CO - Jessica Hernandez, 17, killed by police after LEO struck by stolen car

[Fred Hall]

Right here

 

[al66pine]

Fred Hall

Thanks for bringing the update to the thread. Doubt I'll be able to read for a couple days. Glad and other posters are baaaaaaack to join discussion w new official info.

 

[KaaBoom]

<modsnip>We all come here with our own unique experiences and viewpoints. This is mine. So many people want to speak out and be the advocates for criminals like Mike Brown and the Jessica Hernandez so I make no apologies for being the advocate of the LE and first responders and speaking out for them. I can empathize with them. I am tired of the hate and assault on officers and while criminals are defended and honored.

Here is my problem with that. Supreme Court Justice White said it best in Tennessee v. Garner.

White reasoned, the court must weigh the nature of the intrusion of the suspect's Fourth Amendment rights against the government interests which justified the intrusion.

The use of deadly force against a subject is the most intrusive type of seizure possible, because it deprives the suspect of his life, and White held that the state failed to present evidence that its interest in shooting unarmed fleeing suspects outweighs the suspect's interest in his own survival.

Please respect the Constitution. Everybody has got a right to have their day in court. Supporting police officers who violate peoples Constitutional rights by shooting them before they can have a trial, is really not helping anything, and will probably only lead to more hatred and assaults on police officers.

 

[Sillybilly]

Please remember to include links in your post whenever you are quoting directly from a document.

:tyou:

 

[CoolJ]

That last line of the report by the DA really irks me. "It would not have occurred had Hernandez simply complied with lawful police orders."

The price for not complying is not death, Mr. Morrissey.

I do not believe Hernandez' intent was to injure anyone. I believe her intent was to flee.

Never the less, these officers did not know what her intent was, so IMO this was a tragic but justified shooting.

I just wish there was another way to handle these situations.

 

[katydid23]

That last line of the report by the DA really irks me. "It would not have occurred had Hernandez simply complied with lawful police orders."

The price for not complying is not death, Mr. Morrissey.

I do not believe Hernandez' intent was to injure anyone. I believe her intent was to flee.

Never the less, these officers did not know what her intent was, so IMO this was a tragic but justified shooting.

I just wish there was another way to handle these situations.

"The price for not complying is not death, Mr. Morrissey. "


Well, sometimes it does end in death. If someone steals a car, refuses to stop and exit the stolen car, while police are holding up weapons and demanding that one freezes, then YES, the price might be death. Because the police have no idea if the perp behind the wheel is armed, what their intentions are, other than they are not complying and the police are trying to defend themselves while making spilt second decisions.

So YES, imo, the price for not complying, while committing a felony and trying to flee, may indeed be death. JMO

 

[Fred Hall]

That last line of the report by the DA really irks me. "It would not have occurred had Hernandez simply complied with lawful police orders."

The price for not complying is not death, Mr. Morrissey.

I do not believe Hernandez' intent was to injure anyone. I believe her intent was to flee.

Never the less, these officers did not know what her intent was, so IMO this was a tragic but justified shooting.

I just wish there was another way to handle these situations.

In what manner were the officers physically threatened? Cars do not drive sideways, and the ballistic evidence places them both on the left side of the car when they fired.

 

[katydid23]

"It would not have occurred had Hernandez simply complied with lawful police orders."

This statement irks me too. But my frustration is with Jessica, not with the DA, who made the statement. The DA speaks the truth. Jessica made a long list of very poor and dangerous choices that night. She willfully, purposely stole a car while being out on bail for a previous stolen car charge. She drank and got high, drove the stolen car on suspended license, dragged her friends into the crime with her, and when finally caught, refused to accept defeat. She drove straight ahead, right towards a cop aiming his weapon at her car. BAD MOVE. It irks me that people want to blame the cop that she was defying and driving towards, rather than discuss her long laundry list of very bad decisions.

 

[katydid23]

In what manner were the officers physically threatened? Cars do not drive sideways, and the ballistic evidence places them both on the left side of the car when they fired.

Did you read the cop's testimony?

 

[CoolJ]

"The price for not complying is not death, Mr. Morrissey. "


Well, sometimes it does end in death. If someone steals a car, refuses to stop and exit the stolen car, while police are holding up weapons and demanding that one freezes, then YES, the price might be death. Because the police have no idea if the perp behind the wheel is armed, what their intentions are, other than they are not complying and the police are trying to defend themselves while making spilt second decisions.

So YES, imo, the price for not complying, while committing a felony and trying to flee, may indeed be death. JMO

I disagree katy. That is not the price for non-compliance . It may be a result of it. But in this society we are not put to death for non-compliance. That is not why they were justified in shooting her.

The reason that line irks me is because that is how he chose to end his report. A lot of things could have happened to avoid this tragedy. Why not list them all? Why put the focus on that?
You don't get killed for not listening to police.
You get killed for putting their lives in danger. That I can accept.

 

[Fred Hall]

So YES, imo, the price for not complying, while committing a felony and trying to flee, may indeed be death. JMO

sbm
The price of cheating on OJ Simpson was death for Nicole, but that fact didn't make it legal. If the officers had made the above statement to investigators they would have been charged with murder.

 

[CoolJ]

In what manner were the officers physically threatened? Cars do not drive sideways, and the ballistic evidence places them both on the left side of the car when they fired.

I agree they were on the left side of the car. As I was reading the report, I put myself in their position and asked myself if I was in that situation, telling the unknown occupants of a car to stop the car and get out and the response was to back the car up and accelerate, maybe not directly at me, but certainly in very close proximity to me. Yes I would be scared that their intent MAY be to hit me. JMO

 

[Fred Hall]

I agree they were on the left side of the car. As I was reading the report, I put myself in their position and asked myself if I was in that situation, telling the unknown occupants of a car to stop the car and get out and the response was to back the car up and accelerate, maybe not directly at me, but certainly in very close proximity to me. Yes I would be scared that their intent MAY be to hit me. JMO

But they were on the left side of the car when they fired. At that point the car was traveling past them and was physically incapable of striking them, not being a hovercraft.

 

[katydid23]

I disagree katy. That is not the price for non-compliance . It may be a result of it. But in this society we are not put to death for non-compliance. That is not why they were justified in shooting her.

The reason that line irks me is because that is how he chose to end his report. A lot of things could have happened to avoid this tragedy. Why not list them all? Why put the focus on that?
You don't get killed for not listening to police.
You get killed for putting their lives in danger. That I can accept.

Non-compliance is a varying scale. If a cop tells you to put the stolen pack of gum back and you do not comply, you are not at risk of dying. He is not feeling threatened by you.

But if you are behind the wheel of a stolen car, late at night, and the car is full of other people, and cops are aiming weapons at you, and you drive towards them, then you are at risk of dying. You are putting the cops lives at risk and so the price of 'not complying' is death.

It is not always the price of not complying. But if the non-compliant person is in the middle of a felony, is trying to flee, and does so in a way that puts the cops at risk, then that is a possible outcome.

When a fleeing felon does not comply, they are often putting the cops lives at risk. Or that of the public. And the price of that is sometimes death.

 

[katydid23]

sbm
The price of cheating on OJ Simpson was death for Nicole, but that fact didn't make it legal. If the officers had made the above statement to investigators they would have been charged with murder.

That is not the same thing. Nicole did not present a physical danger to OJ.

 

[CoolJ]

But they were on the left side of the car when they fired. At that point the car was traveling past them and was physically incapable of striking them, not being a hovercraft.

Front-left of the car for the initial shots fired. In a matter of less than two seconds I am not sure how much thinking can be done. They had to react extremely quickly. They were literally right on top(next too) the car. I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt here that they were scared for the officer closer to the front that he could have been hit. But we can't all agree. We all see it differently.
I even pretty much agree with katy this time and she is still mad at me. lol

 

[Fred Hall]

. . . and you drive towards them . . .

sbm
The car may have driven in the general direction of the officer initially, but he fired when the car was passing him and no longer posed a threat.

 

[margarita25]

(O/T, just popping in here in case anyone (local or otherwise) missed this thread and might be interested. We could use some help over there.

Possible Serial Shooter Has Colorado Drivers on Edge (now updated to include cyclists and pedestrians )
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...e-Serial-Shooter-Has-Colorado-Drivers-on-Edge

Tia--carry on!)

 

[CoolJ]

Non-compliance is a varying scale. If a cop tells you to put the stolen pack of gum back and you do not comply, you are not at risk of dying. He is not feeling threatened by you.

But if you are behind the wheel of a stolen car, late at night, and the car is full of other people, and cops are aiming weapons at you, and you drive towards them, then you are at risk of dying. You are putting the cops lives at risk and so the price of 'not complying' is death.

It is not always the price of not complying. But if the non-compliant person is in the middle of a felony, is trying to flee, and does so in a way that puts the cops at risk, then that is a possible outcome.

When a fleeing felon does not comply, they are often putting the cops lives at risk. Or that of the public. And the price of that is sometimes death.

I am not saying what Morrissey said wasn't true. I am saying it bothers me that it's the only solution he offers for avoiding this tragedy and he emphasizes it by ending his report with that line.
It's almost like a warning for the citizens . "Do whatever police tell you to do, or else"

 

[KaaBoom]

This picture says it all. Every single shot came from the side of the car. Which means that they did not meet the standards of Tennessee v. Garner. This was clearly not a justifiable use of deadly force.