean line? So there was an area where taxis would pull up and you could just grab the next one (like you would at an airport)?

If that's true, and taxis would generally go to this area because they knew they could grab a fare, then why would Ciara walk down to Stirling Hwy. towards Mossman Park? It was stated she walked there bc she thought she could catch a cab more easily, but wouldn't she just go to the place where cabs automatically gather, where she happened to already be located?

Secondly, this article states the Continental closed at midnight. Can anyone confirm? That seems quite early, especially on a weekend (when Jane went missing.) What time do most clubs/bars close there? Hopefully someone will remember what it was like in the 90's.
http://www.abc.net.au/radionational...onvictions---the-claremont/3473202#transcript

 

[Bartholemeus]

The post mentioned in the previous comment says Jane is in the taxi rank. Does that just mean line? So there was an area where taxis would pull up and you could just grab the next one (like you would at an airport)?

If that's true, and taxis would generally go to this area because they knew they could grab a fare, then why would Ciara walk down to Stirling Hwy. towards Mossman Park? It was stated she walked there bc she thought she could catch a cab more easily, but wouldn't she just go to the place where cabs automatically gather, where she happened to already be located?

Secondly, this article states the Continental closed at midnight. Can anyone confirm? That seems quite early, especially on a weekend (when Jane went missing.) What time do most clubs/bars close there? Hopefully someone will remember what it was like in the 90's.
http://www.abc.net.au/radionational...onvictions---the-claremont/3473202#transcript

AFAIK the taxi rank is across the other side of Gugeri St directly outside the train station. So that means she was first in line rather than at the actual taxi rank. I'm guessing but probably the taxi rank accross the road is empty and the best place to get a cab was directly out the front? Trains used to finish at approx 11:30pm so there wouldn't be people getting off a train to catch a cab. Anyone getting a cab would be from Conti.

Re CG: Taxi go up and down the Hwy all the time. It may have been a better option (to catch a cab rather than get murdered). CG had just returned from Europe where reportedly did a lot of hitch hiking. She would have been told about the CSK but she didn't really live in the area throughout the first two abductions. Add a few drinks and a bit of swagger....

I can confirm Conti closed at midnight. Some would go home, some would walk around the corner and line up at Club Bay View which was open til 3-4am.

Conti is The Claremont Hotel. It's a pub. Pubs in Australia are typically licenses to 12am or 1pm in the suburbs. Clubs are licensed to stay open later.

 

[Sutton]

In thread one, the poster explains what he originally viewed. Other posters can read it here:
Post 563

The link I posted is wrong. This is correct:
Post 563

 

[Bartholemeus]

This is what I posted on the old thread. I went through the JR video frame by frame and came up with this:


Here's how I calculated it (same as others but a bit more detail):


23:58:37 -> 23:58:48 - Door cam - JR standing on kerb and then walks 2m onto Bay View Tce. Camera cuts when she on Bay View Tce

-----
5 seconds missing. Where did it go?
-----

23:58:53 -> 23:58:59 - Corner Cam - JR now back on the kerb

-----
Footage jumps ahead 1 minute and 48 seconds
-----

00:00:47 -> 00:00:49 - Corner Cam - JR still on kerb

-----
Footage jumps ahead 29 seconds
-----

00:01:18 -> 00:01:20 - Door Cam - JR still on kerb

-----
Footage jumps ahead 11 seconds
-----

00:01:31 -> 00:01:38 - Corner Cam - JR still on kerb

-----
There's now a segway where Leibman explains MM is about to appear. 2-3 seconds is lost but it's on the same camera (Corner Cam)
-----

00:01:41 -> 00:01:42 - Corner Cam - MM appears

-----
Footage jumps ahead 28 seconds. What we don't see is how long MM talks to JR for and in what direction he heads in.
-----

00:02:10 -> 00:02:19 - Door Cam - MM is gone, JR standing on kerb

-----
Footage jumps ahead 1 minute 39 seconds
-----

00:03:58 -> 00:04:09 - Door Cam - JR still on kerb

-----
No footage lost despite Leibman saying 28 second jump
-----

00:04:10 -> 00:04:19 - Corner Cam - JR still on kerb

-----
Footage jumps 31 seconds
-----
00:04:50 - Door Cam - JR has disappeared



-------------------------------------------------------------

A few observations:

1. The police have edited the footage. The whole sequence from being out front alone to walking onto Bay View Tce, to MM appearance, to disappearance is 6 minutes. You can see why they had to edit it. But how selective were they? They did chop it up enough so we could see how many seconds each Cam is set to. The longest run on 1 Cam we can see is 11 seconds. Maybe they are set to 20 seconds before changing to the other?

2. As proven previously, the cameras are continuous. Both Door Cam and Corner Cam can see JR. And they have the footage but decided to edit it out. They know if she got into a car or if she walked off, then in what direction.

3. They also don't show us what direction MM walked off in, nor how long he talked to her before

4. It seems obvious to me this footage was release to promote the CIA episode and MM was just a red herring. <modsnip>

5. There was approximately 2 minutes and 30 seconds between MM leaving and JR disappearing. Enough to go get his car (although I don't believe this is what happened)

6. As mentioned by others, she walks onto Bay View Tce because she's waiting for a cab/car.


There's a camera on JR at all times and they have the footage. They either know if she got in a car or walked across the road or around the corner etc.

 

[Sutton]

Thanks for documenting the very specific times and notating which camera and the amount of time edited from the video.

Idk why, but I never considered that Jane may have had more interaction with the MM, that's been edited out. I think this is possible, but what would be LE's point? LE wants attention for the show, but why do a bunch of crazy editing? Why not just say, "Here's Jane with the MM for 3 minutes"?

Regarding #4, as to the video release being a red herring designed to increase viewership--Maybe the entire show was designed to put pressure on the killer. The killer is probably wondering if he is in some part of the video from that night (just walking by, or just his vehicle). Maybe LE was trying to increase his anxiety by cutting the video up and leaving him wondering.

There are so many factors we don't know. Getting just one new piece of info could totally change our opinions of the case.

We need a verified insider from the police force to join the thread. Maybe I'll send them an invite ;-)

 

[Bartholemeus]

I don't think it's reasonable for police to release 6 minutes of footage, much of which would be irrelevant. But when you go through the footage you son realise there are no blind spots between the two cameras. Police would know how long MM spoke to JR for. They also probably know if JR moved towards the road, towards CBV or towards Gugeri St when she disappeared from view.

I think it's highly likely this footage was edited and served up for no other means as a platform to put the spotlight on judoman.

They interviewed every other person in Claremont that night except MM. Those people out the front of Conti would have said if they intended to get in a cab but had to wait because JR was waiting for a cab first.

If they felt MM was a serious POI they would have released the footage much earlier.

The CSK case has been quite busy in the media in the last 12 months. I suspect most of these are controlled leaks/releases. I think they're quite busy in the background.

 

[Sutton]

I do not think MM is or ever was a suspect. I believe he was cleared very early on--otherwise the video would have been released right away.

Were there any other missing girls or rapes or murders of young girls in the beginning of 2008 in that area? Or attempts? Girls similar in appearance to the three known victims?

 

[Sutton]

Gary Ridgeway killed at least seventy women in Washington state (U.S.) in the 80's and 90's. He is more commonly known as the Green River Killer. He was caught by DNA in 2001.

During the early 80's John Douglas from the FBI created a behavioral profile and suggested some techniques that might encourage the killer to become involved with the investigation and to might increase his anxiety level. One thing recommended was to release a media report announcing new new advances in forensic techniques were allowing LE to close in on the killer.

It's my understanding that this was recommended to be headline news, not a news blip. That is what I think was done with the CIA show. I know many other posters have believed this for a long time (just wanted to give an example of a similar occurrence).

Articles published immediately after the CIA episode stressed that readers should report coworkers who exhibited specific symptoms of increased anxiety for no apparent reason.

There are many differences between Green River Killer and the Claremont Serial Killer--I'm not saying they are similar. My source for info was Anne Rule's book, Green River, Running Red. This is covered in chapter 10. Anne Rule has two amazing books, this one and her book chronicling her friendship with and the crimes of Ted Bundy. She has dozens of not very good books.)

 

[Bartholemeus]

I do not think MM is or ever was a suspect. I believe he was cleared very early on--otherwise the video would have been released right away.

Were there any other missing girls or rapes or murders of young girls in the beginning of 2008 in that area? Or attempts? Girls similar in appearance to the three known victims?

Yes.

1. A 19 year old girl was abducted from Rowe Park walking home from Claremont after a night out. She was had a bag put over her head and was forced into a van. She was then driven to Karakatta cemetary and raped. She was then left for dead inside the cemetary (somewhere near Kareela St I believe)

She never saw the guy so couldn't identify him. I assume police have the DNA.

I wonder if this is the guy who Con Bayens came across in Northbridge? Did they get this man's DNA and run it through the database to see if there were any matches?

I struggle to believe people who commit crimes this well planned and violent aren't multiple offenders. A good chance this was the CSK.

2. Attempted abduction behind Club Bay View. I think a guy tried to force a girl into his car.

3. Unconfirmed - The taxi incident. BF place it on Princess Rd Claremont. DM places it on Bay View Tce. Apparently a girl got in a taxi and then a man tried to grab her from his hiding spot in the back seat. The girl was unable to get the taxi number or provide a clear description of the driver. I'm going to call bull**** on this one. If this happened police would have that photo ID plastered all over the media as soon as JR went missing.

 

[Sutton]

Were those incidents in 2007 or 2008?

I am looking for a reason of why they'd release the MM footage "out of the blue."
It seems like realizing something 10+ years in isn't going to put that much pressure on the CSK...unless he'd been recently active.

 

[Sutton]

Do you think the Con Bayens' POI is the guy? If they didn't get DNA at the time, can they get it another way? I mean, they can't force him, can they?

Here, it is legal to go thru someone's trash at the curb. Sometimes police will do that. Or they'll follow the POI around and grab his discarded fast food cup or cigarette butt. Would they be allowed to do so there?

 

[Bartholemeus]

Were those incidents in 2007 or 2008?

I am looking for a reason of why they'd release the MM footage "out of the blue."
It seems like realizing something 10+ years in isn't going to put that much pressure on the CSK...unless he'd been recently active.

They were a year or so before the CSK murders.

I have no doubt the MM footage was an carrot dangled to garner public interest as part of their operation to have a no stoned unturned look at judoman.

 

[Bartholemeus]

Do you think the Con Bayens' POI is the guy? If they didn't get DNA at the time, can they get it another way? I mean, they can't force him, can they?

Here, it is legal to go thru someone's trash at the curb. Sometimes police will do that. Or they'll follow the POI around and grab his discarded fast food cup or cigarette butt. Would they be allowed to do so there?

Gut feeling is he isn't the guy. But you never know and you'd hope Macro have since had a real good look at him. A lined boot and abduction kit means there's something wrong with this guy and he's either committed crimes previously or since. And of course it could be the CSK. Also could be an organised crime figure about to abduct someone over a drug debt etc.

They'd need to get a warrant from the courts to get his DNA. I'd suggest "we accosted this guy with a plastic lined boot and abduction kit" would be enough but couldn't be sure.

Unsure what's legal here with regards to collecting DNA (I'll have a look) but if they did have CSK DNA I'd expect the taskforce to illegally get major suspects DNA and try to get a match (off the books). If they get a match they hone in on that suspect and do everything by the book.

 

[Bartholemeus]

Julie Cutler

From DM's book (The Devil's Garden by Debbie Marshall):

Page 136: LW went to school with Julie Cutler

Earlier in the book: LW went to North Cottesloe Primary and Swanbourne High School

Page 136:

Media reports consistently claim that police told JC's parents she may be the first victim of the CSK, but in Macro's management meetings investigators failed to reach a conclusion on this either way. "It's known she had two boyfriends of European extraction, and word from police is they are implicated in her disappearance," a journalist tells me. "JC is definitely dead, no question. The location of her car, in the sea off Cottesloe Beach - close to where LW lives with his parents - certainly went part of the way toward them building a circumstantial case against him".

 

[Criminalmimes]

Hi all,
I've been reading these threads over the past few days and there's some amazing stuff in here.
I'm a local but was only 9-10 when this all occurred. I've heard a lot of rumours over the years, I can't verify what's just small town gossip or what might be true.
At one point it was rumored that RAC drivers were being looked at (I think the American equivalent is AAA? Guys who come help you when your car breaks down?). This may have been a variation on the taxi driver theme though.

For me, I really think the key is SS, and Claremont. Reasoning? There are way easier places to find victims in WA. Victims who won't be reported missing for months. Or even if the 'good girl' type was important, there were still plenty of alternatives to Claremont. That this guy returned there even after JR was found tells me there is something important about Claremont and he is familiar with it.
Secondly - SS. I believe that CSK frankly didn't care about JR and CG being found. He had total disregard for their bodies (JR facedown?!). Again, in an area like WA, there are ways to make a body disappear for good. A body being found means either the guy wasn't clever enough to hide it, or he didn't care. And considering SS has never been found I don't think this guy is dumb. So he didn't care. They were random, or at least far enough removed that he didn't feel like he could be identified through them.
So following that theory, why has SS not shown up? She was important. Maybe it's as simple as she was the first, but if JC is included, SS wasn't the first. My guess is SS knew CSK, and was important to him somehow. He's deliberately kept her, and I would suspect that he revisits her if he is still in the area.

 

[Bartholemeus]

Sound theory. But just as plausible is logistics and time made him change how in depth he went to hide the bodies. If your theory is correct then we're talking about someone who was infatuated with her. He would have had have known her reasonably well and for a reasonable time period.

 

[Sutton]

The Julie Cutler situation is confusing. First, there is very little information available about her life, her last known actions or the where her car was found.

There is general info about her family and education, but I wish we knew more about the boyfriends (was there a history of violence, were they serious relationships, jealous, etc.). And who did she talk to at work that evening? Did she say if she was going home? Where did she park? Were there tired tracks to the ocean? How far out was the vehicle?

I know there aren't answers to these questions. It's impossible to say if she was a CSK victim or not. In the posts above, her sister said LE revealed the CSK connection to her parents. But was it a definite or just a "we are considering a connection to the CSK"? Then the excerpt from the book sounds like there are two other good suspects.

What do we know that JC had in common with the other girls? She went to an exclusive school, she was youngish, pretty, she was abducted late at night from a upscale (?) area. Anything else?

 

[Sutton]

Hi all,
I've been reading these threads over the past few days and there's some amazing stuff in here.
I'm a local but was only 9-10 when this all occurred. I've heard a lot of rumours over the years, I can't verify what's just small town gossip or what might be true.
At one point it was rumored that RAC drivers were being looked at (I think the American equivalent is AAA? Guys who come help you when your car breaks down?). This may have been a variation on the taxi driver theme though.

For me, I really think the key is SS, and Claremont. Reasoning? There are way easier places to find victims in WA. Victims who won't be reported missing for months. Or even if the 'good girl' type was important, there were still plenty of alternatives to Claremont. That this guy returned there even after JR was found tells me there is something important about Claremont and he is familiar with it.
Secondly - SS. I believe that CSK frankly didn't care about JR and CG being found. He had total disregard for their bodies (JR facedown?!). Again, in an area like WA, there are ways to make a body disappear for good. A body being found means either the guy wasn't clever enough to hide it, or he didn't care. And considering SS has never been found I don't think this guy is dumb. So he didn't care. They were random, or at least far enough removed that he didn't feel like he could be identified through them.
So following that theory, why has SS not shown up? She was important. Maybe it's as simple as she was the first, but if JC is included, SS wasn't the first. My guess is SS knew CSK, and was important to him somehow. He's deliberately kept her, and I would suspect that he revisits her if he is still in the area.

Hiya. Welcome. Are the RAC vehicles marked with decals or a light? Or are they local mechanics who the main RAC contacts thru? (yep, AAA in the states, but they are local and would usually be a tow truck, but I have had a regular sedan come for car trouble once)
This guy would be familiar with Claremont, that makes sense. So it was close to his home or work or he spent a lot of time there.
As far as knowing SS: I see why you feel that way. After I watched the CIA episode and learned that Judoman knew Sarah fairly well thru work, it made sense that he would hide her so she could never be found. But, that's the only thing "different" about her. Many (most ?) SK's have some victims that are never found.
So, once again, I'm undecided.