CO - Jessica Ridgeway, 10, Westminster, 5 Oct. 2012 - #22

[Elley Mae]

http://www.9news.com/news/article/296904/339/Suspect-in-Ridgeway-case-charged-as-adult

"It's not the number of charges that have to be difficult for Sigg, it's the seriousness," Robinson said. "In addition to having to spend at least 40 calendar years in prison, if Sigg is convicted of any of the charges involving the Ketner Reservoir crime, then those ... can be consecutive time on top of that."

 

[SapphireSteel]

Lots and lots and lots of people have mental illness at some point in their life.

For a lot of people (me) luckily it takes the relatively mild form, depression, which is easily treated and managed.

For others it is not so easy, they have paranoid delusions, visions, hear voices, all sorts of terrible stuff.

These people are overwhelmingly non violent...or, only violent to themselves.

They too can live a normal life but it takes a whole lot more medical intervention and managing to do so.

There is a section of mental illness also called Narcissistic Personality Disorder, NPD. We ALL know someone with this...or hypochondria, or borderline personality disorder, or even psycopathy or sociopathy.

It is very, very common.

What is not common, is to become a raping, dismembering hunter.

If ARS was truly "mentally ill" as we commonly define it, he would have shown a great many signs of his illness. His previous behaviour would have been bizarre, not fairly normal and productive as it seems so far. He would have likely been hearing voices, perhaps talking back to them, doing other strange acts, and be clearly in the grip of a some sort of episode.

This did not happen.

He is a perfectly sane teenage boy who just happens to have decided to become a rapist and murderer. He seems to show no emotion about the whole thing apart from boredom and possibly annoyance at being caught.

If he does have a mental illness as such, it would fall under the banner of sociopathy. I imagine he was just born wired wrong, and maybe it didn't come out till his teens...or maybe we will find the sociopathic behaviour was there from infancy.

:dunno:

There is more and more research indicating that this tendency can be a symptom of brain damage.

If one or another parent used a lot of recreational drugs, even before he was conceived, he could have inherited damaged DNA.

Either way, he needs to be kept out of society permanently. He has lost his right to be "one of us".

But we really need to stop using the blanket "mentally ill" when discussing this freak...it's offensive to a lot of people.

 

[claudicici]

I feel like a lot of what people are mentioning as warning signs and/or possible contributing factors and/or "pieces of the puzzle" are things that I myself have done or experienced. Never snuff or torture , but definitely and some that, looking back, makes me mildly uncomfortable (sorry if this is too personal and I haven't watched any in years upon years). My parents let me watch R rated movies when I was a kid-they never restricted that stuff. I remember watching Texas Chainsaw Massacre with my Mom when I was like, 8. I listened to some of "that" music. I have played RPG. Weird obsession with death that lasted most of my teenage years. Dabbled in drugs. I was abused as a kid.
However, I never killed anyone, life is precious to me, and I cried yesterday when I accidentally ran over a possum. Like, even during the weird teenage years where I was a bit...wild I still felt and loved and cared and...was human.
I guess what I am getting at is what is different between me and him or him and any other weird unsupervised watching "dark" teenager out there? Mental illness? Was I born with a soul and he wasn't? What made me want to hurt myself (never others) but made him want to hurt others? Was he broken in just the "right" ways to make him into a monster? Are some people just evil? Did he hit his head as a kid making him unable to feel?
I am rambling and not making sense, but no explanation that I have heard completely satisfies my question of why the hell a 17 year old kid would do what he did to a beautiful little girl and then be like, whatever about it in court. Just does not compute.

your teenage years sound like mine as well.....I believe Siggs is a Sociopath and we are not.No matter how much and violence we are exposed to we will always understand and consider how another person feels.We do not want to hurt someone to try to see if it may bring us "joy".

 

[CHERIE.T]

What the heck would a 17 year old or let's say 19 year old by the end of his trial, going into prison with 40 years. What would he be when he was released? I don't think there's a known cure for what he did. Release him? How could you? jmo

:seeya:
I don't think there is a cure for this type madness. Imoo he should get life without parole. I wonder if being locked up would make his cravings even worse?Imo

 

[SapphireSteel]

I would like to know what sort of efforts LE put in to finding the Kettner rapist.

Did they figure out exactly what chemicals were used?

If so, did they figure out exactly who could access them, that lived locally?

Did they look through nearby cctv, trying to identify number plates of vehicles?

Or did they just say, Too Hard, She Got Away, It Wasn't Bad Enough To Investigate?

Did they also react like that to the local pets being sawn in half?

I'm not saying anyone could have forseen this, but there were warnings put out by the schools regarding attempted abductions. What exactly were LE doing about those?

Not giving kids lessons on safety apparently. <modsnip>.

:dunno:

 

[CHERIE.T]

Yes, I agree with your points, if you think about it, the fact of the crime is not in dispute, it is only the penalty. His defense has an incentive to get him out as some point in his life, or at least have the possibility of getting out 40 years down the road, after assuming years and years of (fruitless, i believe, in this case) mental treatment.

We forget too that he may have been involved in either than 1st attack on the jogger or the little boy attempt. If the first jogger is linked to him, he was only 15.

I do not think the judge will want to take a chance of trying the JR case w the jogger bc there could be too much of a risk that if there is some legal issue w the case it could mess w everything. Plus I think it would be very prejudicial to AS to try the Jogger case at the same time. If you hear of the JR case there is no doubt you would find him guilty of the JR case. But if you JUST hear the jogger case you might think it was only an attempted rape. Even if they have evidence of the rag that still would not show murder. They probably just have the joggers account of the rag. I was really surprised they charged him w attempted murder bc I think if they would have arrested him in May when the jogger attack happened they would NOT have charged him with that. They only charged him w that bc of JR. As a matter of criminal law that probably is not right.

I think I heard this on Tricia's radio show but there is also the remote potential that the state could challenge what the Supreme Court said about not giving minors the death penalty. There is no question that had he been born 4 months later the state would have tried for the death penalty. How is it fair to apply the death penalty if someone committing the same crime to different standards just bc of thei birthday? What if he commits the crime a day before 18th birthday?

I doubt the state would try to raise it bc it would be very complicated procedurally and maybe not even possible (CO would have to change its statute and it probably would not apply to him so I do not think they could do that). But perhaps his case could change things for the future so that future teenagers who commit horrible crimes like this ( like the DC sniper too) can get death.

Legally he cannot be sentenced to life as a mandatory sentence but he will get life after the judge raises all the factors. The problem is that life in Colorado is only 40 years so unless CO changes their statute, he gets out in 40 years unless they can find more crimes to charge him with. So they got to find more stuff to add another 20 or 30 years. Indeed, even then, w life expectancy being what it is, he might get out in his 70s or 80s. They really have to find 2 crimes where he can serve 2 separate life terms to be on the safe side. I doubt the jogger case would be sufficient for a life term of 40 years.

Probably his lawyers got him zipped up on that jogger case. They will try to get confession thrown out bc they will not want the jogger confession in...especially if the physical evidence is not too strong. Absent the JR murder, all they got is someone grabbing someone in a public park in the middle of the day and putting a cloth over them. Still a crime, but absent the eyewitness and whatever link they found bw jogger and JR it is not a lot to go on especially if confession is thrown out. The link could be the cross, but if JR does not come in it won't matter. Also I wonder if jogger was able to identify him in a lineup. She never made a sketch so I wonder how well she got a look on him and whether she could identify him.

:goodpost:
Yellow, this a really good post.

 

[GrainneDhu]

The sanity definition seems to vary widely, depending on the law ... and that's varies too.

It seems to me that right from wrong is too simplistic in terms of determining mental illness. The man that stood at the top of the clock tower and shot university students with a scope and rifle was mentally ill, he had a brain tumor. Bundy also seems quite mentally ill, yet he understood right from wrong.

I agree that the legal standard is too simplistic. However, it is what it is.

I looked up the Colorado law on the insanity defence and found that it is really, really strict: the defendant has to prove that they suffered from a mental illness at the time of the crime(s) but it cannot be a drug induced mental illness (so, in the unlikely event that Sigg tried a dose of bath salts before each crime, he would not qualify) and then the defendant has to prove that they did not know right from wrong at the time of the incident(s).

The easiest explanation for this layperson to follow was here:

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way...s-make-insanity-defense-hard-for-colo-suspect

So Colorado in effect takes M'Naghten a step further by requiring the defendant to prove they had a mental illness that was not drug induced.

Where mental illness comes into play is in the determination of whether the defendant is capable of assisting in their own defence. This is not a high bar to clear, since people who were clearly mentally retarded have been found competent to stand trial.

So in Colorado, it is possible to be simultaneously mentally ill but legally sane.

 

[LittleMissContrary]

I agree with you. There are a couple of possibilities in terms of mental illness and exposure to violence/:

no mental illness, no exposure to --> low risk
no mental illness, exposure to --> low risk
mental illness, no exposure to --> low risk
mental illness, exposure to --> high risk

Only those with mental illness and exposure to could evolve into the type of person that we see in Austin Sigg, but there must be other factors.

BBM
I do not think this is a valid statement.

People do commit, and have committed crimes of this nature for as long as hominids have been roaming the planet.

In the absence of , the mind is a creative tool. The only exists because someone imagined the scenarios and decided to manifest it through film.

 

[FrayedKnot]

Charlie had a seriously terrible childhood and his run in with "Boyschool" was probably what broke him as a human. Ed I think had sexual "things" with his mom. The rest though, debatable because none of them do tell the whole truth. Just running off of what you said not debating it lol

Jeffery Dahmer's father has said that Jeffery's childhood was chaotic and troubling. He and Jeffery's mother had a rough marriage and somehow both parents moved out of the home when Jeffery was a teenager and he was left alone. Jeffery Dahmer often spoke of making his victims into zombies who would never leave him.

Ted Bundy's mother was a teen when she had him, ad unmarried which was rather scandalous for the day. It was also speculated that her own father may have been Ted's bio dad. In any case, Ted was raised by his rather harsh and abusive grandparents and was told his mother was his elder sister until the age of 9 or so.(9). His mom did marry and raise him with his stepdad Johnny Bundy who adopted Ted, but she was already an alcoholic and unstable.

Both of those stories of traumatic childhoods have been cooborated by other family members and are not just the accounts given by the killers, themselves.

I may have botched some facts tho, as I am going from my rather spotty memory and haven't had enough coffee! :lol:

Oh! Also, with Gein, I think his mother was a religious zealot who actually repeatedly told Ed and his brother how filthy and evil they were and how sex and women were unclean and unholy. Odd that neither man ever married. (Not!) It is suspected that Ed is also the one who shot his brother whilst hunting.

 

[Foxfire]

http://localtvkdvr.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/people-v-sigg-chargingdocument.pdf

Charging Documents; People vs Austin Reed Sigg

 

[catswhiskers]

Ok this has bothered me ever since AS was first arrested ... soon after there was an newspaper article that said that a "senior investigative reporter" confirmed that AS had undergone counselling for addiction. Not that I am doubting that it is very likely, but I wonder where this information came from? Certainly not his parents (I imagine - hardly seems like information you would rush out and blab about to the press just after your son's arrest) and I assume confidentiality would prevent any legitimate counsellor from speaking to the media either.
So a senior investigative reporter can confirm their own facts? It has just surprised me that the element has become such a focus just on the say so of that one reporter's allegations.

Again - not defending AS at all. I am glad the prosecutors have managed to put together such a long list of charges - looks like they are covering all bases.

Jessica was such a happy looking child - I find myself still clicking through her photos whenever someone posts a link to a gallery. Threads and threads ago someone posted a comment about how all the pictures sort of give us a glimpse into the young woman she was becoming, which was exactly what I had been thinking at the time - it's all just so sad.

 

[atthelake]

I don't know about Colorado in particular but in most states, the question of mental illness is limited to the legal definition of sanity: did the perpetrator know right from wrong at the time of the act?

I have no doubt that Sigg meets the legal standard of sanity. I also have no doubt that he's mentally ill.

Not here in Georgia. Legally sane or insane goes to understanding right/wrong and understanding chages, yet can be prosecuted and same jail time if found mentally ill. Being mentally ill does not get you off, just gives opportunity for treatment. Example here lately was the trial of Hemy Neuman in the Dunwoody daycare murder where he was legally sane, but was convicted as gulty and mentally ill. He got life without parole earlier this year.

 

[DecemberSunshine]

This is what I'd like to know.

Was ARS a lonely, brooding outcast as some reports suggest, or was he part of a peer group as the court attendances would indicate?

I have read reports of him staring down and frightening little girls while he was with friends.

I personally suspect he has one or more accomplices.

Which is it sleuthers? Is he a charismatic guy or a lonely misfit?

:dunno:

http://sociopathicstyle.com/traits/classic.htm

I need to hear more history. He is so young I'm not sure how much history we might hear. However, I do believe all of this begins even before the age of 15, and slowly but surely manifests itself. And those that live with these people adjust, trying to reconcile the behaviors that are off. Been there done that. Unsettling...

Numbers 12 & 18

12. EARLY BEHAVIOR PROBLEMS -- a variety of behaviors prior to age 13, including lying, theft, cheating, vandalism, bullying, sexual activity, fire-setting, glue-sniffing, alcohol use, and running away from home.

18. JUVENILE DELINQUENCY -- behavior problems between the ages of 13-18; mostly behaviors that are crimes or clearly involve aspects of antagonism, exploitation, aggression, manipulation, or a callous, ruthless tough-mindedness.

IMO- addiction @ 15 would fall in between here somewhere.

 

[human]

here is the famous Harlow's monkey studies which cannot be replicated today because it would be considered unethical to do that to animals.

But, it clearly shows the importance of nurturing.

http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~adoption/studies/HarlowMLE.htm

 

[nursebeeme]

warning and moderator note: everyone please stop discussing facebook pages and social media that are not allowed in this case. It may be a good time to go back and review our rules on social media and what you may and may not post about and link to. (for those who have not read the rules: YES this means you cannot discuss the facebook page you all have been discussing for the last several pages)

 

[JBean]

Please do not bring other forum or FB issues here to WS.
No forum wars or back and forth at other sites.

If you cannot link it it is not open for discussion.

Thanks

 

[Hatfield]

Totally agree!

Just want to thank you and others for sharing your experiences and helping us all try to better understand something that seems to have no rational answer.

I get really conflicted about a case like this and this person.

On one hand, I want to shelter myself and shelter others, and just want the person eliminated entirely off the face of the earth with no care or thoughts about him.

On the other hand, we know there has to be something abnormal about hiim, otherwise there would be millions of people like him going around the country doing similar evil things like he did. Thankfully, there are VERY VERY FEW like him.

I don't understand, and a big part of me does not want to understand, although I realize if society does make progress towards identifying and maybe controlling people like this, it may prevent similar atrocities in the future.

One thing I do feel strongly about is that we have to make certain this person can never hurt another person ever again. One way or another.

Anyway, thank you and others for your excellent points.

 

[tlcya]

Ok this has bothered me ever since AS was first arrested ... soon after there was an newspaper article that said that a "senior investigative reporter" confirmed that AS had undergone counselling for addiction. Not that I am doubting that it is very likely, but I wonder where this information came from? Certainly not his parents (I imagine - hardly seems like information you would rush out and blab about to the press just after your son's arrest) and I assume confidentiality would prevent any legitimate counsellor from speaking to the media either.
So a senior investigative reporter can confirm their own facts? It has just surprised me that the element has become such a focus just on the say so of that one reporter's allegations.

Again - not defending AS at all. I am glad the prosecutors have managed to put together such a long list of charges - looks like they are covering all bases.

Jessica was such a happy looking child - I find myself still clicking through her photos whenever someone posts a link to a gallery. Threads and threads ago someone posted a comment about how all the pictures sort of give us a glimpse into the young woman she was becoming, which was exactly what I had been thinking at the time - it's all just so sad.

good point, where did this unnamed senior investigative reporter get his/her info and has it been vetted? I know at this point other MSM sources are now quoting this info as fact as well, all based off the original "scoop" but since the public can't (rightly) access mental health records we cannot verify. Has anyone seen any articles which actually confirm this information via family member, LE, authorities?

TIA to anyone who knows or can provide a link.

 

[nursebeeme]

Review social media rules here:

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65798"]Rules Etiquette & Information - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]


examples of acceptable social media you may link to and discuss: official find pages, LE social media, main stream media social media. If you have a question about discussing one that is not listed above pm a moderator before posting it or discussing it. (and the one that was being discussed for the last four pages is not allowed... just an fyi)

:tos:

 

[palaminodee]

I watched a show on this teen killer last night on TV
about Andrew Conley, he also was 17 1/2. They interviewed him in prison, showed no remorse or emotion during the trial and in the interview.
BBM
Conley said he had fantasized about killing people since he was in eighth grade and said he wanted to be like the fictional television serial killer Dexter from the Showtime series with the same name

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/10/15/teen-killed-brother-face-life-prison/#ixzz2AtAnBOBk