Australia Claremont Serial Killer, 1996 - 1997, Perth, Western Australia - #3

[Bartholemeus]

A question for anyone well versed in serial killer theory;

Is there a break down (as in groupings) of women killers, i.e.

1. Partner killings - crimes of passion, jealousy, bumping the wife to be with young tramp, killing the wife because she showed disrespect by leaving etc
2. One offs - things got out of hand, rejection, maybe a rape, fit of rage, end up in a murder
3. The rapist who kills so he can't be identified
4. The psychopathic killer with no empathy who gets off sexually on killing

Anyone know if any experts group them similar to this?

I look at Wark and think number 3. I look at Morey and think he's number 4.

 

[elastic]

A question for anyone well versed in serial killer theory;

Is there a break down (as in groupings) of women killers, i.e.

1. Partner killings - crimes of passion, jealousy, bumping the wife to be with young tramp, killing the wife because she showed disrespect by leaving etc
2. One offs - things got out of hand, rejection, maybe a rape, fit of rage, end up in a murder
3. The rapist who kills so he can't be identified
4. The psychopathic killer with no empathy who gets off sexually on killing

Anyone know if any experts group them similar to this?

I look at Wark and think number 3. I look at Morey and think he's number 4.

What would you call the CSK?

3 or 4.

We know he did Karrakatta, there are reports I believe that he may have let her go, and others saying she escaped. We also dont know what the CSK did with Sarah, there are any number of possibilities.. were Ciara and Jane raped? its never been revealed...

I think Serial killers can be anything and over analyzing what some have been in the past may not be credible anymore now that modern day serial killers watch modern day forensics. Changing MO's is something I believe a serial killer does regularly now. Not in the past has this always been the case. Although examples like Eric Edgar Cooke spring to mind. Also Richard Dorrough and his murderous car rage attempt failure that landed him in hot water.

In terms of serial killers being rapists and also serial killing just for killing. Well there are probably multiple elements, depending on the victim the killer may feel like satisfying his urges by killing, in other occasions, if the time is right, and he has the victim to himself he may choose to rape them and then kill them, or maybe rape, torture then kill or just torture and kill, or maybe just kill. reading into a serial killers mind is apocalyptic. Its everything from the border lines of insanity, to the most sophisticated and precise assassin like behavior.

There are ofcourse doctors who get off on killing patients too, affluent psychopaths that have found an easy avenue to satisfy whatever it is they crave.

Morey does indead seem to fit 4, Wark may or may have not been a 3, we don't know yet the true extent of what he really is. But he did abduct most likely. He is a serial rapists which puts him at 3. But do we know what he did with Hayley, we assume rape, but he could have just murdered her in cold blood, we still don't know this.

The CSK doesnt seem that sophisticated. But he is brutal and violent and leaves his victims stunned before attempting to carry out whatever sick fantasy he has in mind. He would appear to be highly confident, he knows the night spot well, he may be a Police mans son, or claim to be because he may be linked to a police family. Or he may not be, but the reports are there and we do know the case was bungled.

 

[elastic]

How about we stick to facts rather than emotions?

As far as we know Wark isn't a serial killer but we don't know if he's done more or would have done more. I think everyone agrees withelastic and yourself that he's a very dodgy bloke. Let's not overplay it with emotion though or argue over split hairs.

For me the chances of Wark being the CSK are slim. But a good point elastic brought up previously was, "just how many serial killers can you have in one geographical area?". Perth has almost 2m people. There's an alarming amount of killers getting around. From what we know of Morey and Wark, I believe they'd both keep killing if they weren't caught so I believe they were heading to serial killer stardom. Then there's the CSK who I think is someone else.

In some parts of the world serial killers are very rare. We have them in droves in Australia, and WA seems to be the home for a lot of them. Take for example New Zealand, where its debatable whether they have even had a single serial killer. Then in WA we seem to have up to 4 possibly operating at any given time, unless one of the unknown serial killers is actually one of the known or highly likely serial killers operating.

WA seems to have alot of murderers and these all seem to be either drug related, or meth fueled, or involve family or relationships, its rare that people murder in cold blood, but it happens too, then we have the deranged serial killer, many of them all roaming around together in a period of the 90's, we also had serial rapist Mark Dixie, who may have killed before and may also be a serial killer according to British police. All operating in the same tiny WA population.

Then Perth has its large share of serial rapists who tend to pop up from time to time, I wonder how many of these rapists decide to kill, hopefully WA Police have looked into the backgrounds of all the known rapists in WA, otherwise what the hell is the longest and most expensive police operation actually funding? Seems like its a nice cushy desk job for the elite crop of WA detectives all cashing in on a slice of a seemingly bungled investigation tainted with corrupt officers involvement and many independent reviews headed of course by the WA police themselves.. ridiculous. Will we ever see a coronial inquest? I doubt it, there's too much at stake here, something must have gone horribly wrong in those early years

 

[Bartholemeus]

What would you call the CSK?

3 or 4.

An absolute 4.

But just keep in mind I made those groups up and don't know if they align with the experts' take on things. But a definite 4 for me.

We know he did Karrakatta, there are reports I believe that he may have let her go, and others saying she escaped.

I'm not convinced to be honest. Macro (or whatever incarnation it is these days) have made a lot of noise over the past 24 months. It seems to me they are releasing carefully planned information through the press with an agenda behind it and this information is not necessarily accurate. Might be, might not be. I'm open minded about it.

We also dont know what the CSK did with Sarah, there are any number of possibilities.. were Ciara and Jane raped? its never been revealed...

Science suggests JR would have been deep into decomposition so they wouldn't know either way. There's a school of thought CG was not raped. If true, why? One school of thought would be that even though the killing is sexually motivated it doesn't mean the killer gets off on actual sex with the victim (someone else posted here about a history of impotence with serial killers). Another reason a serial killer might not have intercourse with a victim is that she is menstruating.

As for Karrakatta Guy - the reason he may not have killed is because he was still evolving. It could have been the last one before he started to kill. If the information released by police through the press is correct then we'd have to assume this. My strong understanding (from media articles) is that he left her in the cemetery.

I think Serial killers can be anything and over analyzing what some have been in the past may not be credible anymore now that modern day serial killers watch modern day forensics. Changing MO's is something I believe a serial killer does regularly now. Not in the past has this always been the case. Although examples like Eric Edgar Cooke spring to mind. Also Richard Dorrough and his murderous car rage attempt failure that landed him in hot water.

The CSK did 3 girls of the same demographic in the same geographical area. He is drawn to that area and the victim demographic. Sure, he could have changed up but to remain undetected he would have had change 180 degrees into someone who kills with a different MO everytime as not to have his killings linked. Certainly possible but I think the percentages still point to the CSK stopping because he was a POI.

 

[Bartholemeus]

In some parts of the world serial killers are very rare. We have them in droves in Australia, and WA seems to be the home for a lot of them. Take for example New Zealand, where its debatable whether they have even had a single serial killer. Then in WA we seem to have up to 4 possibly operating at any given time, unless one of the unknown serial killers is actually one of the known or highly likely serial killers operating.

WA seems to have alot of murderers and these all seem to be either drug related, or meth fueled, or involve family or relationships, its rare that people murder in cold blood, but it happens too, then we have the deranged serial killer, many of them all roaming around together in a period of the 90's, we also had serial rapist Mark Dixie, who may have killed before and may also be a serial killer according to British police. All operating in the same tiny WA population.

Then Perth has its large share of serial rapists who tend to pop up from time to time, I wonder how many of these rapists decide to kill, hopefully WA Police have looked into the backgrounds of all the known rapists in WA, otherwise what the hell is the longest and most expensive police operation actually funding? Seems like its a nice cushy desk job for the elite crop of WA detectives all cashing in on a slice of a seemingly bungled investigation tainted with corrupt officers involvement and many independent reviews headed of course by the WA police themselves.. ridiculous. Will we ever see a coronial inquest? I doubt it, there's too much at stake here, something must have gone horribly wrong in those early years

My guess is mistakes were made early and there was some concealing of bad decisions, even incompetence. I don't buy into corruption though.

If you look at police forces across the globe you'll notice they all have a culture of never admitting mistakes. It's everyone else's fault - particularly the legal system. This sort of culture doesn't promote continuous improvement and that is hard to deny given cases such as Mallard, Micklebergs, and a a documented history of verballing and corruption.

Australian Police forces have shocking cultures that I wouldn't wish upon anybody. Add to that an underpaid job with high stress, ship loads of paperworks, and being surrounded by a high rate of sociopaths because they are attracted to the uniform, the power available to them, continual access to confrontation, and in some cases, access to a gun and a potential chance to kill someone.

 

[bessie]

A question for anyone well versed in serial killer theory;

Is there a break down (as in groupings) of women killers, i.e.

1. Partner killings - crimes of passion, jealousy, bumping the wife to be with young tramp, killing the wife because she showed disrespect by leaving etc
2. One offs - things got out of hand, rejection, maybe a rape, fit of rage, end up in a murder
3. The rapist who kills so he can't be identified
4. The psychopathic killer with no empathy who gets off sexually on killing

Anyone know if any experts group them similar to this?

I look at Wark and think number 3. I look at Morey and think he's number 4.

Here you go. This is rather simplified. I have other material bookmarked that I can post later.

Motives

The motives of serial killers are generally placed into four categories: visionary, mission-oriented, hedonistic and power or control; however, the motives of any given killer may display considerable overlap among these categories.

Visionary

Visionary serial killers suffer from psychotic breaks with reality, sometimes believing they are another person or are compelled to murder by entities such as the Devil or God. The two most common subgroups are "demon mandated" and "God mandated."

Mission-oriented

Mission-oriented killers typically justify their acts as "ridding the world" of a certain type of person perceived as undesirable, such as homosexuals, prostitutes, or people of different ethnicity or religion; however, they are generally not psychotic. Some see themselves as attempting to change society, often to cure a societal ill.

Hedonistic

This type of serial killer seeks thrills and derives pleasure from killing, seeing people as expendable means to this goal. Forensic psychologists have identified three subtypes of the hedonistic killer: "lust", "thrill" and "comfort".

Lust

Sex is the primary motive of lust killers, whether or not the victims are dead, and fantasy plays a large role in their killings. Their sexual gratification depends on the amount of torture and mutilation they perform on their victims. They usually use weapons that require close contact with the victims, such as knives or hands. As lust killers continue with their murders, the time between killings decreases or the required level of stimulation increases, sometimes both.

Thrill

The primary motive of a thrill killer is to induce pain or terror in their victims, which provides stimulation and excitement for the killer. They seek the adrenaline rush provided by hunting and killing victims. Thrill killers murder only for the kill; usually the attack is not prolonged, and there is no sexual aspect. Usually the victims are strangers, although the killer may have followed them for a period of time. Thrill killers can abstain from killing for long periods of time and become more successful at killing as they refine their murder methods. Many attempt to commit the perfect crime and believe they will not be caught.

Comfort (profit)

Material gain and a comfortable lifestyle are the primary motives of comfort killers. Usually, the victims are family members and close acquaintances. After a murder, a comfort killer will usually wait for a period of time before killing again to allow any suspicions by family or authorities to subside. They often use poison, most notably arsenic to kill their victims. Female serial killers are often comfort killers, although not all comfort killers are female.

Power/control

The main objective for this type of serial killer is to gain and exert power over their victim. Such killers are sometimes abused as children, leaving them with feelings of powerlessness and inadequacy as adults. Many power- or control-motivated killers sexually abuse their victims, but they differ from hedonistic killers in that rape is not motivated by lust but as simply another form of dominating the victim.

https://sites.google.com/site/psych...hat-are-the-different-types-of-serial-killers

 

[papertrail]

inside conti captioned to show where I believe the sleeve ends on left arm of woman believed to be JR. Also indicated is what I believe is the jacket JR was holding between her arm and body

I also believe the person on the stairs is a woman with her hair styled in an 'up do'. Her left arm is extended along the balustrade, her right arm is bent with her hand resting on her chest.

 

[delbertGrady]

Are those two photos both of paul clare?

 

[papertrail]

Are those two photos both of paul clare?

Yes they are

 

[Parkie]

Who says it is Paul Clare?

 

[Parkie]

Okay. These cameras at the Conti were on timers right? Switching from one camera to another etc. So why does the Ice box frame & the MM frame by the stairs inside the Conti come up in Flects You Tube Video? Only reason I can come up with is; Is it the case that the inside video was doctored & virtually all footage was deleted/not shown to the public? If timers were changing the camera shots, how does 1/24 being 1/24th of a second of a frame gets shown? 1 /24th being the usual reel film speed frame from what I know. Assuming nothing is changed with VCR recorders frame speeds etc.

 

[Sutton]

I want to post these questions and notes before I forget them.

1. I extracted each frame from the CIA footage and the 1:08 footage. There are six ice machine frames and eight stairway frames.

The only new info I saw (as Parkie said there are 24 frames per second, so this only represents 1/4 and 1/3 of a second, respectively) was the time stamp on the ice machine footage. It's 00:02:36. I will post a frame later when I get to computer.

2. Is the assertion that each camera records for 28 seconds and then the recording switches to a new camera? There are four cameras that we know of:

A. Near the corner of Bay View Tce & Gugeri, facing south (this is the MM footage)
B. Over the double entry doors, facing north towards Gugeri
C. Inside the double entry doors, facing the stairs and main pub area
D. Facing the ice machine

What is the recording order? It cannot go from A to B because that would give us a perfect view of MM's face as he walks away from Jane.

If this 28 second rotation between four cameras was indeed the set-up, that meant only a 25% chance of something being filmed. Also, I know there is a door there and all, but the ice machine camera seems a bit pointless.

Parkie, the only thing I can think of to explain why these frames were left in, was they were accidentally released in the oops, wrong tape release, and then in the rush, they did not get fully removed. Or police are supplying false info, as you said.

 

[Sutton]

Who says it is Paul Clare?

Media. The second photo can be found here:

http://www.stinsonhunter.com/paul-clare-little-hallingbury/

It looks like he got a face transplant. Hard to believe those pics are of the same guy.

 

[Sutton]

inside conti captioned to show where I believe the sleeve ends on left arm of woman believed to be JR. Also indicated is what I believe is the jacket JR was holding between her arm and body

I also believe the person on the stairs is a woman with her hair styled in an 'up do'. Her left arm is extended along the balustrade, her right arm is bent with her hand resting on her chest.

I can see what you mean about Jane holding her jacket over her arm. Thanks for posting that.

 

[elastic]

Guven that the freshest lead we have received is an internal shot of MM im amazed that the invesitgaition has stalled wihte possibly the greatest lead ever disoclosed ever!!! We are looking at a solved case almost without the id


Anyone have a still of MM face as he pokes it out the door. MM or not it is critical!


If MM isnt the CSK he is seriously f#*ked. He is a witness who was.never identified who is quite clearly in the club with ciara. The cops spent billions to figure out what our mate papertrail fibured our by pausing you tube haha we.will.solve this before.our.spastic cops .. I rexkon mm is a cops son or relations, hands.down. This invesigation reeks.of police inolvement

 

[Bartholemeus]

I can see what you mean about Jane holding her jacket over her arm. Thanks for posting that.

It does appear darker. Could also be a hand bag which better suits the angle of the arm/elbow. Can't see the sleeve though. Looks like a bare arm to me.

 

[Bartholemeus]

Guven that the freshest lead we have received is an internal shot of MM im amazed that the invesitgaition has stalled wihte possibly the greatest lead ever disoclosed ever!!! We are looking at a solved case almost without the id


Anyone have a still of MM face as he pokes it out the door. MM or not it is critical!


If MM isnt the CSK he is seriously f#*ked. He is a witness who was.never identified who is quite clearly in the club with ciara. The cops spent billions to figure out what our mate papertrail fibured our by pausing you tube haha we.will.solve this before.our.spastic cops .. I rexkon mm is a cops son or relations, hands.down. This invesigation reeks.of police inolvement

I think we all need a Bex and a lie down.

1. Is this really a lead?
2. We don't know if that is MM. Looks like him. Could be him. But could be someone else.
3. That is highly unlikely to be JR. Would mean Macro are lying. Not unusual in itself but what benefit would they get?
4. The guy who pops his head out. Highly unlikely to be MM. You were pretty hot on this on BF.
5. I know this is websleuths but to suggest anyone on these boards can solve the case from behind their keyboard is fanciful.
6. Kudos to papertrail for identifying this footage but let's put it in perspective; Macro have had this footage from the start. They haven't missed or overlooked it.
7. Any suggestion of police cover up is bordering on nutty. For what you're suggesting might have happened to actually happen is near impossible.
8. I'll humour you and hypothesize that that is MM and JR in the inside footage. So what? What does it change? There's a few questions that need to be answered but it doesn't make a significant difference.

I'd suggest cold showers for some are in order.

 

[Bartholemeus]

If MM isnt the CSK he is seriously f#*ked. He is a witness who was.never identified who is quite clearly in the club with Jane.

Put yourself in his shoes for a moment. He doesn't find out about the footage until 12 years later (they only showed it to the people they identified so he wouldn't have known about it). He sees the footage and either recognises himself or knows he walked past on the night and it dawns on him he was never identified and police had been trying to identify him.

Then he considers LW, PW and SR, particularly Lance Williams. Name and face all over media and linked strongly to this case for over 10 years to date (as of 2008).

That's a pretty compelling reason not to come forward if you're innocent.

 

[Parkie]

Yes I must say well done on seeing that Papertrail. But it looks highly likely that the person seen inside near the stairs in the one frame is the same person who they wanted to speak to who went up to JR standing by the pole outside. And that pic of Paul Clare. Well he lost his hair pretty quick if it is him eh?

 

[elastic]

I think we all need a Bex and a lie down.

1. Is this really a lead?
2. We don't know if that is MM. Looks like him. Could be him. But could be someone else.
3. That is highly unlikely to be JR. Would mean Macro are lying. Not unusual in itself but what benefit would they get?
4. The guy who pops his head out. Highly unlikely to be MM. You were pretty hot on this on BF.
5. I know this is websleuths but to suggest anyone on these boards can solve the case from behind their keyboard is fanciful.
6. Kudos to papertrail for identifying this footage but let's put it in perspective; Macro have had this footage from the start. They haven't missed or overlooked it.
7. Any suggestion of police cover up is bordering on nutty. For what you're suggesting might have happened to actually happen is near impossible.
8. I'll humour you and hypothesize that that is MM and JR in the inside footage. So what? What does it change? There's a few questions that need to be answered but it doesn't make a significant difference.

I'd suggest cold showers for some are in order.

What it shows is that the public are being lied to about the case. How does that help solving the case? The footage was not revealed. They gave no indication MM was inside the venue. Yet we are finding out he was because of a split second frame that Papertrail managed to catch and screenshot for us all to see. Yes that may not be MM pointing his head out the door, oir it maybe, we dont have a good shot to see the facial features and see if he looks similar to the stil photo posted behind the detective. If that is even meant to be an identikit.

I doubt he CSK case is a 'police coverup' but it appears that looking back at the characters who were running the show were infact corrupt and it looks like they have had a detrimental effect on the case in its crucial early stages. Basically they have bungled the case. Now it looks like they are covering up there mistakes by refusing to allow a coronial inquest.

We are never given information about the case. Its one big deep secret for no apparent reason. They had gag orders on news papers publishing about serial killers etc at the time to try and play down the infamy it generated for the serial killer.

What I meant is that I honestly believe that if ALL the evidence was out on the table for the public to see, someone on this very forum would solve the case before the Police did. I doubt they even care about catching the killer, it seems they are more concerned about keeping the case from joe public.

Papertrail has given the public a lead we havent had until now, it is fresh and opens up many possibilities, and also confirms the police have lied about the MM footage. Now what are the reasons for this? Why the need to lie about MM?

I would still like to see if anyone can enhance the face poking his head out the door. would be interesting to see who it was.

I still cannot believe so many earlier rapes around Perth's most affluent suburbs were never investigated. That blows my mind. Which makes me wonder if the earlier reports of a police officers son are true considering how quick the Police were to not only dismiss it, but to imply it was misleading and irrelevant. I wonder if MM is a police officers son, and that is why we don't know anything about him. If he isn't he may still be relevant to the case, he may be our serial rapist, turned serial killer. It would be very easy to fly under the radar if you drove your police dads car around with a dead body packed into the boot. Especially at night. It makes me think their is something more sinister to this case, and a coronial inquest might just bring a few facts the public should know about the case to light.