CO - Jessica Hernandez, 17, killed by police after LEO struck by stolen car

[katydid23]

link:

http://www.coloradonewsday.com/news...-of-eluding-officer-and-resisting-arrest.html

State troopers cited Jessica Hernandez January 1 for doing 80mph in 55mph zone

Citation claims the girl was resisting arrest in a way that risked serious injury to state trooper

State troopers cited Hernandez January 1 for speeding down a highway north of Denver in her mother's car after the girl's driver's license had been revoked.

The citation shows Hernandez was driving 80mph in a 55mph zone, and the trooper noted that she was resisting arrest in a way that risked serious injury to him or others. It does not provide other details of the case.

-{ this article just says that she was driving her mother's car. But others had said she 'took' the car w/out permission since she had no license.]

 

[KaaBoom]

No legal reason. He was infuriated that she had defied him, and he didn't want her to get away with it.

Yep, I think thats it. She disrespected his authority, so she had to die for it.

 

[katydid23]

link:

http://www.coloradonewsday.com/news...-of-eluding-officer-and-resisting-arrest.html

State troopers cited Jessica Hernandez January 1 for doing 80mph in 55mph zone

Citation claims the girl was resisting arrest in a way that risked serious injury to state trooper

State troopers cited Hernandez January 1 for speeding down a highway north of Denver in her mother's car after the girl's driver's license had been revoked.

The citation shows Hernandez was driving 80mph in a 55mph zone, and the trooper noted that she was resisting arrest in a way that risked serious injury to him or others. It does not provide other details of the case.

-{ this article just says that she was driving her mother's car. But others had said she 'took' the car w/out permission since she had no license.]

 

[Fred Hall]

Officer Jordan said the Honda was going much faster than during the earlier forward and backward movements it had made in the alley. When describing the car accelerating toward him, he said: “... An image that keeps coming back to me is the -- almost the entire hood and the -- the driver’s side light. And so it was -- it was no time....” The Honda came within “inches” of him.

“And as it’s coming at me, at some point, I had hit the car...with my hand pushing away, with part of...my hand. I don’t remember exactly where in front of the car but I remember being in front of the car and getting...to the side and pushing like this and I could still feel -- [crying] --

... I could still feel that the car...was coming and I felt like it was coming toward me and I’m -- pushing away, and -- and at the same time, I’m...going like this [demonstrating pushing away with his left hand] and I’m thinking that any minute I’m going to get pushed up against the background and I’m going to get tumbled through and I’m done.
... I was thinking I was going to die.”

When asked what the “background” was that he feared being pushed up against, he answered: “It was the...fence or the brick. I don’t know exactly where it was. I knew it was right behind me and the car was right in front of me.”

He described shooting, having only his right hand on the gun, when he was at the front fender on the driver side, pushing away from the car with his left hand:

“I waited till I had to hit the car away and I’m thinking now I’m going to go -- I’m going to get squished and -- and killed, and right then is when I fired. And...I’d be surprised if my gun wasn’t touching the driver’s side -- the window.”



I waited till I had to hit the car away and I’m thinking now I’m going to go -- I’m going to get squished and -- and killed, and right then is when I fired. And...I’d be surprised if my gun wasn’t touching the driver’s side -- the window.


He was afraid of being squished up against the wall. Looking at how the car ended up, I can see why.

The only way he could have gotten pinched between the car and the wall is if he had run alongside the car as the lane narrowed. When they fired the shots there was plenty of space, as evidenced by the fact that the car passed both of them.

 

[katydid23]

If I caught a thief driving off in my car and fired into it from these exact same angles, I would be charged with murder.

Correct. But you are not a cop. Different legal rules entirely. If we are going to expect them to wear a gun and a badge, and take on the gang members and thieves and drug dealers every day and night, then they have to have more leeway, to protect themselves. Who would take on the job if not?

 

[Fred Hall]

Correct. But you are not a cop. Different legal rules entirely. If we are going to expect them to wear a gun and a badge, and take on the gang members and thieves and drug dealers every day and night, then they have to have more leeway, to protect themselves. Who would take on the job if not?

Practicallythey have more leeway, but I think that Police Officers are technically subject to the same laws that everyone else is. But I can't be sure — I'm not a lawyer. Surely if these officers were acting in defense of their own lives, I would be able to claim the same legal justification for firing the same shots in the same situation. Or doesn't it work that way?

 

[katydid23]

Yep, I think thats it. She disrespected his authority, so she had to die for it.

I don't know everything about what happened in this case. But one thing I do know, for certain.

I know that when my son is out on the street, his over riding concern, is getting back home at the end of his shift to his wife and baby. He could give a chit if someone disses him. But if they drive their car at him at a high speed, while being told to stop, then that will get his attention. Not because they defied orders, but because they endangered his life with their own stupidity.

We will never agree on this, because in your view, these are cold blooded killers that shot a girl because she defied orders. But in my heart, knowing what I know from the officers close to me, it was not about that at all. JMO

 

[katydid23]

Practicallythey have more leeway, but I think that Police Officers are technically subject to the same laws that everyone else is. But I can't be sure — I'm not a lawyer. Surely if these officers were acting in defense of their own lives, I would be able to claim the same legal justification for firing the same shots in the same situation. Or doesn't it work that way?

No, it doesn't work that way. Cops are charged with protecting the public. As such, they have leeway to use force in ways that you and I cannot. And because their badge are essentially 'targets' , they are given legal benefit of the doubt when they need to defend themselves.

 

[KaaBoom]

The sad thing about this is that if the cops had just kept their cool, and blocked the car in. Then negotiated with the girls to surrender, everything could have worked out for the best. The girls would have gone to juvenile hall, and the car owner would have gotten his car back with no bullet holes in it. Instead of that they ended up with a dead girl, a grieving family, a car owner with no car, and tax payers out millions of dollars for the homicide investigation and wrongful death lawsuit that is sure to follow.

 

[Fred Hall]

But if they drive their car at him at a high speed, while being told to stop, then that will get his attention.

sbm
We don't know how fast the car was traveling when the first officer decided to shoot, but according to the report it was below 11.21mph. This figure of 11.21mph is apparently the speed the car would have reached if it had been gunned like a drag racer all the way from the time it was put into drive up until it hit the brick wall, a distance of 16 feet. The driver was shot and fell to the side prior to the car striking the wall, so the speed would have been less. I suspect substantially less, probably closer to walking speed.

 

[katydid23]

The sad thing about this is that if the cops had just kept their cool, and blocked the car in. Then negotiated with the girls to surrender, everything could have worked out for the best. The girls would have gone to juvenile hall, and the car owner would have gotten his car back with no bullet holes in it. Instead of that they ended up with a dead girl, a grieving family, a car owner with no car, and tax payers out millions of dollars for the homicide investigation and wrongful death lawsuit that is sure to follow.

That is probably true. Sometimes cops make poor decisions in the middle of stressful calls. I think they thought she was blocked in. I think they were surprised that she tried to fit between the SUV in front of her and the wall. The cops had to scramble then and it went sideways.

But I would like to see some of the cop's biggest critics do the job themselves or a month or so. I'd like to see how they'd deal with sudden emergency shoot outs or surprises like this. There is always going to be room for criticism with 20/20 hindsight.

Jessica tweeted that she 'knew' she was going to die at the hands of the police. We posted those tweets on this thread back at the start. I think she knew what might happen. Who starts their car and begins to drive away while cops are pointing their weapons and yelling FREEZE?

 

[Fred Hall]

No, it doesn't work that way. Cops are charged with protecting the public. As such, they have leeway to use force in ways that you and I cannot. And because their badge are essentially 'targets' , they are given legal benefit of the doubt when they need to defend themselves.

But I have the right to use lethal force in defense of my life. If these officers lives truly were in danger in this situation, my life would have been equally in danger, and thus I would have been justified in making identically angled shots.

 

[katydid23]

sbm
We don't know how fast the car was traveling when the first officer decided to shoot, but according to the report it was below 11.21mph. This figure of 11.21mph is apparently the speed the car would have reached if it had been gunned like a drag racer all the way from the time it was put into drive up until it hit the brick wall, a distance of 16 feet. The driver was shot and fell to the side prior to the car striking the wall, so the speed would have been less. I suspect substantially less, probably closer to walking speed.

If someone is gunning their engine, coming toward you, and you have a brick wall behind you, you would be scared too.

 

[Fred Hall]

. . . wrongful death lawsuit that is sure to follow.

sbm
Which is going to be a slam dunk. As always, the many will pay for the actions of a few.

 

[Fred Hall]

If someone is gunning their engine, coming toward you, and you have a brick wall behind you, you would be scared too.

But this is not what happened. The car was not coming towards the officer, but past him, when he fired.

 

[katydid23]

But I have the right to use lethal force in defense of my life. If these officers lives truly were in danger in this situation, my life would have been equally in danger, and thus I would have been justified in making identically angled shots.

No. Because you would not be legally able to stand at the car with your weapon raised and order the driver to get out of the car. That right there changes the situation considerably. The cops have their guns raised and they know it is a stolen car, so think it might be gang members, and think they are probably armed. That puts the cops on edge, and ready to defend themselves right there. So they are saying OUT of the CAR....and the driver starts the car...and is headed towards one of the officers....HE IS LEGALLY able to shoot right then, but is delayed by the urgent need to escape the car and push to the side.


LOOK AT THE SITUATION^^^^^^ He is facing danger of the unknown...are they gangmembers? CAR JACKERS? Are they armed? Why are they driving at me? We are pointing guns at them and they are coming at me...

Why would a jury find him guilty of shooting under that split second of a decision to save himself? I don't think they would.

 

[Fred Hall]

That is probably true. Sometimes cops make poor decisions in the middle of stressful calls. I think they thought she was blocked in. I think they were surprised that she tried to fit between the SUV in front of her and the wall. The cops had to scramble then and it went sideways.

But I would like to see some of the cop's biggest critics do the job themselves or a month or so. I'd like to see how they'd deal with sudden emergency shoot outs or surprises like this. There is always going to be room for criticism with 20/20 hindsight.

Jessica tweeted that she 'knew' she was going to die at the hands of the police. We posted those tweets on this thread back at the start. I think she knew what might happen. Who starts their car and begins to drive away while cops are pointing their weapons and yelling FREEZE?

Unarmed, nonviolent juvenile delinquents who don't want to be arrested, apparently.
The report contains this exchange between one of the passengers and an investigator:

BSD also indicates that the friends in the car were screaming for Hernandez to try to get
away, to drive away.
Q: …What did you say to Jessie?
A: I was like, “Drive, Jessie, drive. Go!” Like, everybody was screaming at her to go

 

[CoolJ]

The sad thing about this is that if the cops had just kept their cool, and blocked the car in. Then negotiated with the girls to surrender, everything could have worked out for the best. The girls would have gone to juvenile hall, and the car owner would have gotten his car back with no bullet holes in it. Instead of that they ended up with a dead girl, a grieving family, a car owner with no car, and tax payers out millions of dollars for the homicide investigation and wrongful death lawsuit that is sure to follow.

I can agree with this for sure. I think there are better ways to handle these situations. Sometimes I wonder if these days out of fear for LE safety (or maybe even other nefarious reasons), Academies are teaching militaryesque escalation techniques to take immediate control of possible dangerous situations. It does seem their reaction times are getting much, much quicker with regards to using deadly force. Maybe they are just on edge, generally speaking.

 

[Fred Hall]

No. Because you would not be legally able to stand at the car with your weapon raised and order the driver to get out of the car. That right there changes the situation considerably. The cops have their guns raised and they know it is a stolen car, so think it might be gang members, and think they are probably armed. That puts the cops on edge, and ready to defend themselves right there. So they are saying OUT of the CAR....and the driver starts the car...and is headed towards one of the officers....HE IS LEGALLY able to shoot right then, but is delayed by the urgent need to escape the car and push to the side.


LOOK AT THE SITUATION^^^^^^ He is facing danger of the unknown...are they gangmembers? CAR JACKERS? Are they armed? Why are they driving at me? We are pointing guns at them and they are coming at me...

Why would a jury find him guilty of shooting under that split second of a decision to save himself? I don't think they would.

What if I didn't draw until the car started to move? If the simple fact of the car being in motion poses a threat to the life of a police officer, surely it would threaten mine too? Would I not have the justification to then draw and fire into the car? All this is hypothetical of course, as I don't own a gun

 

[katydid23]

But I have the right to use lethal force in defense of my life. If these officers lives truly were in danger in this situation, my life would have been equally in danger, and thus I would have been justified in making identically angled shots.

Let me try again because I am tired. LOL

You cannot compare your situation as a civilian. YOU could not see a stolen car and then take out a gun and demand the driver set- out of the car. You cannot legally do that.

But an officer is EXPECTED to do that and REQUIRED to do so. WE pay him to walk up to that car, and with weapons drawn, order the perps out of the car.

That ^^^ puts the cops in a situation that is dangerous and potentially deadly for them. They don't know who is in the car, what weapons they might have, what INTENTIONS they might have to harm LE....etc

So that gives them a latitude that you and I do not have. WE REQUIRE THEM to engage with dangerous felons. But in exchange for that requirement, we give them certain leeway, because they will be in shootouts and knife fights and brawls, and we have to give them the benefit of the doubt.