CO - Jessica Ridgeway, 10, Westminster, 5 Oct. 2012 - #23

[otto]

A big thanks, Eireannach -- there's nothing like having one's actual boots on the ground, so to speak. Your point about her hood was a good one, too.

And how long would it take to quietly & quickly walk up behind her, your car close with maybe the door open, to put your hand or a rag or duct tape in your hand up to her mouth & nose, grab her and put her in the car? 10 seconds or less? Make sure the child-lock is ON so that she can't open the back door (and if she was drugged, she'd be out).

Did he follow her home one day, or watch her leave for school one day & plot out just the spot where he would grab her? It's possible.

Your scenario makes a lot of sense to me. And it's so darn sad.

I think it's quite possible. I've looked at the route from the Austin Sigg home to Austin's first stop (brother's school) to Austin's Mortuary school, and I can't see any reason why Austin would be on Jessica's street ... yet, as he drove past her, he was right away turning around to kidnap, assault, murder and dismember her ... grab her from behind with that intention. He had it all planned out and perhaps it would have been a different child if it hadn't been Jessica, perhaps Jessica was the first target ... hard to say ... but there's no doubt that he would have continued if he had gotten away with this murder, just like he did after the Ketner Lake Park abduction ... he got away with it, but left DNA behind at the attempted rape (I think charges related to the kidnapper include attempted sexual assault ... need a link to the charges ... anyone?).

Austin Sigg strikes me as the same type of person as those known to be sociopaths, like Russell Williams and the Japanese millionaire that drugged and dismembered British and Austalian girls after meeting them in the hostess bars ... dangerous people ... charming, disarming, deadly.

 

[Kat]

Naw isn't going to happen. In order to give him a fair trial and adequate representation they have to try to get it put back in juvenile court.

But given the seriousness (I agree with the Law Prof. quoted in the article) of his crimes it's not going to happen.

Which is good they are trying to do this because it means that the conviction when it happens will be even stronger. JMHO

 

[SapphireSteel]

No worries SS (as they say here on the island).

There are WS members that focus on different aspects of crimes.

Looking at offender pysch profile is one.

(I like to intently watch the trials myself!)

thanks for the doc.

I always feel that all aspects are like brush strokes on a painting.

Little splashes of random colour that make no sense at all on their own, until you put them together in the right way, stand back, and find you have the Mona Lisa.

In the case of ARS, news that he is attempting to be tried as a juvenile shows that someone on his defence team feels he may have an "excuse" for what he did. He will be either attempting to plead insanity or blaming some environmental or health factor (mercury fillings, anti-depressants, whatever) and trying to get a sympathy vote. Poor little ARS.

None of the song and dance can negate or justify for one second what he's done and it's going to make me sick to watch them try.

:sick:

 

[enzeder]

I think it's quite possible. I've looked at the route from the Austin Sigg home to Austin's first stop (brother's school) to Austin's Mortuary school, and I can't see any reason why Austin would be on Jessica's street ... yet, as he drove past her, he was right away turning around to kidnap, assault, murder and dismember her ... grab her from behind with that intention. He had it all planned out and perhaps it would have been a different child if it hadn't been Jessica, perhaps Jessica was the first target ... hard to say ... but there's no doubt that he would have continued if he had gotten away with this murder, just like he did after the Ketner Lake Park abduction ... he got away with it, but left DNA behind at the attempted rape (I think charges related to the kidnapper include attempted sexual assault ... need a link to the charges ... anyone?).

Austin Sigg strikes me as the same type of person as those known to be sociopaths, like Russell Williams and the Japanese millionaire that drugged and dismembered British and Austalian girls after meeting them in the hostess bars ... dangerous people ... charming, disarming, deadly.

I've checked out the areas you mentioned, more than a few times, using Google aerial and street view and there was absolutely no reason for AS to be anywhere near Jessica's route to school i.e. Moore Street/107th Ave mentioned in her flyer. imo

 

[nikb]

Naw isn't going to happen. In order to give him a fair trial and adequate representation they have to try to get it put back in juvenile court.

But given the seriousness (I agree with the Law Prof. quoted in the article) of his crimes it's not going to happen.

Which is good they are trying to do this because it means that the conviction when it happens will be even stronger. JMHO

BBM yeah, I agree with you. It still makes me so upset every time it looks like anything even might minimize his sentence, but on the same hand I'm glad they're doing everything legally (IMO) to keep the case as tight as possible.

 

[pinto]

I see where pinto says 7:30 start

SOrry, I wasn't on forum today to answer ... I don't know what time their district starts; I was giving hypotheticals based on when our schools start (different district in the same metro area). The bus in HS arrives at about 7, in junior high at about 7:30.

 

[Eireannach]

A big thanks, Eireannach -- there's nothing like having one's actual boots on the ground, so to speak. Your point about her hood was a good one, too.

And how long would it take to quietly & quickly walk up behind her, your car close with maybe the door open, to put your hand or a rag or duct tape in your hand up to her mouth & nose, grab her and put her in the car? 10 seconds or less? Make sure the child-lock is ON so that she can't open the back door (and if she was drugged, she'd be out).

Did he follow her home one day, or watch her leave for school one day & plot out just the spot where he would grab her? It's possible.

Your scenario makes a lot of sense to me. And it's so darn sad.

Sadly, that's about how I'd have expected it to go down. I had never been down Jessica's particular street until after, but I knew the general layout of that part of the neighborhood, and it was not a surprise to me that her abduction went unseen. It's just hard to visualize it even with Google street view or whatever. Unless you have been on the streets here, it's hard to see.

 

[Eireannach]

I think it's quite possible. I've looked at the route from the Austin Sigg home to Austin's first stop (brother's school) to Austin's Mortuary school, and I can't see any reason why Austin would be on Jessica's street ... yet, as he drove past her, he was right away turning around to kidnap, assault, murder and dismember her ... grab her from behind with that intention. He had it all planned out and perhaps it would have been a different child if it hadn't been Jessica, perhaps Jessica was the first target ... hard to say ... but there's no doubt that he would have continued if he had gotten away with this murder, just like he did after the Ketner Lake Park abduction ... he got away with it, but left DNA behind at the attempted rape (I think charges related to the kidnapper include attempted sexual assault ... need a link to the charges ... anyone?).

I totally agree. He had no reason to ever be on her street. It's not direct, it's adjacent to better routes leaving the neighborhood, he lives off of one of those direct routes, Jessica's street wasn't on the way to or from the High School. I think he was trolling the neighborhood looking for a victim.

 

[tlcya]

Originally Posted by beach Mod message

Thanks because this whole debate that has turned into bickering over Autism/Asperger's left me clueless.

Just let it go. I would say it is okay for discussion and speculation, but when the bickering starts and voiced by non-verified professionals, the discussion stops.

I'm sure many of you have personal experiences on which you base your opinions, but there seems to be no respect for those with different viewpoints.

So, unless we get confirmation that Sigg was indeed diagnosed with Autism/Asperger's that line of discussion needs to stop. Completely derailing the thread and causing problems between members.

Mods are busy bees in the Political Pavilion tonight with election results rolling in.

Last warning about this discussion. The thread will be locked if it continues to be a problem.

Bump as needed. Alerts are appreciated. Thanks.

*This post lands at random

 

[KaaBoom]

No, I saw it in person. There is a sidewalk right next to the fence. The fence is on the same side of the road as her house. The park is on the opposite side of the road. The fence I was referring to was before you get to the park, and I think you can see it in your picture, but before the area you have circled, about where you have home written. You can also see where the sidewalk next to the fence looks a lighter color than the street.

There is no sidewalk next to any of those fences. Of course that wouldn't necessarily have stopped her from walking next to them anyway, if there was no cars parked there.

[ame="http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=39.891201,-105.113239&spn=0.019954,0.038409&t=m&z=15&layer=c&cbll=39.891064,-105.113162&panoid=Tbnyu0dMkmsyQsi4jukyDA&cbp=12,127.95,,0,-0.21"]http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=39.891201,-105.113239&spn=0.019954,0.038409&t=m&z=15&layer=c&cbll=39.891064,-105.113162&panoid=Tbnyu0dMkmsyQsi4jukyDA&cbp=12,127.95,,0,-0.21[/ame]

 

[otto]

Sorry if posted already.

Defense team wants Sigg tried as a juvenile

Tue Nov 6, 2012

Excerpt: "Professor of Law at the University of Colorado Law School in Boulder, Aya Gruber, said although the defense is taking this approach, in her opinion, Sigg would still end up being tried as an adult. She said due to the fact that he is on the cusp of being an adult at the age of 17, and because of the nature of the extremely violent crime he is being charged with, she would guess the judge will decide on adult court, rather than juvenile court.

“Sigg is faced with first-degree murder, a class one felony, so I would be very surprised if this were to make it back in juvenile court,” she said."

http://www.ourcoloradonews.com/arva...cle_50927a34-f75a-5252-987d-c9d284f77862.html

That makes sense ... this comes down to sentencing: whether he is sentenced as an adult or a youth. He has confessed and there is sufficient evidence to independently prove that he is guilty of murdering Jessica and attacking a woman 5 months ealier in May. The only question is the length of his sentence.

He needs to keep this in youth court to minimize the sentence ... and that, to me, seems to be the only argument in this case. Foregoing a trial may buy Austin favors, but taking this to trial will result with Austin in a cage for the duration of his life ... even with the possibility of parole.

 

[otto]

There is no sidewalk next to any of those fences. Of course that wouldn't necessarily have stopped her from walking next to them anyway, if there was no cars parked there.

Thanks

There appears to be a sidewalk on the park side of the road.

So ... are you are saying that the "home side" of the road does not have a sidewalk? That's what I see in the aerial photos.

If Jessica was walking on the road, not sidewalk, and on her side there was a long fence, in front and behind, that reminds me of the Lyric and Elizabeth situation ... a long fence ... trapped in the middle.

 

[KaaBoom]

I lived 0.8 miles from my elementary school and 1.1 miles from my high school, and I had a bus every year. No cost, either. It surprises me to hear about areas where buses are rare, because they are everywhere here in the late afternoon M-F.

I must have been lucky too. Most of the schools I went to had bus service. The closest I lived and received a bus ride was 0.4 miles in elementary school. It was winter only though (no service in the fall and spring). Another was 0.6 miles all seasons. In high school I had a 2 mile bus ride.

I believe that because of budget cuts over the decades, probably most of that service is probably not provided today, or maybe they maybe even charge for it.

 

[GrainneDhu]

I'm still currently trying to locate the statutes concerning the affirmitive defense of insanity in CO.

Just out of curiosity. We won't know if that's what his defense plans until he is arraigned and formally charged. IMHO.

As I said I haven't found them yet, if someone has a link to them please feel free to throw them on the thread!

I don't think they will go this way and there are several reasons why but foremost it would be hard to demonstrate that he was impaired to such an extent that he did not know right from wrong. IMHO the crime not only fits the legal definition of premeditation but exceeds it in that I do think he, without any doubt, (at the very least) made a conscious choice to abduct her and sexually assault her. The subsequent murder and dismemberment, may or may not have been planned in advance, but shows an intent to conceal the first two crimes. (at the very least).

He is going to do hard time. JMHO

I looked it up upthread and don't have the oomph to look it up again.

The summary, as I recall, is that the defendant has to be insane in such a way that precludes being insane due to deliberately ingesting some substance (so bath salts wouldn't count) and that they were unable to tell right from wrong at the time the crime(s) occurred.

M'Naghten rule, basically.

 

[otto]

I totally agree. He had no reason to ever be on her street. It's not direct, it's adjacent to better routes leaving the neighborhood, he lives off of one of those direct routes, Jessica's street wasn't on the way to or from the High School. I think he was trolling the neighborhood looking for a victim.

BBM

He was attending college ... a technical school, like all colleges, not a university. He dropped out of high school, yet had the qualifications to attend college.

The fact that he had no reason to be on that road at that time of day suggests to me that he had indeed followed her, or known that a young girl lived on that street and may be walking to school at that time of day. If this was some sort of roofer or construction worker, we'd say that the guy noticed her walking to school because he was working in the neighborhood ... I think that Austin also noticed young girls walking to school at that time of day, and I suspect that he knew there was a young girl that walked alone on Moore and 107.

Clearly he was on that street for no good reason because ... as soon as he saw Jessica he turned his car around and grapped her from behind, he must have had means of restraint (hog tie) when he drove down that out-of-the-way street, and he must have had a weapon ... dismemberment ... knife.

 

[otto]

I looked it up upthread and don't have the oomph to look it up again.

The summary, as I recall, is that the defendant has to be insane in such a way that precludes being insane due to deliberately ingesting some substance (so bath salts wouldn't count) and that they were unable to tell right from wrong at the time the crime(s) occurred.

M'Naghten rule, basically.

Doesn't covering one's tracks preclude the argument of not knowing right from wrong? Dismemberment screams covering one's tracks.

 

[KaaBoom]

Sorry if posted already.

Defense team wants Sigg tried as a juvenile

Tue Nov 6, 2012

Excerpt: "Professor of Law at the University of Colorado Law School in Boulder, Aya Gruber, said although the defense is taking this approach, in her opinion, Sigg would still end up being tried as an adult. She said due to the fact that he is on the cusp of being an adult at the age of 17, and because of the nature of the extremely violent crime he is being charged with, she would guess the judge will decide on adult court, rather than juvenile court.

“Sigg is faced with first-degree murder, a class one felony, so I would be very surprised if this were to make it back in juvenile court,” she said."

http://www.ourcoloradonews.com/arva...cle_50927a34-f75a-5252-987d-c9d284f77862.html

What a waste of time. Sounds like just a way for lawyers to make some extra money, and delaying the case for a month. They already know that he is going to be tried as an adult. Get on with the trial. It will probably take years before he is convicted anyway.

 

[catswhiskers]

In Australia, school buses are unusual.

The kids get to school under their own steam.

The only kids who would get free transport are the Aboriginal kids, or disabled kids.

They would usually rock up in a taxi.

It depends where in Australia you live. In large towns and regional areas that aren't serviced by any public transport, school buses are the norm. And all children within a certain distance range are eligible to catch them to their closest public school. I'm a teacher in Qld and 6 different buses (all different routes) service our school of just under 300 students - afternoon bus duty is not one of my favourite things anic:

 

[TobyWong*]

http://www.coloradoconnection.com/news/story.aspx?id=817133

The source said Sigg told police he drove by Jessica Ridgeway on the morning of October 5th, turned his car around, grabbed her, brought her into the car where he hog-tied her and then he strangled her to death.

I wonder if he knew Moore circled into 107th? If he saw her as she got to the park and saw her cut thru then he could've just continued on the street to take that and meet her on the other side of park as she came back onto the street at 107th.
If he saw her after she exited the park and the 107th & Moore is the area she was taken then I think he saw her then turned around in one of those lilttle culdesac's(sp?) that have a couple houses. I cant see him seeing her then making a 3 point turn or driveway turn. well anything is possible.

I do not think asking where friend and dad were parked or lived is sleuthing them, I have no question in my mind who the suspect is, I think having exact locations helps us determine where she could've been taken. Plus I need to know the how why and where's these are the images I use to tell my children what can happen and look how easy.

so glad the maps are coming out. I really want to know where she was, how far she got, what kind of scenario was in play. At first I thought she was grabbed alot closer to her home, now I'm open to it being on the other side of park. This is why I want to know where she was headed. It makes a differnce whether she would cut thru park or stay on street and walk around Moore to reach her destination.

p.s OT: I think WS should have a map making tutorial sessions in the basement or something, would be great to teach some of us how to do those nifty thngs some of you do. That or you all need to crawl in my head to see what I'm thinking when I visualize a map

 

[TobyWong*]

I wonder if she was supposed to cut thur park then why not take what looks like a direct sidewalk path behind her home to the park.?